Sidemount vs BM the fun factor

[phillip1]

In all this talk about SM is safer, no BM is cause xy or z, it is an established fact that SM and BM are both viable configurations with advantages and disadvantages, but really though both are trying and tested and are both safe and work well.
Ok so what about the fun factor?

All thing's being equal, I find SM way more fun than BM.
I want to explore caves and dive with my friends and have fun, I am not all serious and "technical" were everything has to be one way or the other cause that's how the "Establishment" says it should be.

As long as I am just as safe or safer and just as efficient or better in my configuration, I will go with the more fun option and so far for me after trying both extensively that is SM.:diver

[Kelly Jessop]

I consider cave diving to be "fun",but the tools I use,be it BM or SM decide the level of fun. For example if I am in a bedding plane with BM,then my level of fun is low because of the tight fit and damage to the cave. If there is a fissure type cave,then SM is less fun because I am spending my time on my side,and breathing wet,in this case BM is the best choice. I see people who make the transition to SM and say they will never go back to BM,but miss the point of BM still being a valuable tool,and you have weakened you level as a cave diver by abandoning a set of tools.

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with Kelly - there is room for both and if you only dive one configuration exclusivley then you are either less than optimum in certain circumstances or you are not all that varied in your diving.

For example, my last two cave dives were in back mount as they came on the end of a backmount OW wreck/trimix trip in S FL. I could have done the wreck dives in sidemount, but it would not have been as elegant or efficient and I could have hauled all the crap needed to do one type of dving in in back mount and the other in sidemount, but the caves we planned to dive did not require sidemount so it was not worth the extra effort.

In short I have preferences with regard to SM vs BM but I also have priorities based on the requirements of the dive and I have no plans to sacrifice that just to adhere to a specific configuration that would be limiting in a subset of my diving.

[Tegg]

I consider cave diving to be "fun",but the tools I use,be it BM or SM decide the level of fun. For example if I am in a bedding plane with BM,then my level of fun is low because of the tight fit and damage to the cave. If there is a fissure type cave,then SM is less fun because I am spending my time on my side,and breathing wet,in this case BM is the best choice. I see people who make the transition to SM and say they will never go back to BM,but miss the point of BM still being a valuable tool,and you have weakened you level as a cave diver by abandoning a set of tools.

I really haven't found a cave where it is a "BM" only cave. I have found sections and/or restrictions where a sidemounter would need to turn on their side for a period of time (50-100ft or so, which really isn't a big deal). Can you list a cave or two where sidemount would not be a "tool" to choose for a cave dive? Just wondering...

[phillip1]

I disagree with Kelly 99.9%, I dive all kinds of caves in all kinds of conditions and in all my dives I have yet to find one situation in which BM would have been better, SM is far more flexible and works in any situation that BM works in, however there are many many situations in which BM would not work well or even not all be possible.
I am not saying BM is not a viable tool, should I encounter such a situation (the 0.1% I agree with you) I will use BM, it's just that in all the diving I have done I have found zero advantages to BM over SM, but many advantages in SM over BM though.
That was not my point, you all know my position on BM vs SM my point was, all things being equal, I find the fun factor to be very important and a deciding factor in what I would dive, I said all things being equal so no I am not forgoing a valuable tool etc..
All I hear about is the safety and technical advantages/disadvantages we all know BM & SM are safe etc.. so what about fun, I find that equally important.

As for BM it is pretty much useless in any UK cave (that's an entire country were BM does not work), BM is useless in pretty much all sumps, it is useless in many tight caves, and it is a logistical hassle in exploration and very limited in flexibility try to find a set of doubles in Bayahibe on the weekend to go cave diving, good luck.
BM is also a major burden or be impossible and useless for people with bad knees/bad backs, however SM can be used efficiently, safely, and with great flexibility and comfort in any situation that I know of, there may be a few very rare exceptions but I can't really think of any really.

Again not my point but the truth is BM to me is just not that much fun, the cave diving part is the best but in BM it's just not the same for me, kind of like surfing the best wave but on a board that is not much fun to ride.

