Requirements for OW Sidemount Training

[Tegg]

(Since I screwed up in the vortex thread and did not split the discussion properly, I am starting this thread.)

Should there be requirements for an OW diver that would like to take a full sidemount course, or should sidemount even be taught as an OW specialty?

[adam0321]

I can not speak inteligently on this not being a side mount diver(not yet) but I see no real benefit for a ow diver to dive sm.

[adam0321]

ok let the bullets fly. I also think you should have to start off cave diving in BM

[diveconjeff]

The instance comes to mind when diving from a small boat and not having doubles readily available, it would have been a nice option compared to one tank BM and the other slung

Some of the smaller boats can be very challenging to revised in doubles. Tag lining two tanks also seems like a nice option to hauling in doubles

[sskasser]

I think that an adult should be free to train in whatever subject he likes, be it sidemount SCUBA, bungee jumping, blackpowder shooting, or high speed auto racing. Banning a particular gear configuration from a diver's training starts down that slippery slope of the nanny state.

If not teaching someone sidemount keeps them safer because they won't be tempted to go where they're not ready, then not teaching them SCUBA at all keeps them even safer. Next, someone will tell me that teaching kids about condoms makes them more likely to have sex. I mean, if we didn't teach them, they SURELY wouldn't be hitting it in the back seat, right?

Right off the bat, during the paperwork stage, my OW students are required to watch a "Deceptively Easy Way to Die" with me followed by discussion of specific incidents. They are shown a grim reaper sign and told that if they look up and see anything but open water over their head, they are literally "in over their head."

I believe the SM instructor is in a unique position to drive that message home even harder to a student who may be thinking those things. Sadly, not all students listen. Not all that kack themselves in SM even took a SM class, either.

Just because a particular person doesn't see a need for SM in anything but narrowly defined situations, doesn't mean everybody else doesn't either. Freedom of choice, it's an awesome thing.

[caverkevin]

I think it's important that there is a certification course with standards. IANTD has a OW sidemount. This ways instructors can offer this type of training.

Should divers be restricted from diving sidemount if they don't have a card from XYZ agency stating they have been trained in OW sidemount. Personally don't see a good reason for that type of restriction.

[Jay]

ok let the bullets fly. I also think you should have to start off cave diving in BM

I agree with that with few exceptions, but that should and would make a nice seperate thread discussion. Pull the fresh scabs off the SM/BM wars.

On-topic: I haven't looked at the requirements lately (shame on me, need to do my updates!!) but I believe it is about single tank, which is another way to be cool and get another card.
I believe the actual requirements are a pulse, some cash and a picture.

[mstueven]

(Since I screwed up in the vortex thread and did not split the discussion properly, I am starting this thread.)

Should there be requirements for an OW diver that would like to take a full sidemount course, or should sidemount even be taught as an OW specialty?

Diving with more than one tank as your primary gas supply, whether sidemount or backmount, means added task loading and complexity. I see a difference between an OW diver interested in sidemount, which I would not personally support, as opposed to a technical diver choosing to sidemount in OW, which I completely support. Having the potentially large extra gas supply means longer / deeper dives with potential for penetration outside of recreational limits. Managing multiple tanks requires attention to detail that your 'typical' recreational diver isn't interested in.

That being said, I believe a good instructor will cover these issues during training, and that any decision to violate the rules still falls back on the individual diver - and often is a component of the diver's personality or motivation regardless of anything we might or might not suggest to them in the interests of safety. Back-mounted doubles are often introduced at the deep specialty level for open water divers and the same arguments can be made there as to whether or not that's a 'good idea.'

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Requirement for OW sidemount? A sensible attitude.


If a nonsensible diver is going to wedge him/herself into some small tight silty hole with sidemount gear; I'll argue they'd do the same thing in BM gear in some marginally larger silty hole.

The fact is, an OW diver in either configuration shouldn't be in overhead.

[cavediver256]

I am waiting to hear just one good reason for an OW Sidemount course........just one !!!! MSTUEVEN hit the nail on the head !!!!! Task loading, gas management, etc all add to the complexity diving SM. If a student isn't willing to do the dives and put in the required time to gain the appropriate skills, experience and prerequisite courses, then why the hell are they diving anyway??? Just so they can look cool in front of all their friends???? Why would anyone even consider teaching someone with that attitude?????

Now lets get the health issue topic on the table..... I am dying to hear just one good reason for OW SM from a health issue. Give me one example of where taking two tanks to the water is easier than making the trip once with AL tank.

OK now the traveling issue......dive a single tank....if you require more than a single tank, you should already have technical training, and the necessary skills to dive SM.

If you want to dive doubles, in ANY configuration, then get the training.....I would think at a minimum of a Deco Procedures Course and all the courses that precede it.

[TONY CHANEY]

I think that since we are on this site we tend to view everything as overhead enviroment. I currently BM but am putting together a SM kit. Why? For going to places where doubles are not readily available. Now, as far as taking a class on how to sidemount. I truly believe that you can learn so much more, faster mastery and saving money by taking a class. To make it a required cert.? No way.

[MORGAN]

I think that an adult should be free to train in whatever subject he likes, be it sidemount SCUBA, bungee jumping, blackpowder shooting, or high speed auto racing. Banning a particular gear configuration from a diver's training starts down that slippery slope of the nanny state.

Freedom of choice, it's an awesome thing.

Yup! Well said.

Mike

[Slüdge]

it would have been a nice option compared to one tank BM and the other slung

I have experience with both, and if the low profile of SM isn't needed, I'd a thousand times rather have one cylinder backmounted and one stage.

But that's just me.

[adam0321]

so no one thinks that thee should be a building block process for the mounting techniques? S what if I want to start cave diving and want to start with no mount?

[adam0321]

I am not a die hard bm guy and am building a SM kit. I am also not a die hard "all should back mount first guy" but I think it is a bit more basic then sidemount.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Redundancy? Whats wrong with it?

SM OW is not an OW class, its just a class you take after OW, for a different configuration. Just like there are classes for doubles, drysuits, and all other such nonsense.



If I knew I'd be diving SM before cave classes, I would have been diving them in OW well before putting them in OH. I never intended to dive a single tank in OH, so I sures hell don't want to do my training that way, thats borderline retarted.



If someone wants to dive two tanks in OW, why NOT? I still contend that stupid people will be stupid despite how many, or where, the tanks are they wear.

[phillip1]

I am waiting to hear just one good reason for an OW Sidemount course........just one !!!! MSTUEVEN hit the nail on the head !!!!! Task loading, gas management, etc all add to the complexity diving SM. If a student isn't willing to do the dives and put in the required time to gain the appropriate skills, experience and prerequisite courses, then why the hell are they diving anyway??? Just so they can look cool in front of all their friends???? Why would anyone even consider teaching someone with that attitude?????

Now lets get the health issue topic on the table..... I am dying to hear just one good reason for OW SM from a health issue. Give me one example of where taking two tanks to the water is easier than making the trip once with AL tank.



OK now the traveling issue......dive a single tank....if you require more than a single tank, you should already have technical training, and the necessary skills to dive SM.


If you want to dive doubles, in ANY configuration, then get the training.....I would think at a minimum of a Deco Procedures Course and all the courses that precede it.

I find walking around with doubles a real hassle especially on uneven rocks and stuff. Two lighter trips is far easier than one very heavy one, not to mention I also had ACL surgery so I would not even try to walk around in doubles ever again, I am assuming there are many people who have bad knees and stuff and that alone is good enough for me.
Also I find SM way more relaxing than BM diving and the medical world unanimously agrees that relaxing and reducing stress is good for your overall health. And SM puts me in a good mood and makes me much happy... and it's more fun.

As for the two tank thing and OW, I agree 100% more than two tanks is not OW level training at all.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I am not a die hard bm guy and am building a SM kit. I am also not a die hard "all should back mount first guy" but I think it is a bit more basic then sidemount.

If swapping a regulator a few times during a dive is "complex"(not basic), you probably shouldn't be in a cave in any configuration.

[cavediver256]

I find walking around with doubles a real hassle especially on uneven rocks and stuff. Two lighter trips is far easier than one very heavy one, not to mention I also had ACL surgery so I would not even try to walk around in doubles ever again, I am assuming there are many people who have bad knees and stuff and that alone is good enough for me.
Also I find SM way more relaxing than BM diving and the medical world unanimously agrees that relaxing and reducing stress is good for your overall health. And SM puts me in a good mood and makes me much happy... and it's more fun.

As for the two tank thing and OW, I agree 100% more than two tanks is not OW level training at all.

And at your level of the game Phillip, I understand you needing/wanting SM. We are not talking about cave/technical diving, we are talking about OW non-technical diving here.....how/where would SM be more beneficial that a single AL tank ??????

[adam0321]

I couldnt agree more. LIke I said I am on the fence. I guess the problem is when I first started cave dving i viewed SM as an ADVANSED skill. not so much the more I dive.

[adam0321]

well if you are diving OW off a boat and anything other then a single al the dive master hates you..

[jj1987]

I think that because we've had massive push dives done on BM, there's a standard configuration that works for 99% of back mount dives. It's well tested, there's books that focus on it, and it's easy to meet team members who match up well.

With side mount, I've found it's much harder to find someone who has all the answers up front. It's much more of an adjustment dive by dive, with very little symmetry between various divers. I've also noticed that many SM caves are much more dangerous than the BM caves, and when it comes to complete silt outs, sometimes new divers don't have the experience it takes to see them coming. I know i had 10ft viz at telford on exit and was baffled at how bad it was, and after gaining some experience in places like that, I've learned that 10ft viz is actually really good for a lot of caves.

I think there's a huge value in allowing a diver to learn a skill in a gear configuration that is essentially standard. I know that trying to do things "my own way" convoluted my backmount setup and once I adopted a more standard backmount configuration things became instantly easier and allowed me to focus on diving rather than gear.

By learning BM and SM, you can match what the dive requires, and not have to deal with diving mixed teams.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

...how/where would SM be more beneficial that a single AL tank ??????

Its still a redundant airsource, overhead or not doesn't change that.

It could be the diver has aspirations ot get into technical diving and wanted experience in the configuration previous to class, don't read as diving beyond his current skillset.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

well if you are diving OW off a boat and anything other then a single al the dive master hates you..

If he's open about it, he'll hate my tip too.

[adam0321]

this is why I dont buy into the idea of once I start side mounting I will break up and sell all my BM stuff

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You don't HAVE to sidemount at all, thats the beauty of freedom.

[cavediver256]

Its still a redundant airsource, overhead or not doesn't change that.

It could be the diver has aspirations ot get into technical diving and wanted experience in the configuration previous to class, don't read as diving beyond his current skillset.

Matt I agree it is still a redundant airsource, so is a spareair, so is keeping in OW where the surface is a viable option for a redundant airsource.........we are talking NON-technical diving here.....no cave, no cavern, no deco, no wreck penetration.

My question "how/where would SM be more beneficial than a single AL tank?????" was a question of medical benefit....Personally, if a single AL 80 is whipping someone's ass, maybe trying to dive two of them (in any configuration) is a bad idea.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I am waiting to hear just one good reason for an OW Sidemount course........just one !!!! MSTUEVEN hit the nail on the head !!!!! Task loading, gas management, etc all add to the complexity diving SM. If a student isn't willing to do the dives and put in the required time to gain the appropriate skills, experience and prerequisite courses, then why the hell are they diving anyway??? Just so they can look cool in front of all their friends???? Why would anyone even consider teaching someone with that attitude?????

Now lets get the health issue topic on the table..... I am dying to hear just one good reason for OW SM from a health issue. Give me one example of where taking two tanks to the water is easier than making the trip once with AL tank.

OK now the traveling issue......dive a single tank....if you require more than a single tank, you should already have technical training, and the necessary skills to dive SM.

If you want to dive doubles, in ANY configuration, then get the training.....I would think at a minimum of a Deco Procedures Course and all the courses that precede it.
You appear to be making some assumptions here.

I'm interested in learning sidemount diving for OW. At present I have over 2,600 dives, several hundred in BM doubles (I own two sets of HP119's), am full trimix certified, have done dives down to 240 fsw, penetrated wrecks (certified NAUI wreck penetration), am Full Cave certified, dive regularly in cold, low-vis, often high-current conditions.

I have one good reason for an OW Sidemount course ... because I want to. It's as much about the experience as anything else.

Why should I need to give you ... or anybody else ... any reason other than that.

Why would you assume that just because someone wants to learn Sidemount that are somehow trying to get out of being properly trained ... or that if I want to learn sidemount that I should have to restrict myself to using it in a cave?

Maybe you should get out of the cave every once in a while ... you might discover that there are other environments that people dive in ... and many of those people are every bit as skilled and knowledgeable in their environment as you are in yours ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

in a pure ow enviorment I cant think of one.

[NWGratefulDiver]

well if you are diving OW off a boat and anything other then a single al the dive master hates you..
... in my neck of the pond, when you dive off a boat there IS NO divemaster ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

hmmm well i was refering to open ocean charters

[gearhound]

Wouldn't an OW environment be better place to learn in than a delicate cave? What's wrong with getting proficient with a technique before going into an overhead environment where it is more dangerous for both the diver and the environment? Learn and practice in OW, and if you feel you're ready, go take a tech or cave course after.

[cavediver256]

Bob, it is obvious that you are more than qualified to do just about anything you want in the water. No doubt about that. However, you have had enough experiences in the water to make an informed decision about whether you would like to try sidemount or not.

My problem is taking an brand new OW diver and putting him into a SM rig with just enough gas to get his ass into some serious trouble, and not enough sense to know it is happening until it is way too late. I would also speculate that some/not all start thinking that because they are dressed like the big boys, they can dive like the big boys......and that attitude could just as easily get some novice (who is dressing the part) into trouble inside a wreck as it could inside a cave......

As far as getting out of the cave every once in a while, the first half of my 20 year diving career was in OW. East coast wrecks, lots of PSD work,etc.....I am well aware of the environments that people dive in.

[NWGratefulDiver]

hmmm well i was refering to open ocean charters

You need more qualification than that ... west coast diving's way different than Florida diving. It can get kinda rough out here, especially in the winter time. Clipping your tanks to a lanyard and hauling your ass onto the boat without them is way preferable to trying to get up that ladder in doubles ... or even a single. There's places out here you can only get to in a small boat ... like a RIB. There's places where you're hauling your gear down steep embankments or over boulders to get to the water ... and back up again when you're done diving.

