Underwater Speleology (UWS)

[DeepSea]

I received the most recent Underwater Speleology (UWS) last week and meant to post something.

Once again, I greatly appreciate all those the contributed to the article as well as Beth Murphy putting it together.

There has been much discussion about ending the printed version of UWS due to the costs. I for one, think that my membership dues are well worth paying in order to keep this fine journal in print. It may be a significant item on the CDS P&L but it is what most members (in my discussions) value the most. I am still not sure why so few people that have represented (and still do represent) the entire CDS membership want to put an end to it.

Again, it was great seeing such another great UWS! Thank You!

[fno]

I did not realize there has been any discussion at all about not printing UWS. This discussion took place a year ago and the members voted overwhelmingly (like 88 responses) to keep the print version. It is a large cost to the section and the bottom line is that the membership fee does not cover the printing and mailing of four issues. One of the reasons that we have to raise funds with sales of CDS items. I am in total agreemant that the UWS should continue to be printed. Do we need color on every page? Probably not. There are several ways to get the costs in line with our objective. I recall at the last meeting there was talk of many copies being returned for bad addresses. That has to be fixed today, not tomorrow.

Regards, Frank Ohidy, Director, NSS-CDS.

[WEPIV]

I wanted to say thank you again to Beth for the excellent job she did with the journal.
I always knew when I e-mailed her my photos that she would lay them out perfectly in the magazine -- and that's not something a photographer ever takes for granted.

[gsulliva]

I did not realize there has been any discussion at all about not printing UWS. This discussion took place a year ago and the members voted overwhelmingly (like 88 responses) to keep the print version. It is a large cost to the section and the bottom line is that the membership fee does not cover the printing and mailing of four issues.
Regards, Frank Ohidy, Director, NSS-CDS.

Why not have an additional membership fee for those people that want the printed version that would cover the actual cost. That way we could use our membership fees for cave conservation. Members that don't want the printed version can view it online. Seems like a win win to me.

[Slüdge]

Why not have an additional membership fee for those people that want the printed version that would cover the actual cost.

The problem lies with fixed cost/variable cost. As an extreme example, just say it costs $1,000 to set up the presses and a nickel a copy. Two hundred copies would cost $5.05 a copy. But if only thirty people wanted hard copies, they would cost $33.67 each.

[gsulliva]

The problem lies with fixed cost/variable cost. As an extreme example, just say it costs $1,000 to set up the presses and a nickel a copy. Two hundred copies would cost $5.05 a copy. But if only thirty people wanted hard copies, they would cost $33.67 each.

Sounds perfect to me as the cost goes up people will simple want to access the online version and all the money can be used for the caves and not losing money for the CDS.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

..or the CDS loses money if people ditch because they no longer have a printed UWS copy?

[jj1987]

Sounds perfect to me as the cost goes up people will simple want to access the online version and all the money can be used for the caves and not losing money for the CDS.

The CDS buying another cave right now is about as realistic as a wet dream with Miranda Kerr.

[DeepSea]

CDS is down to 830 members now. Last I heard the NACD was around 1200. Continuing the same practices as before will only solidify the fact that the CDS will continue to lose members. There isn;t much being done on the cave conservation front (that I am aware of). It would be nice it the Treasurer's report was posted in the UWS or online.

[DeepSea]

I didn't start this thread to rehash the printed/non printed version of UWS. Rather it was to compliment Beth, and those involved.

Since there are some discussion points and I feel the CDS is, as intended, a good and need organization. I would like to ask a couple of questions:

If you are a member, why did you join (renew) the CDS?

If you are not a member, what would convince you to join?

[harmstrong]

If you are not a member, what would convince you to join?
The organization needs to make up it's mind whether it is going to be a conservation group or a training agency. I don't have a problem with the organization going in either direction, and there is some room for compromise between the two, but in the last 10 years it has appeared that the CDS is simply a money-making venture for the instructors, particularly for some of the past training directors.

When the CDS starts supporting Cave Divers (a la some of the climbing organizations) as opposed to the cave diving instructors I will consider rejoining. As long as the status quo remains, not a snowball's chance.

[Slüdge]

When the CDS starts supporting Cave Divers (a la some of the climbing organizations) as opposed to the cave diving instructors I will consider rejoining. As long as the status quo remains, not a snowball's chance.

Those were my feelings exactly when my membership expired several years ago. But this past spring things started looking up (thanks in no small part to a few members shaking the tree), so I am a card-carrying member again!