It has been 5 months now without diving and I am really going nuts, I miss SM

[steve626508]

I really haven't found a cave where it is a "BM" only cave. I have found sections and/or restrictions where a sidemounter would need to turn on their side for a period of time (50-100ft or so, which really isn't a big deal). Can you list a cave or two where sidemount would not be a "tool" to choose for a cave dive? Just wondering...

I think that anyone who actually dedicates a "suitable" amount of time into learning sidemount correctly will find it very hard to want to dive in anything other than sidemount equipment configuration. I have personally not donned a backmounted twinset for a little over two years now after learning to sidemount. I do not really see a good reason why I should go back and put one on.

[Dsix36]

I dive a rebreather and thus it is backmount. I find cave diving with it to be very fun. It is even fun when I get stuck learning that I should have been in SM.

SM is in my future, but it won't replace my rebreather. Right tool for the job and all that stuff.

[stairman]

Jughole is funner in sidemount for sure. If I were diving off a boat in the ocean Id prefer backmount, but otherwise for me its sidemount all the way.

[Kelly Jessop]

I really haven't found a cave where it is a "BM" only cave. I have found sections and/or restrictions where a sidemounter would need to turn on their side for a period of time (50-100ft or so, which really isn't a big deal). Can you list a cave or two where sidemount would not be a "tool" to choose for a cave dive? Just wondering...

I agree there are sections that would benefit from one configuration. Upstream Hart from Black Lagoon,and the Zbend of Bonnett are much better done in BM,and make the rest of the cave doable in BM. Turning sideways a big deal? Unfortunately these caves show signs of SM who can't perform this skill,because remember there is a difference between SM and SM configuration.

[phillip1]

I agree there are sections that would benefit from one configuration. Upstream Hart from Black Lagoon,and the Zbend of Bonnett are much better done in BM,and make the rest of the cave doable in BM. Turning sideways a big deal? Unfortunately these caves show signs of SM who can't perform this skill,because remember there is a difference between SM and SM configuration.

There is evidence of damage due to diving in almost all caves everywhere, this has less to do with which config is better but more to do with how good and careful each individual is no matter what configuration they dive, all those broken decorations in Calimba on the ceiling for example, I bet they were 99% due to BM who were not very good with they're technique.

I do agree that SM takes a bit more commitment to learn, it's not just put tanks on your side and you are suddenly SMing, it takes a while to get good and comfortable but the rewards for those willing to spend a bit more time honing thye're skills are great

[Kelly Jessop]

this has less to do with which config is better but more to do with how good and careful each individual is no matter what configuration they dive

I agree with you 99.99% :-) but there are caves that are bedding planes that have the tell tale sign of BM divers going through. This cave attrition is completely due to the wrong configuration. No matter how careful you,this is a function of square peg and a round hole.

[phillip1]

This time I agree with you 100%!,
another thing about SM and fitting into a horizontal rectangle is that you can take off one or both tanks as needed and swing them in front of you making you fit perfectly in any BM type shaped cave, like vertical fractures etc.. , you then have only your body's profile and will fit better than BM anywhere, it is also very easy and comfortable to swim like this too and you can hold both tanks with one hand and keep the other on the line if needed.
It would be impossible to do in BM due to the inflexible nature of BM, I really don't like BM, the more I think about the old days of diving doubles the less I like BM what was I thinking back then!!!.

[jj1987]

I agree with you 99.99% :-) but there are caves that are bedding planes that have the tell tale sign of BM divers going through. This cave attrition is completely due to the wrong configuration. No matter how careful you,this is a function of square peg and a round hole.

You can also tell in Mainland where SM divers have drug tanks through the fissures. I think it's easier in BM. Hart Springs has a few areas like that where you can see SM divers who were too lazy to turn sideways.

Then again, the ice room passage is destroyed from BM'ers not being careful.

[stairman]

Some of the damage thats thought to be from sidemounters could have been by backmounters with stage bottles slung too low too.

[jj1987]

Some of the damage thats thought to be from sidemounters could have been by backmounters with stage bottles slung too low too.

Possibly, but so few BM divers sling a stage on the right side that I don't think it's the case. With Hart, there's no real need to bring a stage down mainline since black lagoon is reachable on backgas alone.

[RN]

Possibly, but so few BM divers sling a stage on the right side that I don't think it's the case. With Hart, there's no real need to bring a stage down mainline since black lagoon is reachable on backgas alone.