When you've experienced some of those environments, it's easy to look at a sidemount setup as having some advantages. When you haven't experienced them, perhaps it's just hard to imagine why someone would want to.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[cavediver256]

OK let me see if I can clear up my stance on this......am I against SM???? Absolutely not !!! What I am trying to say here is this, throughout MY diving career there has been a natural progression of certifications.....certain certifications have to be acquired before you can progress to the "next level".

IMHO opinion, I don't think SM should be made available to any diver UNTIL he has at least a minimum of one certification that addresses gas management/deco procedures.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Bob, it is obvious that you are more than qualified to do just about anything you want in the water. No doubt about that. However, you have had enough experiences in the water to make an informed decision about whether you would like to try sidemount or not.

My problem is taking an brand new OW diver and putting him into a SM rig with just enough gas to get his ass into some serious trouble, and not enough sense to know it is happening until it is way too late. I would also speculate that some/not all start thinking that because they are dressed like the big boys, they can dive like the big boys......and that attitude could just as easily get some novice (who is dressing the part) into trouble inside a wreck as it could inside a cave......

OK ... I happen to agree with all that. I wouldn't put a new diver in backmount doubles either ... for exactly the same reasons. In fact, I won't even teach a recreational Advanced class to a new diver until they've got sufficient bottom time to comprehend why they're not to be doing deep dives under certain conditions.

Perhaps the use of the term "OW" is what's causing the issue. I don't think an OW Sidemount class is the same as an entry-level diving class ... in this case, OW signifies non-overhead diving.



As far as getting out of the cave every once in a while, the first half of my 20 year diving career was in OW. East coast wrecks, lots of PSD work,etc.....I am well aware of the environments that people dive in.
... in which case, it surprises me that you made such generalized statements ... because I can think of a few places where sidemount could be a very advantageous way to go ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

OK let me see if I can clear up my stance on this......am I against SM???? Absolutely not !!! What I am trying to say here is this, throughout MY diving career there has been a natural progression of certifications.....certain certifications have to be acquired before you can progress to the "next level".

IMHO opinion, I don't think SM should be made available to any diver UNTIL he has at least a minimum of one certification that addresses gas management/deco procedures.

NOW we're talkin' the same language. Gas management is the most important topic that typical recreational instruction doesn't teach. I currently require it in my AOW class, basing it on this article ... http://nwgratefuldiver.com/articles/gas.html ... and offer free gas management seminars to recreational divers who take classes from others who don't teach the subject.

I completely agree that nobody belongs in a doubles rig of ANY configuration until they understand this stuff ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[cavediver256]

OK ... I happen to agree with all that. I wouldn't put a new diver in backmount doubles either ... for exactly the same reasons. In fact, I won't even teach a recreational Advanced class to a new diver until they've got sufficient bottom time to comprehend why they're not to be doing deep dives under certain conditions.

Perhaps the use of the term "OW" is what's causing the issue. I don't think an OW Sidemount class is the same as an entry-level diving class ... in this case, OW signifies non-overhead diving.


... in which case, it surprises me that you made such generalized statements ... because I can think of a few places where sidemount could be a very advantageous way to go ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Just like you Bob, I view SM as a tool to get me into and out of areas that I could not get into or out of with BM. It is simple as that, nothing more, nothing less.

The simple fact is, prior to the Armadillo and Nomad, hardly anyone had ever heard of SM. Now it is a fad and everybody has to have one.....because all the cool kids are doing it. That scares me!!!

[adam0321]

weather its back mount side mount or they are pulling them on a scooter more then one single tank in a BASIC OPEN WATER situation is overkill

[NWGratefulDiver]

Just like you Bob, I view SM as a tool to get me into and out of areas that I could not get into or out of with BM. It is simple as that, nothing more, nothing less.

The simple fact is, prior to the Armadillo and Nomad, hardly anyone had ever heard of SM. Now it is a fad and everybody has to have one.....because all the cool kids are doing it. That scares me!!!

Saw the Armadillo for the first time this past March, when I was up at Port Hardy with Curt Bowen. My first thought was "what a neat idea". I can see how someone might get attracted to that style of diving. I can also see how someone without proper training and/or skills could possibly get themselves in trouble with it, too.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[cavediver256]

Sooooo, here is a question, What type of gas management do you teach to an OW SM student????? (keeping in mind, this is a NON technical certification)

[NWGratefulDiver]

weather its back mount side mount or they are pulling them on a scooter more then one single tank in a BASIC OPEN WATER situation is overkill

Agreed ... does anyone actually teach Basic Open Water (or any other agency's entry level class) in side-mount? I've never seen it, but SM isn't all that popular here. Back-mount doubles are very popular here ... but nobody I have ever heard of teaches their entry-level students in them.

As I alluded to earlier ... I think there's some confusion over the "OW" in OW Sidemount ... I don't think they're referring to PADI's entry-level class. I think they're referring to non-overhead diving in general.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

well I agree but I also think that most of us consider someone who is not cave/tech trained as being intro/basic

[Corbett]

"open water" and "sidemount" diving are like water and oil, they don't mix.

O/W is recreational diving with max depths of 130ft. and no deco. No overhead environment.
Sidemount is technical diving.

[cavediver256]

"open water" and "sidemount" diving are like water and oil, they don't mix.

O/W is recreational diving with max depths of 130ft. and no deco. No overhead environment.
Sidemount is technical diving.

Well now that is the question of the day...... Is it ??? Maybe we should do a poll on the opinion of whether SM configuration is technical or is it fine for OW divers????

[jj1987]

Sooooo, here is a question, What type of gas management do you teach to an OW SM student????? (keeping in mind, this is a NON technical certification)

Typically in OW classes you don't teach them any. My OW instructor certainly didn't.

[NWGratefulDiver]

"open water" and "sidemount" diving are like water and oil, they don't mix.

O/W is recreational diving with max depths of 130ft. and no deco. No overhead environment.
Sidemount is technical diving.

Oh dear me ... another "what is technical" thread ... :roll:

I'm on a trip to a place that's famous for world-class wall diving. My dive plan is to go to no more than 120 fsw and work my way up the wall. The plan is for no deco ... I'll be spending at least half my dive above 60 fsw ... but the bottom time will be on the order of 90-100 minutes. I'm packing a camera and planning the dive solo.

Am I a technical diver or a recreational diver?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

i would say rec.

[cavediver256]

Typically in OW classes you don't teach them any. My OW instructor certainly didn't.


So your fresh out of a OW course, and you wanna learn SM. So you find a PADI instructor with the credentials to teach you SM, buy two LP 120s and a Tusa regulator off of Ebay, and show up for class.....

You are telling me with 240 cuft of gas, you aren't gonna teach someone a little gas management other than "end your dive with 500psi"???? Is that in one tank, 500/tank, or 250/tank????

RIGHT !!!!!!! I guess gas management would have to be part of that course.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Sooooo, here is a question, What type of gas management do you teach to an OW SM student????? (keeping in mind, this is a NON technical certification)

As I mentioned earlier, I teach gas management at a level similar to the article I linked to earlier at the AOW level. In the entry-level class (NAUI calls it "Scuba Diver") I make my students aware of what gas management is and why it's important. At this level I want them working on buoyancy control, trim, propulsion and buddy awareness. Once they're comfortable with those skills, we'll introduce them to others. I teach gas management at AOW because that's where we introduce deeper diving ... and that's what'll get the open water recreational diver in trouble if they're not paying attention.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

so anything below 130' is considered tech? what about night or navigation dives?

[NWGratefulDiver]

So your fresh out of a OW course, and you wanna learn SM. So you find a PADI instructor with the credentials to teach you SM, buy two LP 120s and a Tusa regulator off of Ebay, and show up for class.....

... do you guys really know an instructor who would agree to train that student in that rig? I sure don't ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

would a diver diving a sccr be tech or a ccr

[Corbett]

Oh dear me ... another "what is technical" thread ... :roll:

I'm on a trip to a place that's famous for world-class wall diving. My dive plan is to go to no more than 120 fsw and work my way up the wall. The plan is for no deco ... I'll be spending at least half my dive above 60 fsw ... but the bottom time will be on the order of 90-100 minutes. I'm packing a camera and planning the dive solo.

Am I a technical diver or a recreational diver?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sounds technical to me. 100 minutes total with a max depth of 120, Solo, and a camera?
What's that 29%? (of course both tanks need to be almost exactly the same)

Just remember to start your ascent with 700 psi and don't forget your 3-5 minute safety stop.

[Slüdge]

About half of the sidemount divers I see do it either to get into tight places of because they have trouble walking with doubles.

The other half seem to be doing it because it's the config du jour.

At least that's the way I see it. But whichever category a person is in, it's a free country.

[adam0321]

your not cool unless you side mount right?? I sometimes feel like being a back mount diver= new cave diver

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Matt I agree it is still a redundant airsource, so is a spareair, so is keeping in OW where the surface is a viable option for a redundant airsource.........we are talking NON-technical diving here.....no cave, no cavern, no deco, no wreck penetration.

I would always consider a viable redundant air source a better option than a CESA, and still better than what little usable gas a spare air would provide. This, even in an OW, no deco, purely non-technical environment; all still applies.

[Corbett]

About half of the sidemount divers I see do it either to get into tight places of because they have trouble walking with doubles.

The other half seem to be doing it because it's the config du jour.

At least that's the way I see it. But whichever category a person is in, it's a free country.

Right on!

O/W & AOW still have 100ft./130ft. limits respectively. No deco, no multiple tanks, buddy system.

Again "sidemount" has no mention in recreational open water SCUBA diving.

[adam0321]

the only good use I have seen for a spai air is for helo pilots

[SuPrBuGmAn]

weather its back mount side mount or they are pulling them on a scooter more then one single tank in a BASIC OPEN WATER situation is overkill

Why? Redundancy doesn't count in OW?


Sooooo, here is a question, What type of gas management do you teach to an OW SM student????? (keeping in mind, this is a NON technical certification)

The same kind, rock bottom times, and NDLs. OW diver will likely have lots of extra gas after the dive, but there's no harm in that.

[adam0321]

so at what point is redundancy technical?

[NWGratefulDiver]

Sounds technical to me. 100 minutes total with a max depth of 120, Solo, and a camera?
What's that 29%? (of course both tanks need to be almost exactly the same)

Just remember to start your ascent with 700 psi and don't forget your 3-5 minute safety stop.

:smt102

There ya go ... I guess at this point I just have to shake my head and conclude that we don't have enough in common to even discuss it intelligently.

But no ... by your own definition it's a recreational dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

so at what point is redundancy technical?

Who says technical diving has the monopoly on redundancy?

Technical diving has to do with the dives at hand, not the existance of redundant equipment/gas(or even brain).

[NWGratefulDiver]

so at what point is redundancy technical?

Redundancy has nothing to do with technical ... lots of purely recreational divers choose to carry a redundant system, whether it's a back-mounted pony, a slung 40, or doubles. Their choices are based on their environment, their training, their comfort zone, and their personal preferences.

Technical diving isn't about equipment ... it's about profile, planning, preparation, and performance. A huge part of technical training isn't about equipment or skills at all ... it's about your mental approach to the dive. That's what tells me, more than anything, that the Vortex casualty had no technical training. Nobody who does would've taken that dive so casually ... no matter what gear they were using.

Redundant gas source is just another tool. Having the tool means nothing ... how you use it determines the type of diver you are ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[adam0321]

so is a open water diver diving double 108's and 2 al 80's side slung for the sake of redundancy still a recreational diver?

[mstueven]

so at what point is redundancy technical?

I was taught that if your dive plan includes using more than one tank / regulator, it's technical. If your pony or spare-air is just a back-up in the event of an emergency, it's recreational.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Sure, its a stupid amount of redundancy, but they may be trying to gain profficiency before getting into technical diving. Just because they have all that gas, doesn't mean they're using it.

[harmstrong]

I also had ACL surgery so I would not even try to walk around in doubles ever again, I am assuming there are many people who have bad knees and stuff and that alone is good enough for me.


I had my ACL reconstructed (allograft) in 2001. I have humped many a set of doubles up and down hills, steps and boat ladders since then. The problem with ACL's is rotational, you want to avoid planting the foot and rotating at the knee- carrying weight won't bother it at all- it's probably good for the health of the knee- just like squats and the stair master are.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I was taught that if your dive plan includes using more than one tank / regulator, it's technical. If your pony or spare-air is just a back-up in the event of an emergency, it's recreational.

Pumped LP108 vs a pair of double LP45s? Double 72s? The difference in gas is negligable.

[mstueven]

Pumped LP108 vs a pair of double LP45s? Double 72s? The difference in gas is negligable.

Absolutely. And I would prefer diving a small set of doubles in many cases to diving a single big HP tank, because I like to have options. But I wouldn't suggest the same to my open water trained buddies without suggesting they take an introduction to technical diving class that included gas management, valve drills, and such. But those same buddies diving the Spiegel Grove might well carry a spare air in case they needed it.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I was taught that if your dive plan includes using more than one tank / regulator, it's technical. If your pony or spare-air is just a back-up in the event of an emergency, it's recreational.

Out of curiosity, what agency teaches that?

Personally, I think it's a silly distinction.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Corbett]

:smt102

There ya go ... I guess at this point I just have to shake my head and conclude that we don't have enough in common to even discuss it intelligently.

But no ... by your own definition it's a recreational dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

O.K. how about from a practical point of view... I don't have a "O/W sidemount" box to check.

Personally I don't care. I am just trying to defend recreational training standards.

[NWGratefulDiver]

so is a open water diver diving double 108's and 2 al 80's side slung for the sake of redundancy still a recreational diver?

Could be ... if they're doing skills practice in 40 feet of water preparing for a Tech 2 class, for example.

I was in 20 feet of water when this picture was taken. By all accounts that's a recreational dive.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257/NWGratefulDiver/CIMG7438.jpg

Now granted we were coming off a 210 foot dive previously ... but figured since we had all that gear out there we might as well go back out and play ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

O.K. how about from a practical point of view... I don't have a "O/W sidemount" box to check.

Personally I don't care. I am just trying to defend recreational training standards.

... and I was just trying to show you the fallacy of your definition of a recreational dive ...

Look ... the point is all these distinctions about who's wearing what gear, etc. etc. etc. are just silly. The boundaries between recreational and technical are both artificial and arbitrary. More to the point, they don't matter. Whatever dive you do, all that matters is to consider the potential risks, prepare for them, know your limits, plan your dive accordingly, and stick to the plan.

If you can manage that, then what gear you choose, or what someone else decides to label your dive is really rather irrelevent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[FFDiver221]

Divers die all the time even when they have a single tank. Does having one more mean they will die twice as fast, I doubt that. Am I a tech or cave diver, no, do I want to get to that level, yes. SM is just another tool to use that is available. I am getting ready to do it for open water does that mean Im crazy, no. It means I am willing to embrace a different style for reasons that appeal to me just like others. One is health, pinched nerve in the back and knees that have been abused. It is easier to do sidemount putting tanks on in the water. Ok for the people that say a AL80 is enough, well no, I like the redundancy of a pony so I am already diving a mismatched set of tanks. If I go SM does that mean I am going to stay down longer, probably not by much becuase I do know what gas managment is. How can I make that statement, because I am a firefighter and we go into just as hostile environment as diving and in some ways overhead. Something happens we cant just head to the surface we have to get out with ONE cylinder of air, not two not three not a stage bottle, Just ONE that is about the same as an 80cf tank.

I want to try sidemount and see if is for me and I will do it in confined water and learn the basics. If it works then I will seek out competent training not just a warm body looking for money. I dont like going to training and not knowing anything about what is going. Am I being arrogant, no as I research everything and look at all the possibilities involved and then make a plan of action. That way when I show up for class I can understand what is being shown and get the very best results.

I teach firefighter classes for community colleges and it is a pain in the butt for students to show for an advanced class and not even know the basics. Can everyone be proactive and move forward, no as some people dont have the mindset for those steps. However they do want to dive and no one can stop them if they pass the course just some are more comfortable than others. Again SM is just another tool that can be used for legtimate reasons and never be taken near an overhead environment. Just as going night diving a person takes two or three lights for redundancy does that mean they are tech divers, no it means they are smart enough to think ahead. I do everything with redundancy in mind for safety. Does that mean I am going to put on my doubles or my SM and head to a Cave, nope not today not ever unless I get the proper training.

To all the people doing to add another tool to the toolbox for what ever reason, congratulations and keep moving ahead. To anyone that wants to deny it to people you might as well get out of the way becuase a mighty big truck is coming down the road to run you over at some point.

[cavediver256]

.......... I do know what gas managment is. How can I make that statement, because I am a firefighter and we go into just as hostile environment as diving and in some ways overhead. Something happens we cant just head to the surface we have to get out with ONE cylinder of air, not two not three not a stage bottle, Just ONE that is about the same as an 80cf tank.

Just curious what kind of gas management plan are firefighters using ????

[phillip1]

And at your level of the game Phillip, I understand you needing/wanting SM. We are not talking about cave/technical diving, we are talking about OW non-technical diving here.....how/where would SM be more beneficial that a single AL tank ??????

I was replying with some medical reasons why SM would be better than BM as requested.

I totally agree with you that SM is not an OW training thing at all neither is doubles, however a single SM tank with the Razor is far easier to dive than a regular BM single tank BC.
I lent my Razor to two OW divers in Honduras so they could try it and they instantly had really good trim and looked really good in the Razor, they found it far more comfortable than the BM singles BC they had, these divers were average OW divers who had never even heard of SM, but that is getting off topic.

But again I agree that SM is not an OW level thing at all, just like doubles is not either.

[Slüdge]

The definition of technical diving I learned fifteen years ago still applies. A dive is a technical dive if one or more of the following is utilized:

1. Breathing gas other than air or nitrox to 40%
2. Overhead
3. Planned decompression
4. Deeper than 130'

[mstueven]

Out of curiosity, what agency teaches that?

Personally, I think it's a silly distinction.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually, Lamar Hires suggested it as a simple way to differentiate between recreational and technical diving during my full cave class. Definitely not something from a particular training "agency" book. Lots of definitions out there, some better than others, and some that do make silly distinctions.

I think the impetus of this thread was whether or not giving open water trained divers the added 'responsbility' so to speak of diving sidemount would encourage them to go farther than they were prepared in training, and if offering a sidemount specialty to non-technical divers could encourage that behavior. Ultimately I'd have to agree that it has that potential, and therefore would suggest part of the requirements of such a course include introductory technical skills and knowledge. Like many, I have always viewed sidemount as 'advanced' cave diving and it's hard to see the transition to a more popular, accepted method in general.

I would say that the diver's we are really concerned about here are people who are willing to go beyond their limits, regardless of what gear configuration they do it in, not someone such as yourself with adequate training and knowledge to intelligently address the same dives. Guys like Matt have my respect because they are going places I'm still working towards. I have a lot to learn about sidemount and definitely recognize that.

[adam0321]

Could be ... if they're doing skills practice in 40 feet of water preparing for a Tech 2 class, for example.

I was in 20 feet of water when this picture was taken. By all accounts that's a recreational dive.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257/NWGratefulDiver/CIMG7438.jpg

Now granted we were coming off a 210 foot dive previously ... but figured since we had all that gear out there we might as well go back out and play ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

doubles dry suit and scooter i think your beyond rec

[Rich]

LOL, an interesting discussion. I was interviewing a student the other day who wanted to take a Sidemount (Cave Specialty) course from me. When he asked me why I liked sidemount so much and I replied "I don't", the look on his face was priceless.... :) We talked for a while longer about some other stuff and he ended up giving me a deposit on a class.
For the record the only times I use sidemount is while solo, if my buddy is sidemounting and of course if the cave demands it eg Rock Bluff, Action Fracture etc.....YMMV

Safe diving,

Rich

[FFDiver221]

Just curious what kind of gas management plan are firefighters using ????

We use a 4500 psi cylinder rated for 45 minutes and when you are working hard 45 minutes is not how long it lasts more like 20-30 or can be less. We have an spg to keep track of our air and also have a HUD to display air pressure in 25% increments. When the pressure drops to approx 1000 psi an alarm sounds and also the HUD displays a red status. SO if you have used 3500 psi getting in guess what 1000 wont get you out. Through much discussion I have convinced some to use the rule of thirds because that is what I was taught in diving before I started fighting fire and I follow it all the time. The traditional way of thinking is staying in until the alarm goes off then you leave, it works but does not leave a safety margin if something goes wrong. We train to hot swap cylinders which means a person holds their breath until a cylinder is changed. Trust me it is tough to do when you are blindfolded. We used to use 30 min cylinder which only held something like 50 some cf so not much air and even with a 45 I am not for sure what the actual cf is I will check tomorrow and find out. In extreme emergencies we can transfill cylinders while wearing them and share air however it puts even more premium on air supply. We have a hose to hook from cylinder to cylinder to equalize the pressure so another can use the air and also have another hose that they can hook their second stage reg in to in case their first stage reg or other part takes a crap. When you get to that poiint it is tough and it is no seven foot hose either!!! and you are on extremely borrowed time...
Just as I dont want to die in a burning building I dont want to die underwater. At least I have the option of redundancy underwater wish I had it in a big burning building.

[phillip1]

You appear to be making some assumptions here.

I'm interested in learning sidemount diving for OW. At present I have over 2,600 dives, several hundred in BM doubles (I own two sets of HP119's), am full trimix certified, have done dives down to 240 fsw, penetrated wrecks (certified NAUI wreck penetration), am Full Cave certified, dive regularly in cold, low-vis, often high-current conditions.

I have one good reason for an OW Sidemount course ... because I want to. It's as much about the experience as anything else.

Why should I need to give you ... or anybody else ... any reason other than that.

Why would you assume that just because someone wants to learn Sidemount that are somehow trying to get out of being properly trained ... or that if I want to learn sidemount that I should have to restrict myself to using it in a cave?

Maybe you should get out of the cave every once in a while ... you might discover that there are other environments that people dive in ... and many of those people are every bit as skilled and knowledgeable in their environment as you are in yours ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

One reason why I SM is because I find it way more fun than BM, especially in OW. I don't care what anyone thinks I have a blast every time I dive and since I switched I have done every single dive from a leasurely OW shore dive to the gnarliest cave exploration all in SM and it is just so much more fun (not to mention, safer, more comfortable, more flexible etc..).

You should definitely do an OW SM course and also try a single tank SM you will be amazed at how much better it is.

[Slüdge]

try a single tank SM you will be amazed at how much better it is.

Yeah, balance is WAY overrated.

[jj1987]

When he asked me why I liked sidemount so much and I replied "I don't",
A member of the dive industry that doesn't push side mount infomercial style...FINALLY.

Thanks Rich :)

[cavediver256]

LOL, an interesting discussion. I was interviewing a student the other day who wanted to take a Sidemount (Cave Specialty) course from me. When he asked me why I liked sidemount so much and I replied "I don't", the look on his face was priceless.... :) We talked for a while longer about some other stuff and he ended up giving me a deposit on a class.
For the record the only times I use sidemount is while solo, if my buddy is sidemounting and of course if the cave demands it eg Rock Bluff, Action Fracture etc.....YMMV

Safe diving,

Rich

LOL, yeah I had that conversation with Rich over a "couple" of drinks a couple of months back. Great talk Rich !!!! :drinkers::drinkers:

[CaveBuddy95]

...
Look ... the point is all these distinctions about who's wearing what gear, etc. etc. etc. are just silly. The boundaries between recreational and technical are both artificial and arbitrary. More to the point, they don't matter. Whatever dive you do, all that matters is to consider the potential risks, prepare for them, know your limits, plan your dive accordingly, and stick to the plan.

If you can manage that, then what gear you choose, or what someone else decides to label your dive is really rather irrelevent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It sounds as if the discussion is just for Tec divers to get reassured as their hard aquirred 'old school' c-cards were threatened by OW divers getting too close to their secret garden?!! Come on guys! You are worth more than that!
Would it be PADI or/and IANTD they both have a Rec diver course in BM doubles...and guess what, SM diver too!
;)


I am waiting to hear just one good reason for an OW Sidemount course........just one !!!! MSTUEVEN hit the nail on the head !!!!! Task loading, gas management, etc all add to the complexity diving SM. If a student isn't willing to do the dives and put in the required time to gain the appropriate skills, experience and prerequisite courses, then why the hell are they diving anyway??? Just so they can look cool in front of all their friends???? Why would anyone even consider teaching someone with that attitude?????

Now lets get the health issue topic on the table..... I am dying to hear just one good reason for OW SM from a health issue. Give me one example of where taking two tanks to the water is easier than making the trip once with AL tank.

OK now the traveling issue......dive a single tank....if you require more than a single tank, you should already have technical training, and the necessary skills to dive SM.

If you want to dive doubles, in ANY configuration, then get the training.....I would think at a minimum of a Deco Procedures Course and all the courses that precede it.

As for both training agencies the prerequisites for OW sm course is -AOW with 25 dives - so thats not too shabby! Both have an Intro to Tec program and IANTD has, Deep diver, Adv EANx diver. The last offers a max of 15' deco, just a tad Tec!
Now one thing for sure is that training is not down to an agency but more to the instructor!
;)

[Slüdge]

try a single tank SM you will be amazed at how much better it is.

... and when a student asks how to distribute twelve pounds of lead I tell them to put ten pounds on one side and two pounds on the other.

[NWGratefulDiver]

doubles dry suit and scooter i think your beyond rec

... and yet the majority of my dives are purely recreational ... and many of my entry-level students learn to dive in a drysuit ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[WJefferis]

I think that most on this thread think of SM as purely mission specific, but I have to disagree. Just because you are diving sidemount doesn't mean you have to go dig yourself into some small crack. Some people like to dive SM for many different reasons. I really like to dive my SM rig because after a full day or a couple of days of diving my back doesn't hurt like if I am diving my OW single tank BP/W rig. I always have far more gas than I will need and getting in and out of the water is great. I would love to dive the Oriskany in my SM set-up. I am not a tec diver so I wouldn't need the gas to stay down for a long dive, but it would be nice to have a totally redundant tank there for that just in case event.

I talked to edd at Cave Adventurers and he takes his SM gear to the tropics with him to dive reefs, etc. Many have seen this video of Steve Bogaerts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDp58Wrz4Uk and diving his SM rig in OW doesn't seem to be cramping his style any. I don't think that diving sidemount makes you a technical diver, I think it just means you are diving a different rig that works for you. I really don't see a need for requiring divers to have a SM cert to dive SM. Although getting a SM class will help you to work out how to tweak everything just so, instead of learning it over time.

[NEON]

... and I was just trying to show you the fallacy of your definition of a recreational dive ...

Look ... the point is all these distinctions about who's wearing what gear, etc. etc. etc. are just silly. The boundaries between recreational and technical are both artificial and arbitrary. More to the point, they don't matter. Whatever dive you do, all that matters is to consider the potential risks, prepare for them, know your limits, plan your dive accordingly, and stick to the plan.

If you can manage that, then what gear you choose, or what someone else decides to label your dive is really rather irrelevent ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Right on!

[CaveBuddy95]

Sidemount is good for any diver who wants to try something new! And seeing the way things are going, it is not stopping now!
I'd be curious to hear the real big names in the evolution of todays SM on this thread. As I see it, it is the future way the world will learn to dive!
;)

[Webmaster]

If you're going to carry enough gas to get well into deco, regardless of how you mount it, it's probably reasonable to say that you should also be trained in decompression.

[adam0321]

thank you

[guau]

If you're going to carry enough gas to get well into deco, regardless of how you mount it, it's probably reasonable to say that you should also be trained in decompression.
Am I missing something here? I have not been involved with teaching scuba for many years. Way back when, all students learning scuba knew upon completion of a basic open water class knew how to manage gas (called air then) and stay away from decompression or if they did, knew how to manage getting out of the situation with proper planning and deco stops. You certainly can get into trouble with gas even diving one single tank and certainly with multiple dives a day with singles.
What are they teaching now? The old school produced divers that were trained usually after 12 weeks of classes which included reasonable water skills and comfort in both confined and open water. The scuba programs have gone from the basic "don't hold your breath" to come back for more training and bring your wallet each time!!! I agree in specific training for gas mixing, cave and wreck and a few more, but not for every little addition to your experience. If you dive on a regular basis and are comfortable and confident in you skills, learning the techniques for sm should not be an added class.