And the damage couldn't have been made on the way out?

[Tegg]

Damage will be done to any passage by any diver in any configuration. Just how the cookie crumbles.

[NEON]

This time I agree with you 100%!,
another thing about SM and fitting into a horizontal rectangle is that you can take off one or both tanks as needed and swing them in front of you making you fit perfectly in any BM type shaped cave, like vertical fractures etc.. , you then have only your body's profile and will fit better than BM anywhere, it is also very easy and comfortable to swim like this too and you can hold both tanks with one hand and keep the other on the line if needed.
It would be impossible to do in BM due to the inflexible nature of BM, I really don't like BM, the more I think about the old days of diving doubles the less I like BM what was I thinking back then!!!.

Experience has taught me that it is not easy at all to superman steels (especially both at the same time) for any significant length of time...

[phillip1]

I don't dive steels, but due to the weight I can imagine that would not work or be very hard to do.
But considering the weight I would definitely not BM steels either.

[DA Aquamaster]

It's not the weight of the tanks them selves so much (as there is very little strain on the arms) but rather the long moment arm of the tanks in that position and the impact on your center of gravity and trim. That requires effort in your back and legs to maintain level trim and that can be hard to sustain over any significant distance. It's far easier to just roll on your side and save the superman stuff for tight restrictions where trim is not really the issue.

[phillip1]

Agreed, I was just saying in those "special" shaped caves were BM is the "only" choice you can in SM actually fit even better and slither your way through delicately and in style.

[RN]

It's not the weight of the tanks them selves so much (as there is very little strain on the arms) but rather the long moment arm of the tanks in that position and the impact on your center of gravity and trim. That requires effort in your back and legs to maintain level trim and that can be hard to sustain over any significant distance. It's far easier to just roll on your side and save the superman stuff for tight restrictions where trim is not really the issue.

If done properly, there's really not that much effort at all.

[Tegg]

FYI, some of us sidemounters have figured out a way to easily be "backmount profile" for extended periods of time with no real effort... it's called waist D-rings...

[NEON]

If done properly, there's really not that much effort at all.

What is the proper way? I have tried it with steels and it takes quite a bit more effort than with aluminiums.

[RN]

What is the proper way? I have tried it with steels and it takes quite a bit more effort than with aluminiums.

I was referring specifically to DA's statement: That requires effort in your back and legs to maintain level trim and that can be hard to sustain over any significant distance. I don't expend any effort in my back or legs, even when I push a set of 108s out in front of me.

[DA Aquamaster]

I was referring specifically to DA's statement: That requires effort in your back and legs to maintain level trim and that can be hard to sustain over any significant distance. I don't expend any effort in my back or legs, even when I push a set of 108s out in front of me.Well would you like to enlighted folks or did just just drop by to be an ass? I'm all ears...

[SuPrBuGmAn]

FYI, some of us sidemounters have figured out a way to easily be "backmount profile" for extended periods of time with no real effort... it's called waist D-rings...

Shhhhh, don't tell anyone... now all the BM caves are gonna be filled with them damned SM divers. :P

[diveongas]

I was referring specifically to DA's statement: That requires effort in your back and legs to maintain level trim and that can be hard to sustain over any significant distance. I don't expend any effort in my back or legs, even when I push a set of 108s out in front of me.


Well would you like to enlighted folks or did just just drop by to be an ass? I'm all ears...



No effort at all, eh?!! This screams out for a challenge. I didn't realize what a "no-mount fool" Rob must be. Perhaps a swim test. He could drop in no-mount (set of 108s, in front of you, like you said) into Orange Grove and one mile later, pop out at Peacock, just a 90minute swim.

I mean you could probably go the distance based on gas, Rob. Surely, you won't plow the floor even once, at the beginning, when those tanks will be ooohhh-soooooo heavy, and certainly you won't bang the ceiling even once, at the end, when their butts start to get light. Why, we could even have folks go along to observe and grade you for trim, along the way.

Jim Charles

[phillip1]

With steel I have no idea but with al tanks it is little to no effort at all to have both tanks swung in front and held with the same hand, plus SM is way better for many other secret things too.