One other comment I would like to add is the "I use sidemount because of past injury" Somewhere along the years, we learned that the injured location was more prone to "a decompression hit" Unless that has change, more caution should be used when considering a deco dive or even a push on the computer.

Be safe and dive within your limits

[CaveBuddy95]

If you're going to carry enough gas to get well into deco, regardless of how you mount it, it's probably reasonable to say that you should also be trained in decompression.

Good point!
What about Nitrox mix? As far as teaching Nitrox, when I do, the divers know they also have to improve their air consomption. It is one thing to 'be able' to stay longer due to an EANx 32 or 36, it is another to have enough gas to enjoy it.
Now if they have the necessary volume to take advantage of the extended NDL with their NItrox mix, then super!
Therefore SM or doubles are the way to go. I'd rather say SM actually! ;)
No?

[phillip1]

Really and truly you do not need to take a SM class to learn it, having switched to SM out of necessity we learned it completely by ourselves with my dive buddy Thomas, the same safety guidelines apply to SM so as long as you are following them you will be ok.
If there was a SM class available to us back then we would have done it OW or not, to learn the setup much faster.
Taking a SM class will save you a lot of time and what would take you a month or more to find out by yourself you will learn in a day or two.

However this is all after becoming full cave certified and having many many BM dives under my belt, if someone who already dives doubles in caves, wrecks, deep wants to do a OW SM class it would be a really good thing to do as you will learn how to set up the rig, attach the tanks etc... and learn the various techniques involved with SM, for such a diver this will be a bit different but not at all alien and the diver could then adapt or change the SM setup around to suit his or her needs.
OW level SM classes makes the same sense as an OW BM class, if someone really wants to learn to dive double tanks this way it should really be as part of a more advanced training level, cave, advanced EANX etc..

Having said that SM is definitely the way people will dive in the future, BM is so 80's and really not much fun once you really get into SM.

[CaveBuddy95]

Really and truly you do not need to take a SM class to learn it, having switched to SM out of necessity we learned it completely by ourselves with my dive buddy Thomas, the same safety guidelines apply to SM so as long as you are following them you will be ok.
If there was a SM class available to us back then we would have done it OW or not, to learn the setup much faster.
Taking a SM class will save you a lot of time and what would take you a month or more to find out by yourself you will learn in a day or two.

However this is all after becoming full cave certified and having many many BM dives under my belt, if someone who already dives doubles in caves, wrecks, deep wants to do a OW SM class it would be a really good thing to do as you will learn how to set up the rig, attach the tanks etc... and learn the various techniques involved with SM, for such a diver this will be a bit different but not at all alien and the diver could then adapt or change the SM setup around to suit his or her needs.
OW level SM classes makes the same sense as an OW BM class, if someone really wants to learn to dive double tanks this way it should really be as part of a more advanced training level, cave, advanced EANX etc..

Having said that SM is definitely the way people will dive in the future, BM is so 80's and really not much fun once you really get into SM.

Absolument! :)
Just to ad that Adv Nitrox from IANTD is still a recreational diver level, not yet technical. It is based on a 1.5PO2 max and 15minutes max deco. It is a great way to start more advanced diving!
;)

[NWGratefulDiver]

Am I missing something here? I have not been involved with teaching scuba for many years. Way back when, all students learning scuba knew upon completion of a basic open water class knew how to manage gas (called air then) and stay away from decompression or if they did, knew how to manage getting out of the situation with proper planning and deco stops. You certainly can get into trouble with gas even diving one single tank and certainly with multiple dives a day with singles.
What are they teaching now? The old school produced divers that were trained usually after 12 weeks of classes which included reasonable water skills and comfort in both confined and open water. The scuba programs have gone from the basic "don't hold your breath" to come back for more training and bring your wallet each time!!! I agree in specific training for gas mixing, cave and wreck and a few more, but not for every little addition to your experience. If you dive on a regular basis and are comfortable and confident in you skills, learning the techniques for sm should not be an added class.

A few things have changed. Nowadays if you want a 12-week class about the only place you're going to find it is at a university ... where it's basically subsidized. Nitrox wasn't generally available to recreational divers "back in the day" ... nowadays quite a few divers learn it as part of their entry-level class. Diving is no longer the purview of a handful of adventuresome young men ... it's generally available to anyone from pre-teens to aging boomers. People no longer use tables to plan their dives ... they buy a dive computer and let it tell them how to manage the dive. Most mainstream recreational training doesn't teach you much at all about decompression. People are offered "advanced" training directly after their four initial training dives ... leaving many of them believing they are somehow "qualified" to do dives to 100 feet and beyond with less than 10 dives total ... all of which were done under the supervision of an instructor.

The end result isn't so much that these people hurt themselves ... it's that more than three-quarters of them quit diving shortly after taking their initial class. As a friend of mine put it ... they learn just enough to scare the crap outta themselves, and then they decide diving's not for them and go find something else to do with their recreational time and money.



One other comment I would like to add is the "I use sidemount because of past injury" Somewhere along the years, we learned that the injured location was more prone to "a decompression hit" Unless that has change, more caution should be used when considering a deco dive or even a push on the computer.

Absolutely ... injury is only one of several predisposing factors that some divers have to be concerned about today. Fitness and age are two others that have radically altered over the years. The average diving population today is much older than it was years ago ... and the average population in general is heavier and more out of shape than it used to be. These are but two of the trends that lead to greater conservatism in the practices being taught today.

But the question still becomes one of freedom of choice. I'm pushing 60 ... and packing a few more pounds than I should be. But I will find ways to do the dives I want to do until I'm physically incapable of doing them anymore ... whether that's through injury, accident, or aging. It's my choice ... and if I want it for myself I have to respect it for others as well.

But there's some validity to the concerns expressed here regarding appropriateness of choices ... people need to have enough information to make informed decisions. And there are, as there have always been, venues for people to get that information. It's up to each individual to use those resources and to make responsible decisions regarding their diving lifestyle.

With respect to the few who don't ... sometimes it's out of ignorance, but more often it's out of an inflated sense of their own ability ... or a case of "it won't happen to me". There really isn't much you can do for those folks except let them make their risky choices and let Darwin sort 'em out ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

Having said that SM is definitely the way people will dive in the future, BM is so 80's and really not much fun once you really get into SM.


I dunno ... I went to a rebreather workshop a few weeks back and discovered I really like it. I personally think that's the future of diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Slüdge]

A few things have changed.

Yeah, a few. When I took NASDS Open Water in the mid-1980s we learned decompression diving, wave patterns for shore diving, tide tables and tide charts (not the same thing), regulator theory, navigation, and rescue.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

If you're going to carry enough gas to get well into deco, regardless of how you mount it, it's probably reasonable to say that you should also be trained in decompression.

So then everyone on two tank recreational boat trips ought to have decompression training, despite the goal of recreational dives only.

I can push a single AL80, sticking within rock bottom, on a boat dive or two in moderate, recreational depths well past NDL if I wanted.




OW divers are trained to stay within NDL times, regardless of how much gas they are carrying.

[TONY CHANEY]

Am I the only one on CDF that started diving doubles before any "technical" class? I think that almost everyone I know, who dive doubles, was doing so prior to any formal class. I feel that with over 500 dives, I can figure SM without a class. But a class would be a better way to go. I am really surprised that so many would like to see a cert. for SM but I find a large number of divers feel dry suit class a waste of time and money. As for diving SM in OW, I would embrace a kit that can be used in every enviroment. OBTW, I defind Tec. as the same as Sludge but also anytime you plan a dive beyond NDL's.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Am I the only one on CDF that started diving doubles before any "technical" class? I think that almost everyone I know, who dive doubles, was doing so prior to any formal class. I feel that with over 500 dives, I can figure SM without a class. But a class would be a better way to go. I am really surprised that so many would like to see a cert. for SM but I find a large number of divers feel dry suit class a waste of time and money. As for diving SM in OW, I would embrace a kit that can be used in every enviroment. OBTW, I defind Tec. as the same as Sludge but also anytime you plan a dive beyond NDL's.
My first few doubles dives were with a mentor. After that I took a workshop that went through the "GUE" protocols for hose routing and valve drills ... then we went down to the local mudhole and practiced for a couple dives. After that, it was just diving. At no point during any of that did we go into decompression theory. It was more than a year before I took my first "tech" class.

As for decompression ... I can go into deco easily on a single cylinder ... and at certain sites I do so regularly. Sometimes I'll sling a bottle of EAN50 for the swim upslope ... but most times I just deco on backgas. Most of those dives are in excess of 80 minutes ... and I usually come out of the water with 800+ psi.

You can do a lot of diving on a single cylinder ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Slüdge]

I defined Tec. as the same as Sludge but also anytime you plan a dive beyond NDL's.

That was #3 of 4.

[TONY CHANEY]

Sorry Sludge, I was going from memory and forgot that one.

[Webmaster]

So then everyone on two tank recreational boat trips ought to have decompression training, despite the goal of recreational dives only.

I can push a single AL80, sticking within rock bottom, on a boat dive or two in moderate, recreational depths well past NDL if I wanted.

OW divers are trained to stay within NDL times, regardless of how much gas they are carrying.

Yes, but if someone is carrying twice as much gas as they normally would, pretty much anyone now has the capability to get into deco. Probably by not just a little bit, and without your (I'm sure stellar ;-)) gas consumption. And if you have it, people will use it. Regardless of what they're told NOT to do in training. Isn't that a big part of the reason that you cover most of the essential cave diving skills in cavern?

So if you're going to offer training that transitions someone from a single tank to two tanks, whatever the configuration, is it responsible to offer that to students that are not trained in decompression?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You can't fix stupid, taking the class away will just assure the stupid people will do it without a class. Responsible people are the ones who will be punished.


Is it responsible to teach in a two tank configuration if the student is not trained in decompression? Just as resposible as it is to train single tank divers without decompression training. No brainer.

[Line Squirrel]

And if you have it, people will use it. Regardless of what they're told NOT to do in training.

So why do the cave diving agencies allow intro divers to dive doubles then?

[phillip1]

I dunno ... I went to a rebreather workshop a few weeks back and discovered I really like it. I personally think that's the future of diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Oops, I meant the future of open circuit diving..

[DeepSea]

So why do the cave diving agencies allow intro divers to dive doubles then?

I believe the decisions to move this direction were revenue based...

[CaveBuddy95]

Ah...the "back in the day syndrome"...it's been around for ages!!! ;)
I remember when I started scuba (CMAS), we were allowed at 3* diver level to go to 65m on air with one tank and have tons of deco!! Back in the days!! There were still lots of casualties due to poor knowledge! Today, diving single to 200ft is ludicrous but probably still done!


You can do a lot of diving on a single cylinder ...

;)

[RN]

What's wrong with an OW Sidemount course? For those of you that don't think someone without technical training should be allowed to take a course like this, what do you think the course is exactly?? And where/when do you think divers should be allowed to take this course? I just taught an OW Sidemount course this weekend. My students were a cavern diver who completed cavern with me in doubles. He had plenty of experience in backmounted doubles, but had never been exposed to valve drills like he was in my class. Due to decreased flexibility for various reasons, he felt sidemount would be a better configuration for him. He has no plans to dive small passage. Should he be forced to complete his cave training in backmount? I can tell you he wouldn't get a cave card from me without being able to do good valve drills and with his lack of flexibility, that wasn't likely. I am pretty confident he could find an instructor who would issue him a card, though. (James, aren't you selling a list?) Another student completed cavern with someone else and decided she didn't want to go the backmounted doubles route. She knows other sidemount divers and was referred to me. Again, no plans to dive small passage. My 3rd student is planning on completing cavern and intro cave in the next couple of months, followed by cave when he's ready. He prefers to learn the basic skills of cave diving in the configuration he will be using to cave dive. (Imagine that!) After doing the research, he decided he'd rather not waste the money on a backmount system. He may eventually dive small passages. After spending 4 training days with him, I can assure you this isn't a "cool kid" decision. It was a weighing of the attributes of both and deciding sidemount suited him better than backmount.

As for gas management, I teach it. Specifically, I teach my students how to manage the independent air sources. Our dives are kept under an hour and most of my students end up being able to complete 4 dives on 1 fill. I have had students use AL80s who have to get fills between every dive. It depends on air consumption rates. I can get a deco obligation on an AL80. I know some divers who wouldn't come close to a deco obligation with a pair of 80s.

Perhaps we should start requiring certified RMVs prior to allowing anyone to dive dual cylinders! I'll offer a RMV certificate for $100 if anyone is interested...

[PfcAJ]

I think its silly because its not NEEDED for the environment. I'll bet you a steak dinner that with some flexibility training, a good fitting suit, and TIME (theres a new one), that I could get your guy doing good shutdowns in backmounted doubles. You even stated that his friends were diving SM...I guess he does want to be like them.

I feel there are very clear disadvantaged to SM for a new cave diver (and possibly any diver) when you compare back mounted doubles. A debate raged on for a good time about if intro students should be allowed to dive doubles...after all, they might get far in the cave. Yet here we are, discussing teaching people techniques that can not only get them far, but in to MUCH more challenging passages (it just happened). Thats just ridiculous.

Unfortunately, it seems that people (no one in particular) might be teaching classes to get cash. It happens all the time with basic OW classes, instructors selling dumb specialties, and we even see it with cave instructors. Hopefully James will sell me his list and I'll post it on here.

[saxplayer1004]

ok this is controversial subject, and is all my opinion, so my apologies if I piss someone off.

What about instructors realizing where students may be going and allowing them to use whatever gear is best fitting for them in the long run?
We teach our students on Halcyon Eclipse systems with Apeks ATX50's from day 1. They are clueless on jacket bc's and normal rec regulator configurations. We are prepping them for cave. Will all of them do it? No, but for those that do, it gets them acclimated with suicide straps, long hose primaries and HOG harnesses from day 1. It's a better way to dive though, especially in the long run.
I'm a weight lifter, as such I have a very large chest, but a small waist. My shoulders prevent me from getting into a one piece harness, so on my backplate I have a quick release on the left strap. I'll bet you that same steak dinner that with a 7mm wetsuit or a drysuit on, I can't get into or especially out of, a properly adjusted HOG harness. Am I in shape, yes, am I flexible, yes. Can my elbows touch each other, no. Can I touch my left shoulder with my left hand, no. This is problematic with HOG harnesses.
I also have real bad knees, so I prefer to dive SM since I don't have to carry bottles around. Can I still carry doubles, sure, but it hurts like hell.

With your statement regarding intro students allowed to dive doubles, and now SM, that's not the equipment's problem. We put our rescue diving students in doubles for their OW. Does this mean they now have enough bottom time to get bent? absolutely. You have to trust that the divers are mature enough not to overstep their training and skill levels. If they do, then so be it, that's not your problem. Whether or not you teach them intro in doubles or not, there is nothing stopping them from buying a set of doubles, and just diving them. At least if you teach them from the beginning they'll know how to do it properly.

I guess we're at a huge advantage teaching at a university since we are not obligated to certify any of our students, and can be as tough as we want. Most of you guys are out to make a living teaching diving so you can't be as anal about it *hence teaching to get cash, especially OW*. We get paid the same regardless of if we certify 4 divers a semester or all 40 we take each semester. We have no business to worry about with new gear either which is nice. Some of us dive SM almost exclusively now, whether it's because of health reasons or just preference, some dive doubles. We encourage doubles right after they complete basic OW if they're continuing diving with our program, especially if they're purchasing gear. Buy it once and be done with it. We're now encouraging Nomad's if they don't want a steel plate since it allows them full flexibility. If they choose doubles over sides, then they can take the butt plate off and still have a wing plenty big enough for doubles. Used to be just a Transpac or plate, but the original Nomad's aren't that much more expensive.

As for not needed for the environment. Do you dive with a long hose in open water? Care to explain to me why in the world you need a 7' long hose when you can ascent facing each other? I'm curious...

We use doubles in open water and long hoses to stay comfortable with our equipment so muscle memory is established. If he can't reach his valves for valve drills, and chooses to dive SM because of it, so be it. If he wants to dive SM when he's on a reef because it makes him feel more comfortable, more power to him.

My instructor is a firm believer in modifying equipment for the situation. However, he also believes firmly in having base equipment stay the same, so you can establish muscle memory.
Always dive doubles unless you can't physically attain them. I.e. reef diving
Use the same BC as much as possible, obviously a smaller wing for singles
Use the same regs, although long hose only needed when diving in restricting/overhead environments. In open water, we use short hoses for primaries.

I use my nomad for singles doubles and SM. Only thing that moves is the pouch clipped on my back when I have bottles on my back. Muscles memory stays the same, which is great.

What's wrong with choosing to dive sidemount because your buddies are doing it? Isn't the whole HOG and DIR deal about diving the same setup as your buddy to avoid equipment confusion? I know how much my buddies love going through air sharing review with me since my regs are set up a lot different than theirs.

As far as disadvantages to doubles. Ok there's no manifold... that could be a problem, but is highly unlikely.
ok, i'm done...
So I can now ditch cylinders faster, if a buddy is having reg issues or is OOA, I can switch bottles with him instead of being tied to him. I feel more stable in the water with the weight below me instead of on top of me.
I don't kill my body carrying them around...
Seems like a lot of advantages to me... Am I doing hardcore tight passage exploration? No, but if I feel safer and more comfortable to dive sidemount it seems like I should be able to. No different than wanting to dive doubles in open water

[TONY CHANEY]

Perhaps we should start requiring certified RMVs prior to allowing anyone to dive dual cylinders! I'll offer a RMV certificate for $100 if anyone is interested...

Sorry RN but I paid a lot more for this class in Respiratory therapy class. Damn, missed out on a great deal. Just my luck.

[TONY CHANEY]

I will stick to my previous post as to I think that you should be able to dive whatever you like but don't make a required cert. for SM. One thing that keeps coming up is the "no need to carry bottles" around. Well I remember the vast amount of complaints when were at Peacock last time. Carring two tanks form the parking area to the water then returning to gear up. Or carring one at a time and making 5 trips. (just think about the walk to other places like Cow or worse.) Most said that they can't wait to get back to BM once the Mexico push was over. The tank's wt. is the same except for one less manifold and 2 bands. I felt for years that the closer to your CG the more stable something is. That is why we carrie the load in backpacks instead of "sidepacks." I guess that if your body is so bad off that you could carry each item one at a time.

[TONY CHANEY]

We use doubles in open water and long hoses to stay comfortable with our equipment so muscle memory is established.

Use the same regs, although long hose only needed when diving in restricting/overhead environments. In open water, we use short hoses for primaries.

Huh?

[DA Aquamaster]

One thing that keeps coming up is the "no need to carry bottles" around. Well I remember the vast amount of complaints when were at Peacock last time. Carring two tanks form the parking area to the water then returning to gear up. Or carring one at a time and making 5 trips. (just think about the walk to other places like Cow or worse.)You left out some of the options. For example, at Manatee I have used a small two wheeled cart to get the bottles to Friedman's as well as to get them back to the car in the Manatee parking lot. I have also carried every thing at once in SM using ring bungees, and I have carried everything at once in back mount. In terms of level of effort, they go pretty much in the same order from easiest to hardest. Having done all three and being fairly familiar with the pros and cons, if I had to walk a long way and wanted to only make one trip, I'd choose to do it sidemount with ring bungees. If the harness is properly adjusted, it is quite comfortable - more comfortable than in back mount.

Places like Cow are 50/50. The walk is not that long, but it is too rough for a cart and the sink can be hazard getting in and out with back mounted doubles due to your high center of gravity and the weight involved. Getting in with SM is much easier as is getting out. It also offers more options as if the sides of a sinck are slippery, the water at an inconvenient level, etc making egress difficult, you always have the option of taking one or more tanks off. That is not quite as easy to accomplish in back mount.

---

As for ab initio training in sidemount there are two sides to the issue. it is true that an OW sidemount diver may not look a lot different than a cave trained sidemount diver and it is true that this diver could go places in a cave where he or she will get killed. Sadly, it is also true that sidemount trained OW divers will continue to die in caves. However, the same can be said for OW divers in poodle jackets and for OW divers in doubles.

The common demoninator here is the dumb ass OW diver who *thinks* he or she can dive in a cave. Restricting access to sidemount equipment won't help as there will always be internet retailers and E-bay. Similarly, requiring a sidemount C-card in cave systems just places needless restrictions on divers who are already cave certified and who are (or at least should be) aware of the real risks and are cognizant of their limitations.

----

There are also heavy doses of irony here. We have HOG/DIR/GUE focused backmount, long hose divers who are saying that sidemount is not needed, ironically reflecting the same opposition and resistance to change that existed in regard to things like HOG confighuration, a backup second stage and a long hose primary. Evidence of the latter can still be found in this thread where it is pointed out that a long hose is not needed in OW. The truth is that a long hose is not needed in OW, but it makes things much easier, expands the diver's options and adds a great deal of operational flexibility even in OW. The same can be said about sidemount, it's just that the shoe is now on the other foot in regards to what is "new" versus "old" school thinking.

So...pick one side of the greater operational flexibility side of argument or the other but don't pick and choose and decide to argue one or the other only when it is convenient or supports your particular bias.

[Slüdge]

Huh?

I have to agree with the saxophone player. A 7' hose when there's no chance of an overhead is just stupid.

[mdax]

Cora and i went sidemount because she was not able to pick up doubles and while my back is ok it's got lots of wear from Army years and jiujitsu and sometimes get's sore. Some weeks i have better shoulder movement than others...

We dove our dolphins for the last 10 years and had no open circuit gear. Purchasing our nomads, training in the open water with them prior to cavern and then using them for cave courses seemed to make sense. We took the side mount course to learn how to configure and use the system.

We most always dive together and always have the same gear, while i think she's cool it has more to do with equipment familiarization than anything else.

Using side mount in open water to gain familiarity for overhead use seems logical.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I think its silly because its not NEEDED for the environment. I'll bet you a steak dinner that with some flexibility training, a good fitting suit, and TIME (theres a new one), that I could get your guy doing good shutdowns in backmounted doubles. You even stated that his friends were diving SM...I guess he does want to be like them.

I'd take that bet ... a skiing injury to my left shoulder several years ago has flexibility in that joint progressively deteriorating as I get older. I struggle with valve drills ... and it's only getting worse. I have to work at them constantly ... and can easily see the day approaching when all the work in the world isn't going to make them happen anymore. And I don't think you or anyone else except perhaps a surgeon is going to make it any better.

So should I just stop diving when I can no longer do my valve drills? I can tell you for sure that ain't gonna happen ... and it seems to me that sidemount could be an acceptable alternative that would accommodate the decreased function without compromising the safety of the dive team.

You speak with all the confidence of a very young man who's got it all figured out .. and from your perspective and experience, I guess that's justified. It would be interesting to see how different your response would be if you were my age. I can tell you that time puts a whole different perspective on things you're very sure of when you're younger.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[jj1987]

I'd take that bet ... a skiing injury to my left shoulder several years ago has flexibility in that joint progressively deteriorating as I get older. I struggle with valve drills ... and it's only getting worse. I have to work at them constantly ... and can easily see the day approaching when all the work in the world isn't going to make them happen anymore. And I don't think you or anyone else except perhaps a surgeon is going to make it any better.

So should I just stop diving when I can no longer do my valve drills? I can tell you for sure that ain't gonna happen ... and it seems to me that sidemount could be an acceptable alternative that would accommodate the decreased function without compromising the safety of the dive team.

You speak with all the confidence of a very young man who's got it all figured out .. and from your perspective and experience, I guess that's justified. It would be interesting to see how different your response would be if you were my age. I can tell you that time puts a whole different perspective on things you're very sure of when you're younger.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think there's medical reasons to dive sm (as stated), but don't you think it's a bit odd that NAUI/GUE intro to tech courses get students to do valve drills within time and minimum trim standards day in and day out, yet it seems it's getting more and more common for instructors in NFL to have all the medical issues limiting them from reaching 3-4 inches and turning a knob?

I know you've passed one of the courses mentioned, so I'm not referring you you. Just a general observation, the medical issues seem to not really effect some agencies.

I had thought I wasn't flexible enough, and it prevented me from doing valve drills until I got a flexible (tls350) dry suit that fit properly and spent time in the water with people who had mastered valve drills.

[Slüdge]

I never did valve drills. My instructor taught us to dive thirds within the buddy system or carry a totally redundant buddy bottle.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I never did valve drills. My instructor taught us to dive thirds within the buddy system or carry a totally redundant buddy bottle.

Then why have a manifold at all?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I think there's medical reasons to dive sm (as stated), but don't you think it's a bit odd that NAUI/GUE intro to tech courses get students to do valve drills within time and minimum trim standards day in and day out, yet it seems it's getting more and more common for instructors in NFL to have all the medical issues limiting them from reaching 3-4 inches and turning a knob?

You're supposed to get better with practice ... but the fact remains that our diving population is aging, and as people age they lose flexibility. Not even GUE can change that basic fact of life.



I know you've passed one of the courses mentioned, so I'm not referring you you. Just a general observation, the medical issues seem to not really effect some agencies.

Why would that surprise you? If you know what an agency requirement is ... and you know that it's not something you can achieve ... then most rational folks would simply seek an alternative.



I had thought I wasn't flexible enough, and it prevented me from doing valve drills until I got a flexible (tls350) dry suit that fit properly and spent time in the water with people who had mastered valve drills.

I could do lots of things at age 22 that I can't do at age 58 ... but those days are gone for good.

FWIW, I found the stretching exercises in Fitness for Divers to be the most useful way to overcome flexibility issues. But you still only have what you have to work with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[PfcAJ]

Bob, I can see where you're coming from, and I think its completely valid. But I don't think your case is the norm. Not everyone is an outlier. More often than not, things take work and practice. I looked like a monkey humpin' a football the first time I tried to shut down my valves, but I worked at it, listened to those who were better than me, adjusted things, and practiced some more.

This is a bit different than "Ya, its hard. So here, take this (which is way more complicated) and have fun". And lets be real, it is more complicated. There's a separate forum just for SM...

[DeepSea]

AJ...Thanks for your comments in here. I have enjoyed reading them!

[jj1987]

Why would that surprise you? If you know what an agency requirement is ... and you know that it's not something you can achieve ... then most rational folks would simply seek an alternative.
How would you know unless you seek training?

I "couldn't" learn computer programming...never thought if a good medical excuse for it, but anyways, it took someone who was "in the know" to nudge me in the correct direction by going to college. I "couldn't" shoot free throws in basketball, until working with a coach. I felt valve drills were the same way. Adjusting the harness, changing the angle you reach with, stretching, getting a properly fitting drysuit, etc are all things that nearly all divers get hung up on and "can't" do valve drills at first.

[NWGratefulDiver]

How would you know unless you seek training?
That's a curious question ... considering I probably have more training than you do.



I "couldn't" learn computer programming...never thought if a good medical excuse for it, but anyways, it took someone who was "in the know" to nudge me in the correct direction by going to college. I "couldn't" shoot free throws in basketball, until working with a coach. I felt valve drills were the same way. Adjusting the harness, changing the angle you reach with, stretching, getting a properly fitting drysuit, etc are all things that nearly all divers get hung up on and "can't" do valve drills at first.
But all the stuff you mention only helps to a point. It's easy to take that position when you have a 22-year old body to work with. When I was your age I was a competitive weight-lifter ... and pretty damn good at it, meaning I was nearly as good as I thought I was. With enough work I could achieve whatever goal I set for myself. But as I get older I find that working hard isn't always going to get me where I want to go. Nowadays my workouts max at about the weight I used to use for warm-ups.

Your body changes with age. In 30 years you won't be able to do all the things you do today ... no matter how hard you train. There comes a time when you either have to quit doing the things you love or find alternative ways of doing them. It's one of life's little realities ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[DA Aquamaster]

Your body changes with age. In 30 years you won't be able to do all the things you do today ... no matter how hard you train. There comes a time when you either have to quit doing the things you love or find alternative ways of doing them. It's one of life's little realities ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)I am finding at 45 that I can still do most of the things I did at 25, but I feel it a lot more and for a lot longer afterward. And a minor injury that took 2-3 days to heal now may take 2-3 weeks, so the cost of overdoing it is far higher now than it was then.

Bob's right, at some point you begin to re-evaluate what you do and why you do it. If it something that matters, you do it smarter with an eye toward long term sustainability. I suspect we all have a limited number of miles that we are going to be able to hump 130-140 pounds of doubles, BP and wing and while that number of miles may vary from person to person, everyone is going to hit their limit someday. When it comes to things like backs, joints and tendons I also think that the harder you push them the faster you are going to use up those finite resources. I have decided that if I want to be cave diving in my 60's, I need to ensure I work at staying in reasonable shape, but at the same time I need to eliminate uneccesary wear and tear on my knees, back etc. The fact that I can still hump a pair of doubles as well as I could 20 years ago is not the issue, the cumulative effects of the damage from 20 years of damage from humping doubles is an issue as is the reality that another 20 years may not be sustainable if I don't get a lot smarter and more strategic about it.

It does not take much from that perspective to see sidemount diving as a potentially valuable part of the long term sustainability plan.

Since I have been diving for 25 years, have dove doubles for 20 of those years, and hove dove doubles almost excusively for 10-15 of those years it is an issue of transitioning to sidemount. But what if I started diving at 45 with the same degree of wear and tear? Would diving sidemount make any less sense? Note that none of this has anything directly related to reaching valves as I still have great shoulder mobility - it's the back and knees that have sufferred the wear and tear.

[DA Aquamaster]

I have to agree with the saxophone player. A 7' hose when there's no chance of an overhead is just stupid.My ex-wife and I were doing a recreational dive with a segment under a heavy boat traffic channel at one point. She got close to the point we would have normally surfaced on gas, so I handed her my long hose as I was still very fat on gas to allow us to get past the heavy traffic area before surfacing. She was impressed with how easy it was and was sold ona long hose on the spot.

A year or so ago I was working with a new OW diver who needed work on basic skills. She was very uncomfortable with gas sharing - until we did it with a long hose. Her buoyancy almost immediately stabilized as we relaxed and after 15 minutes tooling around the quarry swimming in formation on my 7' hose while following the topography up and down and then eventually surfacing all fears of gas sharing and most of her buoyancy control issues were resolved. That comfort level also generalized back to a short hose, although she also realized and saw first hand that the short hose options are much more limited and more challenging.

I will stipulate that 7' is overkill for OW diving, but I think it would be really difficult to argue that a 5' or 6' hose is a bad call for an OW diver, if for no other reason than it works a lot better.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I will stipulate that 7' is overkill for OW diving, but I think it would be really difficult to argue that a 5' or 6' hose is a bad call for an OW diver, if for no other reason than it works a lot better.

Once again it depends on diver preference and application. When Cheng and I were in Indonesia we often shared air to "equalize" our tanks and extend our bottom time. We're both photographers, and it took a bit for the dive guides to get used to seeing the two of us sharing air while both hovering around a subject taking pictures from different angles. Then again, if they had something available for us to use besides those oversize aluminum beer cans they call scuba tanks, it wouldn't have been something we'd have considered doing.

In my AOW classes I'll often put a student on my long hose and do an ascent, just to show them what it feels like. More often than not they decide the advantages of being able to ascend with a buddy in a controlled, side-by-side or face-to-face manner is preferable to the standard vertical kicking ascent while holding onto each other ... and they end up switching over to that system.

About the only time I've ever found a long-hose inappropriate is on a working dive, where I'm using barrels or large lift bags to move really bulky or heavy things ... sometimes I have to "wrestle" with the things I'm rigging, and the hose across my chest tends to get in the way. Otherwise, I've yet to find a situation where I'd consider it "overkill" ... but perhaps it's because I'm more comfortable and familiar with that setup than the standard one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[RN]

I was going to respond to Pfc's bet, but lots of folks have already stated what I would...no point in repeating it. BTW, you'd lose that bet. That particular student is in his late 50s. Unless you have a miracle cure for aging joints... But don't worry, I'm a vegetarian, so no need to buy me a steak dinner. I won't eat it.

As for requiring SM certs, no one does that and I don't know of anyone planning on it. However agencies do require AOW...that's useful...

I also don't teach for the money. I have a real job in a profession that is shorthanded. I could work every day if I wanted to. I'd rather be in the water, though, if I can be. My students have to earn their cards. I even tell students when they're not ready for the next level. Sure I could just have them take the class, not issue the card, and charge them more for an extra day or 2. That's a waste of time, though, mine and the student's.

Oh, and FWIW, I teach backmount divers and I demonstrate valve drills. I even have a Twinset course scheduled next month. My joint issues are leg related, not shoulder related...yet...

[Slüdge]

In 30 years you won't be able to do all the things you do today

I can still do this:

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I will gladly accept RN's steak dinner. I will be sure to convey its goodness to him afterwards, in order for him to share in victory.

[Benderr]

Okay, so the arguments appear to be:

1. OW Divers don't NEED it.
2. OW divers are trying to be cool.
3. OW divers will kill themselves because they have a redundant system and more gas.

So you want to RESTRICT divers from a certain gear configuration because YOU think they don't need it, because YOU will look less cool (noobs wearing your tight gear and all) and because YOU want to save the stupid OW divers from themselves.

Sounds like an ego issue to me.

[jj1987]

Okay, so the arguments appear to be:

1. OW Divers don't NEED it.
2. OW divers are trying to be cool.
3. OW divers will kill themselves because they have a redundant system and more gas.

So you want to RESTRICT divers from a certain gear configuration because YOU think they don't need it, because YOU will look less cool (noobs wearing your tight gear and all) and because YOU want to save the stupid OW divers from themselves.

Sounds like an ego issue to me.

How do you feel about the no lights policy for OW divers at state parks then?

[adam0321]

I My students have to earn their cards. I even tell students when they're not ready for the next level. ..

i can testify to this statement

[PfcAJ]

No lights? Thats pure ego, dude. Stop it! Elitist!

[cavediver256]

Okay, so the arguments appear to be:

1. OW Divers don't NEED it.
2. OW divers are trying to be cool.
3. OW divers will kill themselves because they have a redundant system and more gas.

So you want to RESTRICT divers from a certain gear configuration because YOU think they don't need it, because YOU will look less cool (noobs wearing your tight gear and all) and because YOU want to save the stupid OW divers from themselves.

Sounds like an ego issue to me.

Actually, the one thing I would like to save is access to OUR cave systems. But, I know, you should be able to dive how you want....(and if that is the case, where you want as well). Every diver should be able to take a light and swim to where ever the hell they want to swim, because it is their god given right to do so.....just like it is their god given right to wear a SM rig if they want. I mean who are we to try and protect them from themselves?????? Hell we have been trying to keep these events from taking place since Sheck started his accident analysis, but that was just plain dumb.

Now we are allowing divers not trained in overhead to wear doubles, and SM rigs in and around our springs. Anybody besides me think, at a bare minimum, the untrained divers were easier to spot 3-4 years ago, and we could actually police our own ranks?????

[Benderr]

How do you feel about the no lights policy for OW divers at state parks then?

Apples and oranges.

I consider a light a piece of safety gear, and never dive without one..... Except when the operator has the rule. It's a reasonable request for a good reason. But for the record, I'm not advocating making flashlights unavailable to OW divers, or saying we shouldn't allow them because OW divers don't need flashlights (I carry 2-3 on virtually every dive, even daylight dives with no overheads for miles). If someone requires me to ditch a light in exchange for the privileged of using their facilities or accessing their site, I'll decide if it's worth it or not. So far, the one place I've dove with the requirement was worth ditching my lights for.

My self image isn't tied to my gear, so I'm not threatened if someone wants to use a bigger flashlight than I do. It's not my place to question's one need or motives for wanting to dive a different configuration, ESPECIALLY if that system increases their safety by adding redundancy. Additionally, I don't care. If you can safely dive with a clown suit and a big red wig, then enjoy yourself.

[jj1987]

I take a dive light everywhere, too. However, when diving with OW divers in state parks, I look at the big picture and appreciate the rule. It's not about penis size, it's about cave access....and each death is a step backwards in proving that cave divers are safe and it's not a big deal to allow them to dive your cave.

[Slüdge]

if someone wants to use a bigger flashlight than I do.

WHAT? Somebody has a bigger flashlight?

[Benderr]

Actually, the one thing I would like to save is access to OUR cave systems. But, I know, you should be able to dive how you want....(and if that is the case, where you want as well). Every diver should be able to take a light and swim to where ever the hell they want to swim, because it is their god given right to do so.....just like it is their god given right to wear a SM rig if they want. I mean who are we to try and protect them from themselves?????? Hell we have been trying to keep these events from taking place since Sheck started his accident analysis, but that was just plain dumb.

Now we are allowing divers not trained in overhead to wear doubles, and SM rigs in and around our springs. Anybody besides me think, at a bare minimum, the untrained divers were easier to spot 3-4 years ago, and we could actually police our own ranks?????

Yep, those caves belong to you alright.

How many people die in caves because of the gear they have? A sidemount rig is not going to kill anyone. Ego on the other hand most certainly will. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was ego that killed Sheck, not the gear he was wearing.

[Benderr]

I take a dive light everywhere, too. However, when diving with OW divers in state parks, I look at the big picture and appreciate the rule. It's not about penis size, it's about cave access....and each death is a step backwards in proving that cave divers are safe and it's not a big deal to allow them to dive your cave.

I care that site access is lost (even if I'm not allowed to access it atm). I also care that people are expiring while diving (inside a cave or not). What I don't care about is the gear YOU wear. If you can dive safely with it then good for you.

Gear-Nazis will not be able to save stupid people from themselves, anymore than a sign or flashlight ban will be able to save them.

[Slüdge]

How many people die in caves because of the gear they have?

Benderr, I agree with most of what you've said, but I honestly believe that without sidemount gear, Ben McDaniel would still be alive.

[CaveBuddy95]

Gone a bit off topic here Mod!

As for sidemount, people should take a course. Like any other dive specialties.

;)

[RN]

Benderr, I agree with most of what you've said, but I honestly believe that without sidemount gear, Ben McDaniel would still be alive.

So you saying if he was in backmounted doubles he would still be alive?? You honestly believe that??

He'd probably be easier to find if he was in backmounted doubles, but alive...

[NWGratefulDiver]

How do you feel about the no lights policy for OW divers at state parks then?

I feel that adults should have the right to be as stupid as they want to be, so long as they accept full responsibility for the consequences of their stupidity.

Personally, I think that people who willfully break the rules should have to pay for the cost of their rescue (in any recreational activity) ... and if they should die and their family wants their body recovered, they should be responsible for the costs of recovery.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

Benderr, I agree with most of what you've said, but I honestly believe that without sidemount gear, Ben McDaniel would still be alive.

I don't. If Ben proved nothing else he demonstrated a single-mindedness toward goal-oriented diving ... and that's something that I was taught cave divers shouldn't do. I think Ben would've done what he did if he had to dive a single rig, drop stages every couple hundred feet, and remove his rig to wriggle through that hole. The fact that he went to the trouble to jury-rig the gate demonstrated his willfulness to do whatever it took, and damn the consequences.

It wasn't his gear that killed him ... it was his ego. He just wasn't nearly as good as he thought himself to be ... and that attitude's been killing young men in every conceivable activity for millenia.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Slüdge]

He'd probably be easier to find if he was in backmounted doubles, but alive...

Very good point. Change my "would" to "might."

It's very possible that having sidemount configuration allowed him to get himself into a location from which he was unable to escape.

[jj1987]

I feel that adults should have the right to be as stupid as they want to be, so long as they accept full responsibility for the consequences of their stupidity.

Personally, I think that people who willfully break the rules should have to pay for the cost of their rescue (in any recreational activity) ... and if they should die and their family wants their body recovered, they should be responsible for the costs of recovery.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob,

They're dead, the full consequences of their actions they'll never see. It's the rest of us who can't gain site access, have to hear about friends risking it to go get a body (or for some, actually be the one taking risk), bear the financial responsibility of the body search (cave divers donated quite a bit to the EN fatality), and have families who worry because they don't understand what separates us from those who are dying.

Peacock, Ginnie, and Manatee are cool and all, but I heard a rumor there were 1 or 2 more caves in FL than those....and what do you tell the land owners when people are dropping like flies? I've talked to 2 landowners in the past year, and both of them stated that they'd love to allow access, but liability prevents it. I know PFCAJ spoke with a few as well, and I've talked to Kelly about a few sites he's tried to open, the cold shoulder is hard to overcome unless we can improve our safety record.

As for leaving the body in there unless the family pays, that would be bad for business. I can't imagine Vortex hasn't lost any business over this whole ordeal, and when OW diving only becomes more profitable....well I'm not accounting & finance major, but I know what I'd do if I owned the land.

I really wish we could live in the box where we could let stupid people be stupid. Legalize hard drugs under the terms that if you use them, we don't offer ANY medical care insurance, you foot 100% of the bill and are last priority at the hospital. We'd save tons on government aide programs, and I'd be all for it, but people would drive under the influence, there's kids who get caught in domestic violence, cost of police to stop public displays of unacceptable behavior, etc. We effect people in more ways than we know it.

[KarsticGator]

Legalize hard drugs under the terms that if you use them, we don't offer ANY medical care insurance, you foot 100% of the bill and are last priority at the hospital. We'd save tons on government aide programs, and I'd be all for it, but people would drive under the influence, there's kids who get caught in domestic violence, cost of police to stop public displays of unacceptable behavior, etc. We effect people in more ways than we know it.

I think someone needs to "blaze up" and chill out.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Bob,

They're dead, the full consequences of their actions they'll never see. It's the rest of us who can't gain site access, have to hear about friends risking it to go get a body (or for some, actually be the one taking risk), bear the financial responsibility of the body search (cave divers donated quite a bit to the EN fatality), and have families who worry because they don't understand what separates us from those who are dying.

Peacock, Ginnie, and Manatee are cool and all, but I heard a rumor there were 1 or 2 more caves in FL than those....and what do you tell the land owners when people are dropping like flies? I've talked to 2 landowners in the past year, and both of them stated that they'd love to allow access, but liability prevents it. I know PFCAJ spoke with a few as well, and I've talked to Kelly about a few sites he's tried to open, the cold shoulder is hard to overcome unless we can improve our safety record.

As for leaving the body in there unless the family pays, that would be bad for business. I can't imagine Vortex hasn't lost any business over this whole ordeal, and when OW diving only becomes more profitable....well I'm not accounting & finance major, but I know what I'd do if I owned the land.

I really wish we could live in the box where we could let stupid people be stupid. Legalize hard drugs under the terms that if you use them, we don't offer ANY medical care insurance, you foot 100% of the bill and are last priority at the hospital. We'd save tons on government aide programs, and I'd be all for it, but people would drive under the influence, there's kids who get caught in domestic violence, cost of police to stop public displays of unacceptable behavior, etc. We effect people in more ways than we know it.
You make some reasonable points, James ... but you will never, ever, be able to protect people from themselves. Determined fools will always find ways around whatever safeguards you put in place ... and the only people who will be affected by them will be the people who don't need the "protection" in the first place.

The Vortext casualty is a classic example ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mstueven]

Okay, so the arguments appear to be:

1. OW Divers don't NEED it.
2. OW divers are trying to be cool.
3. OW divers will kill themselves because they have a redundant system and more gas.

So you want to RESTRICT divers from a certain gear configuration because YOU think they don't need it, because YOU will look less cool (noobs wearing your tight gear and all) and because YOU want to save the stupid OW divers from themselves.

Sounds like an ego issue to me.

I suppose requiring cave training to enter an overhead environment and restricting divers from accessing pure O2 for deco is all ego too? Trust me, I can admit I have an ego. And I will fully admit that I'm very proud of my diving certifications, some of which were TOUGH to get. I'll even boast that (like Tony) I chose to dive doubles before I had any technical certifications. Of course, I did so under the guidance of a mentor, who later became my instructor when I had a bit more experience.

Listen, I am not advocating in any way that we restrict SM to only those carrying a c-card. Dive in the gear configuration that's cool. That's okay by me. Better yet dive the gear configuration needed for the environment. And taking a class with a qualified instructor (RN for example) is also an excellent idea. ESPECIALLY if they are just starting to get into more technical diving.

History shows us that the rules are basically there to keep honest people honest. If you establish certain standards, people will follow them for the most part. What scares the bejeezus out of me is the idea of a lax SM course that promotes the 'cool' factor and fails to educate the diver about safety. Or the idea that an OW diver with a SM c-card suddenly feels licensed to enter an overhead - after all, they now have a 'redundant' gas supply!

I'm afraid that divers are too diverse to nail this discussion down. I really don't support the 'typical' OW diver using sidemount - or being encouraged to do so. Maybe being a DM has jaded me too much but they won't look at ONE pressure gauge let alone TWO. For so many of them, the dive ends when the computer starts beeping.

Now, an OW or AOW diver who is driven a little, you bet! With some training, they can be enjoying sidemount or doubles in no time with a bit of training and guidance.

And for a diver already making technical dives, SM is just a matter of learning a new configuration of gear, not an entirely new skill set.

In this case, it's not my ego that's the problem though, it's the narcissistic quarry commando with the over-inflated self-image that thinks because he has a cool kit he doesn't have to swim in the kiddie pool any more.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I suppose requiring cave training to enter an overhead environment and restricting divers from accessing pure O2 for deco is all ego too? Trust me, I can admit I have an ego. And I will fully admit that I'm very proud of my diving certifications, some of which were TOUGH to get. I'll even boast that (like Tony) I chose to dive doubles before I had any technical certifications. Of course, I did so under the guidance of a mentor, who later became my instructor when I had a bit more experience.

Listen, I am not advocating in any way that we restrict SM to only those carrying a c-card. Dive in the gear configuration that's cool. That's okay by me. Better yet dive the gear configuration needed for the environment. And taking a class with a qualified instructor (RN for example) is also an excellent idea. ESPECIALLY if they are just starting to get into more technical diving.

History shows us that the rules are basically there to keep honest people honest. If you establish certain standards, people will follow them for the most part. What scares the bejeezus out of me is the idea of a lax SM course that promotes the 'cool' factor and fails to educate the diver about safety. Or the idea that an OW diver with a SM c-card suddenly feels licensed to enter an overhead - after all, they now have a 'redundant' gas supply!

I'm afraid that divers are too diverse to nail this discussion down. I really don't support the 'typical' OW diver using sidemount - or being encouraged to do so. Maybe being a DM has jaded me too much but they won't look at ONE pressure gauge let alone TWO. For so many of them, the dive ends when the computer starts beeping.

Now, an OW or AOW diver who is driven a little, you bet! With some training, they can be enjoying sidemount or doubles in no time with a bit of training and guidance.

And for a diver already making technical dives, SM is just a matter of learning a new configuration of gear, not an entirely new skill set.

In this case, it's not my ego that's the problem though, it's the narcissistic quarry commando with the over-inflated self-image that thinks because he has a cool kit he doesn't have to swim in the kiddie pool any more.

If you're worried about that guy, how do you feel about the promotion of these new models of "recreational" CCR?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tegg]

I don't think they should restrict who takes sidemount training whether for OW, wreck, or cave. Sidemount is a style of diving, just like backmount. Teaching someone how to do it right, is the best option, period. What that person does with the knowledge is on that person.

Personal responsibility is still key in diving, no matter what agencies try to teach.

I did like the discussion that took place so far and it was a decent topic from what I can see. :)

*PS*
As far as those who say sidemount is not for boat diving... When being done with a well sorted out OW system, it is quite easy to dive off a boat with it. Heck, this weekend I did it and was "more stable" then the OW divers with the tanks on their backs... (my sidemounted tanks made my center of gravity lower and as such I was not as affected by boat movements while walking)

[mstueven]

If you're worried about that guy, how do you feel about the promotion of these new models of "recreational" CCR?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Diving is going to evolve and we can either stay up with it or it will pass us by...whether it's sidemount or CCR's... I'm not ready for CCR but I can't say it isn't something that I won't have to face down the road. And I definitely don't know enough about CCR/SCR to decide for someone else, but I'd sure suggest they do their homework before they take that leap!

[mccoy]

I'm one of the people who have taken a sidemount course but have no overhead training. I plan to get some more open water time then get into overhead training. I thought it would be a waste of time to take a cavern class in a single then learn either backmounted doubles or sidemount.
I didn't really want to deal with dragging BM doubles around........some think it's the easy way out but you only have one back! I drive a few hours to dive and it makes loading down my car easier.
Just my input from the other side of the fence.......

[Line Squirrel]

nvm - poorly formulated question, too ambiguous.

[RN]

It's very possible that having sidemount configuration allowed him to get himself into a location from which he was unable to escape.

No, it's just possible it allowed him to get farther into the system before he got himself into a location from which he was unable to escape...

[DA Aquamaster]

The fact remains it was not sidemount that killed him - it was his own inability to recognize and stay within the limits of his training and ability. If someone cannot do that they are quite simply an accident in search of a place to happen and it won't matter over the long term what their configuration happens to be - the outcome will be the same.

[WJefferis]

The fact remains it was not sidemount that killed him - it was his own inability to recognize and stay within the limits of his training and ability. If someone cannot do that they are quite simply an accident in search of a place to happen and it won't matter over the long term what their configuration happens to be - the outcome will be the same.


Well stated :clapper.

[FFDiver221]

Diving is going to evolve and we can either stay up with it or it will pass us by...whether it's sidemount or CCR's... I'm not ready for CCR but I can't say it isn't something that I won't have to face down the road. And I definitely don't know enough about CCR/SCR to decide for someone else, but I'd sure suggest they do their homework before they take that leap!

That is the big key that makes a safe diver for the most part is doing their homework. If a person does their homework and decides to try something new then they have taken the first steps to doing it right. I have researched sidemount diving for OW and I have determined it to be a suitable alternative and I have set up all my gear to get ready to try it. Does that mean I am going to run to the first cave and so right in becuase I am the cool new guy with SM, not in your wildest dreams. I am not cave certified yet, however when I am then it makes sense to use it when doing. Do I want to be proficient at whatever I am going to be using, yes. If a person cant be proficient in OW then trying it an overhead environment is just asking for bad things. You cant train out stupidity and unfortunatley their are people out their like that. So if a person is going to be stupid they better be tough and also have some good insurance so their family can bury them.

You are correct about diving evolving and I wonder what it will be like twenty years from now. We never know what will be invented at some point. How people embrace technology and embrace it safely determines a great deal about discussions here. I suspect we will continue this discussions for many years to come and you cant breed out stupidity and egos.

[DA Aquamaster]

You are correct about diving evolving and I wonder what it will be like twenty years from now. We never know what will be invented at some point. How people embrace technology and embrace it safely determines a great deal about discussions here. I suspect we will continue this discussions for many years to come and you cant breed out stupidity and egos.The long hose came out of cave commuity as did the now very common BP and wing concept. Other items that have become mainstream have also been credited to cave diving. In that regard, it is interesting that there is so much resistance to the sidemount concept also becoming mainstream. What seems to have changed is the "turf issues".

[FFDiver221]

The long hose came out of cave commuity as did the now very common BP and wing concept. Other items that have become mainstream have also been credited to cave diving. In that regard, it is interesting that there is so much resistance to the sidemount concept also becoming mainstream. What seems to have changed is the "turf issues".

I agree that many good things have come out of cave diving and I for one am happy to see good things come from people diving. It also seems like it is a turf issue at times as you state. I wonder if doubles had the same issues as I just dont know. Maybe some one that has been around for a long time can give a little insight if there have been other turf issues as they relate to gear. To me it would flatter me that other people wanted to adopt a better way of diving as long as it is done safely and for the right reasons. Just doing it to be cool or to do something unsafe then they need their butts kicked because all it does is create problems for many people.

[standingbear56]

Since Sidemount is now a PADI specialty, it is most likely here to stay as a recreational OW specialty. Personally I have switched to SM because a combination of Spinal Stenosis, 3 Herniated discs and arthritis has made it impossible for me to carry a cylinder on my back - even a single AL 63. The cummerbund transfers the weight right on to the area my spine is most injured. With sidemount, I dive LP 95s all the time, with no problems. I also solo dive and the ability to reach my valves, plus the redundancy is an added plus. There is absolutely no reason why a properly trained OW diver cannot or should not go sidemount, or for that matter, use dual cylinders at all. These are is simply another options that people can use. The idea that the switching of regulators is too complicated for the OW diver is nonsense. If an OW diver cannot take having the regulator out of his/her mouth for a few seconds, then they have no business being a diver, and their instructor(s) have not met the standards of any agency in passing them. It takes longer to do a sweep or reach method of regulator recovery than it does to switch from one regulator to another in SM. Yes, you have to keep an eye on gas usage, and that is one of the things which is covered in any SM course. Basic gas monitoring is covered in all OW courses. You know, it seems to me that it was only yesterday when some were arguing that Nitrox was too complicated for the OW diver. Now it's mainstream. So long as the diver who wants to OW SM is properly trained, there is no reason why they cannot. Yes, there will be some who will screw up. There are divers of all levels and specialties, including cave diving, who really shouldn't be there. No one can argue that. However, for the handicapped diver such as myself, SM enables me to keep diving. It is the proper tool for the job, even if that job is in OW. My diving buddies have no problems working with me in SM and I have no problems working with them in BM. Why is this such an issue?
Take care & Save Diving,
George

[BOTTOMTIMER]

standingbear56
Since Sidemount is now a PADI specialty, it is most likely here to stay as a recreational OW specialty. Personally I have switched to SM because a combination of Spinal Stenosis, 3 Herniated discs and arthritis has made it impossible for me to carry a cylinder on my back - even a single AL 63. The cummerbund transfers the weight right on to the area my spine is most injured. With sidemount, I dive LP 95s all the time, with no problems. I also solo dive and the ability to reach my valves, plus the redundancy is an added plus. There is absolutely no reason why a properly trained OW diver cannot or should not go sidemount, or for that matter, use dual cylinders at all. These are is simply another options that people can use. The idea that the switching of regulators is too complicated for the OW diver is nonsense. If an OW diver cannot take having the regulator out of his/her mouth for a few seconds, then they have no business being a diver, and their instructor(s) have not met the standards of any agency in passing them. It takes longer to do a sweep or reach method of regulator recovery than it does to switch from one regulator to another in SM. Yes, you have to keep an eye on gas usage, and that is one of the things which is covered in any SM course. Basic gas monitoring is covered in all OW courses. You know, it seems to me that it was only yesterday when some were arguing that Nitrox was too complicated for the OW diver. Now it's mainstream. So long as the diver who wants to OW SM is properly trained, there is no reason why they cannot. Yes, there will be some who will screw up. There are divers of all levels and specialties, including cave diving, who really shouldn't be there. No one can argue that. However, for the handicapped diver such as myself, SM enables me to keep diving. It is the proper tool for the job, even if that job is in OW. My diving buddies have no problems working with me in SM and I have no problems working with them in BM. Why is this such an issue?
Take care & Save Diving,
George


+1:clapper

[phillip1]

Since Sidemount is now a PADI specialty, it is most likely here to stay as a recreational OW specialty. Personally I have switched to SM because a combination of Spinal Stenosis, 3 Herniated discs and arthritis has made it impossible for me to carry a cylinder on my back - even a single AL 63. The cummerbund transfers the weight right on to the area my spine is most injured. With sidemount, I dive LP 95s all the time, with no problems. I also solo dive and the ability to reach my valves, plus the redundancy is an added plus. There is absolutely no reason why a properly trained OW diver cannot or should not go sidemount, or for that matter, use dual cylinders at all. These are is simply another options that people can use. The idea that the switching of regulators is too complicated for the OW diver is nonsense. If an OW diver cannot take having the regulator out of his/her mouth for a few seconds, then they have no business being a diver, and their instructor(s) have not met the standards of any agency in passing them. It takes longer to do a sweep or reach method of regulator recovery than it does to switch from one regulator to another in SM. Yes, you have to keep an eye on gas usage, and that is one of the things which is covered in any SM course. Basic gas monitoring is covered in all OW courses. You know, it seems to me that it was only yesterday when some were arguing that Nitrox was too complicated for the OW diver. Now it's mainstream. So long as the diver who wants to OW SM is properly trained, there is no reason why they cannot. Yes, there will be some who will screw up. There are divers of all levels and specialties, including cave diving, who really shouldn't be there. No one can argue that. However, for the handicapped diver such as myself, SM enables me to keep diving. It is the proper tool for the job, even if that job is in OW. My diving buddies have no problems working with me in SM and I have no problems working with them in BM. Why is this such an issue?
Take care & Save Diving,
George

Great post and I agree EANX is way more complicated than mere SM.
Also in addition to the long list of advantages SM has, what about a very important and often overlooked aspect of SM, it's waaaaay more fun than BM and I thought that's why everyone got into diving in the first place.

[Slüdge]

I agree EANX is way more complicated than mere SM.

One of the shops I work in teaches a one-hour nitrox course, so I guess he could teach you everything you need to know about sidemount in about 45 minutes...

[cavediver256]

One of the shops I work in teaches a one-hour nitrox course, so I guess he could teach you everything you need to know about sidemount in about 45 minutes...

LOL, that depends if you want the stage bottle regulator swapping course at the same time.....45 minutes for the entire course, without the add-on, 35 minutes tops !!!!

[diverpaul69]

You make some good points but I don't have a cave to keep Proficient in. I s m dive all summer in open water to practice my cave skills. I would not want to dive all year in single tank bm and then cave dive in S M. It would be a bit scary. I think the main concern in S M diving is you don't have a quick weight ditching option.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What quick weight ditching options does BM have that SM doesn't?

[jj1987]

What quick weight ditching options does BM have that SM doesn't?
Furthermore, why would you want to ditch weight unless you're diving an unbalanced rig?

[Tegg]

Furthermore, why would you want to ditch weight unless you're diving an unbalanced rig?

See that's your issue... You question why something is needed. It doesn't matter. BM is cooler then SM. I am switching back to BM since everyone else is going SM now... so I can be "different".

[jj1987]

See that's your issue... You question why something is needed. It doesn't matter. BM is cooler then SM. I am switching back to BM since everyone else is going SM now... so I can be "different".

I just hate putting a ton of time into solving problems that don't exist. I work in the IT field for a living, I do enough of that already. After 5 days of answering "My email doesn't work" and realizing it's not the email server being down, it's the user being too stupid to type settings into outlook, I just hate solving problems I don't have to on the weekend.

[Benderr]

BM is cooler then SM.

Exactly! Can you imagine how dorky Jacques would look diving a side-mount rig in his signature speed-o's?

[Slüdge]

Joe saw my post on Facebook about putting together a sidemount rig and now he's running away screaming!

[RN]

I just hate putting a ton of time into solving problems that don't exist. I work in the IT field for a living, I do enough of that already. After 5 days of answering "My email doesn't work" and realizing it's not the email server being down, it's the user being too stupid to type settings into outlook, I just hate solving problems I don't have to on the weekend.

What problems are you referring to? Or, what problems do you think people are trying to solve? There are no problems with backmount...except the manifold...and not being able to see the valves or 1st stages... :D

[SuPrBuGmAn]

...or all the cave that you can't get into.

[jj1987]

...or all the cave that you can't get into.
Which cave can't I get into? :P


There are no problems with backmount...except the manifold...and not being able to see the valves or 1st stages... :D
It's difficult reaching 3 inches behind the shoulder to grab a large knob, but we manage. We'll have to agree to disagree on the manifold, I've never heard of a single person (except Sheck's buddy diving deep air) who has had a complete loss of gas (or even half of it) in doubles, and feathering them, especially scootering or in a siltout where one hand is on the line, isn't all that ideal. Personally I feel safer when I dive BM vs when I dive SM as far as redundancy, but we're never going to agree on that.

[Slüdge]

Even if you DO have a total gas loss, diving the rule of thirds covers that.

(Okay, we all know that if you have a total gas loss at max penetration, thirds isn't enough, but if you have the one-in-a-jillion total gas loss, you're unlikely to be AT max penetration.)

Some people like to prepare for the virtually impossible. I, on the other hand, recognize that I can be run over by a bus on the way to the cave.

[phillip1]

Even if you DO have a total gas loss, diving the rule of thirds covers that.

(Okay, we all know that if you have a total gas loss at max penetration, thirds isn't enough, but if you have the one-in-a-jillion total gas loss, you're unlikely to be AT max penetration.)

Some people like to prepare for the virtually impossible. I, on the other hand, recognize that I can be run over by a bus on the way to the cave.

Ok so then why bother planning for a total gas loss situation at all in cave training then? I thought this was supposed to be one of the pillars of the whole buddy gas sharing planning thirds etc..drills.

[Slüdge]

That's what the Rule of Thirds is.

[phillip1]

But if a total gas loss at max penetration is so unlikely like a one in a jillion then why bother to even use the rule of thirds? Or any any one in a jillion back up plan for that matter.
If I could have a backup plan that would take up very little if any of my time and effort but help get me out of a one in a jillion commercial airline crash, I would do it on every flight.

[Slüdge]

But if a total gas loss at max penetration is so unlikely like a one in a jillion then why bother to even use the rule of thirds?

Because in the event of that one-in-a-jillion occurrence, not doing so would mean certain death.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Which cave can't I get into? :P

Alot of them, and you know that. Tossing out your BM doubles in front of you for an entire dive just isn't practicle, if you're gonna throw that nonsense out :)

[jj1987]

But if a total gas loss at max penetration is so unlikely like a one in a jillion then why bother to even use the rule of thirds? Or any any one in a jillion back up plan for that matter.
If I could have a backup plan that would take up very little if any of my time and effort but help get me out of a one in a jillion commercial airline crash, I would do it on every flight.

Rule of 1/3rds is for siltouts, correcting navigational errors, time to regroup a team if you're lost, etc. A hypothetical and improbable complete loss of gas is real low on the list of reasons I adhere to 1/3rds.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

...A hypothetical and improbable complete loss of gas is real low on the list of reasons I adhere to 1/3rds.

If you were ever in a hypothetical and improbable complete loss of gas at max penetration, you'd likely die anyway :P

[phillip1]

Not in SM, and i never dive to thirds, but yes agreed it is a very remote reason and there is a myriad of other much more likely problems that can happen, all the more reason that i never dive to thirds.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

If you dive SM, and lose a tank at max penetration(for whatever reason), diving to thirds, I'd say your probably screwed.

[Slüdge]

If you dive SM, and lose a tank at max penetration(for whatever reason), diving to thirds, I'd say your probably screwed.

Why? Watchin, eatin my co

[DA Aquamaster]

If you dive SM, and lose a tank at max penetration(for whatever reason), diving to thirds, I'd say your probably screwed.Only if you are solo. Diving thirds is pretty stupid to begin with when reducing the penetration gas by only 100-200psi creates a lot more safety margin, and diving thirds when solo would be really stupid.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Thats my point, you don't have enough to get yourself out.

[standingbear56]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but what about H valves when using SM? Simply shut off the damaged regulator and go to the secondary. I've actually used this configuration in OW (no I'm NOT claiming it is the same as Cave) and it works fine. So long as the valves are tucked in, there isn't much to get damaged. It would also make loosing an entire cylinder an unlikely event, hence enough air to get yourself out. There are the same number of seams between the valves as in backmount - two, so you are not adding on more complexity than used in backmount. However it is a lot less complicated than not having enough air to get yourself out after maximum penetration, correct? If the valve did get snared, you can reach them to untangle them - which is one of the most valuable features sidemount offers. Just a thought.
Take care & safe diving,
George

[SuPrBuGmAn]

People do that... in Intro to Cave, if they don't want to go ahead and dive dual cylinders from the get-go...

[Meister481]

If you dive SM, and lose a tank at max penetration(for whatever reason), diving to thirds, I'd say your probably screwed.

In a low/no flow cave, yes. With Flow, maybe not.

No need to do it, regardless of your reasoning. Pushing gas rules is silly when we have so many ways to carry extra bottles adeptly.

[alanf]

I dive once a week in OW with my wife. I sidemount 40's on a razor. She dives a single 80 on her back. We are both scootering. We do shore dive so have to walk a bit over rocks (30 -40m) which she doesn't like too much. She will likely start sidemounting 40's too when I sort out some better buoyancy than an MSR bag, which is definitely out of her league.

I like it a lot, little bottles, superstreamlined. She is not a great diver but even she, I am sure can manage the taskloading of switching regs once in a while. If I keep her happy in the open water once a week I get the rest of the week in the caves. Everybody wins!

This is a different perspective but nobody here is considering 40's in OW.

[Tegg]

If you dive SM, and lose a tank at max penetration(for whatever reason), diving to thirds, I'd say your probably screwed.

Not in Manatee or Ginnie and many other "high flow" caves... (if in main trunk passage)

[CaveBuddy95]

If you loose a tank, its bad!
Can't imagine how but here in Mexico, we have what the Mayans call Aluxes, little creatures living in the caves, I always consider them during my dive plan!
It's been reported that if you enter a cave without previous arrangment with the Aluxes, well, put it simply, it's a bad idea...

;)

[DA Aquamaster]

If you loose a tank, its bad!
Can't imagine how but here in Mexico, we have what the Mayans call Aluxes, little creatures living in the caves, I always consider them during my dive plan!
It's been reported that if you enter a cave without previous arrangment with the Aluxes, well, put it simply, it's a bad idea...

;)I always consult the metaclorians to ensure the Force will be with me on the dive. Even with the Force being with me, I am not inclined to push to thirds in a low flow cave with a 2 man team in backmount or sidemount.

[Slüdge]

Somebody's a nerd...

(I had to Google "metaclorian" to see what you were talking about.)

[Xenia]

Matt I agree it is still a redundant airsource, so is a spareair, so is keeping in OW where the surface is a viable option for a redundant airsource.........we are talking NON-technical diving here.....no cave, no cavern, no deco, no wreck penetration.

My question "how/where would SM be more beneficial than a single AL tank?????" was a question of medical benefit....Personally, if a single AL 80 is whipping someone's ass, maybe trying to dive two of them (in any configuration) is a bad idea.

Not sure if there are many examples but I have one:

I have seen a lady, very thin and small build (no more than 45kg weight, no more than 1.50m height), and she was OW certified, loved the diving but could not carry an AL80 to save her life. So she was learning how to dive the sidemount on steel 45s. I respect that, I do not understand why a person should not be diving if they cannot lift an AL 80... but I also don't think there are many people that cannot lift an AL 80..

I was on BM at the time I saw her, she was quite fascinated that I could stand up with the doubles (heck I could lift her on my back, she was lighter than the doubles!!). I am not too big either (62 kg, 1.64 m height), but I have strong legs. I did start on BM, got my full cave on BM and now I am on sidemount. I did have a couple of dangerous falls on BM on my back (glad I did not break anything!) that made me reconsider the safety. I also like tight places. I was diving steel 95s, still on 95s but on sidemount.

This is an exception, does not make a rule for OW sidemount at all. Personally I do not see any use of OW sidemount for a recreational OW diver, except for the example above.

[CaveBuddy95]

Difference between metachlorians and Aluxes is that Aluxes exist!! :)
As for diving 1/3 in Mexico, it's not a good idea. What if the Aluxes...

[DA Aquamaster]

Somebody's a nerd...

(I had to Google "metaclorian" to see what you were talking about.)Wow...I must have spelled it right. Yay! I'm not sure I am a nerd but it might be sexually transmitted as my girlfriend has "flirty, dirty and nerdy" tank stickers on her doubles.

Edit: Crap...I spelled it wrong - it is midi-chlorians. I guess I lose my pseudo-nerd status and Marci will probably have to dump me now. The good news is Google still works even when your spelling sucks.

In any event the moral is don't dive to thirds in low flow caves on two person teams lest the Darth Vader breathy noises from your breathy thingy stop before you are out of the cave.

[CaveBuddy95]

-comment deleted by author due to lack of content-
;)

[AcDriver]

I have to agree with the saxophone player. A 7' hose when there's no chance of an overhead is just stupid.


How about diving in very cold water far from shore in a single tank config and your regulator starts to freeflow. You shutdown your tank and share gas with your buddy on his long hose. You call the dive and head towards shore. Surfacing means a 10 minute swim in rough cold, windy conditions. Not a good choice. With the long hose you and your buddy start for shore relaxed and swimming efficiently and coming up to shallow depth to outgas in case things go further pear-shaped. After a couple of minutes to 'warm" the regulator in the nice 35 degree water you turn the free flow tank back on and all is well. In the meantime you have made efficient and safe progress towards safety and warmth. Something that would have been a lot more uncomfortable to do sharing gas with a short hose. It didn't seem "stupid" then. It seemed very relaxed and safe and smart. I can't imagine diving without a long hose.

Just because you CAN surface doesn't mean that surfacing is always the smarter thing to do.

Sorry for taking this thread EVEN FURTHER off topic.

[DA Aquamaster]

How about diving in very cold water far from shore in a single tank config and your regulator starts to freeflow. You shutdown your tank and share gas with your buddy on his long hose. You call the dive and head towards shore. Surfacing means a 10 minute swim in rough cold, windy conditions. Not a good choice. With the long hose you and your buddy start for shore relaxed and swimming efficiently and coming up to shallow depth to outgas in case things go further pear-shaped. After a couple of minutes to 'warm" the regulator in the nice 35 degree water you turn the free flow tank back on and all is well. In the meantime you have made efficient and safe progress towards safety and warmth. Something that would have been a lot more uncomfortable to do sharing gas with a short hose. It didn't seem "stupid" then. It seemed very relaxed and safe and smart. I can't imagine diving without a long hose.

Just because you CAN surface doesn't mean that surfacing is always the smarter thing to do.

Sorry for taking this thread EVEN FURTHER off topic.It's a good example and I have done exactly that in the past.

The accepted OW doctrine is if you have a freeflow or other failure, you surface immediately, but the reality is that this "ascend immediately" doctrine was adopted in an era of buddy breathing and continued to make sense when the only option was a short hose air share where the ability to swim efficiently was compromised. The long hose adds additional options and in general, assuming the diver does not get confused by them and make poor decisions, more options are better than fewer options. If you dive long enough, even in OIW, you will encounter problems that can be resolved in a safer and/or more efficient manner using a long hose.