[CaveBuddy95]

As a "trained by NSSCDS instructor" (got IANTD card better to work) I feel concerned, a bit, by the future of this pioneering agency. It is important to keep records of how things evolved and how we got where we are! (i.e: Accident Analysis ordered in 1977 by NSSCDS)
The thing is too many politics are ruining the initial motive of such an organisation.
For example, here in Mexico, the feeling I have is apart the fact that we are all doing the same thing, cave diving, something is missing. There is no warm familly like feeling, no unification behind a representative body, no workshop or social stuff. Not that I want people to hold my hand and stuff (weirdo!) but it's nice to share the passion and meet people... We say hello at the car park but that's it... :(
So I'm not surprised if you in Florida have a declining number of members.

[MORGAN]

If you are a member, why did you join (renew) the CDS?

I'm a member of the NSS/CDS, the NACD, and the NFSA. I've been a member of the first two since I started cave diving in 2005, and of the NFSA since shortly after it became the NFSA. (I wasn't a member of its predecessor, the Peacock Springs CSO.) I was a member of the NSS for quite a few years before I started cave diving.

I belong to these organizations because I support their missions: conservation, training, and public education. I don't think that my membership means that I necessarily approve of everything they do, or of the way every dollar is spent. But I think that overall they do a good job, and my dues are being put to good use. As a cave diver, I feel it's worth the money I spend to support organizations that conserve caves, educate the public about caves and conservation, and teach people to dive in them safely.

As far as the NSS/CDS specifically, I think that conservation should come first, and that the organization should be run for the benefit of the caves, the members, and the instructors, in that order. And I like the printed UWS! It is great, and has gotten better and better over the past five years.

Mike

[gsulliva]

..or the CDS loses money if people ditch because they no longer have a printed UWS copy?

Actually they would save money since UWS loses money.

The comment that people are members because of UWS is silly. If anything people join because of access to COW. More caves under CDS control means more memberships.

[DeepSea]

Actually they would save money since UWS loses money.

How exactly does UWS "lose" money?

[DeepSea]

If anything people join because of access to COW. More caves under CDS control means more memberships.

Since membership is down...I think your theory really is in question...How many dives have been made in the following recently? Cow? Alachua? School Sink? Falmouth?

Let's compare that to how many have been made at Peacock, Ginnie, etc. Many people will gladly pay to dive Peacock and Ginnie. However, I don't see the same beating down the doors to join the CDS.

The questions were:

If you are a member, why did you join (renew) the CDS?

If you are not a member, what would convince you to join?

Do you have an answer? I believe your name is Gareth, please correct me if I am wrong. I searched the NSS membership for a Gareth and there are two. However, none are in Florida. There was a Bob "Red" Sullivan, with a affiliation with the CDS but again, no Gareth. So why WOULD you join the CDS? Just to dive Cow?

[TONY CHANEY]

So why WOULD you join the CDS? Just to dive Cow?
Why not? I did as well as several others. I do think I should add that I like the money being used for conservation and upgrades to dive sites. I also loved the printed UWS. There were so many times that we were just sitting around the cabin or trailer checking out the old copies and talking about them. But I would pay just to dive COW and a few other caves.

[DeepSea]

Why not? I did as well as several others. I do think I should add that I like the money being used for conservation and upgrades to dive sites. I also loved the printed UWS. There were so many times that we were just sitting around the cabin or trailer checking out the old copies and talking about them. But I would pay just to dive COW and a few other caves.

Those seem to be the top reasons...diving Cow and reading UWS.

I hope everyone is reading my tone correctly. I AM a CDS member and want others to join. I just think the BOD needs to hear from customers (the CDS Is a business after all) what the customer wants or needs in order to buy.

[Rubis]

I joined the NSS-CDS to dive Cow. I continued to join to support the organization for the other properties.
The truth is there is too much negativity around the NSS-CDS and too much controversy.
I think the NACD is currently more successful because there is no negativity around it and NACD events are fun.
Maybe if there was less gloom, attacks and cohesion and more fun, people would be happy to join

[Jim Wyatt]

The treasurer talked about how and why the UWS loses money at the last BoD meeting. The way UWS loses money is simple. It costs X to print and mail out the magazine. Revenue for advertising is far below these two costs, $6440 below as of June 30, 2010 for the year.

Jim Womble's printing company prints the magazine at a great deal to the CDS and no where near retail. He does it at or very near his cost. Jim Womble is a long time member of the NSS-CDS and is currently secretary for the NFSA. The equation for losing money tracked strictly by accounting for funds is very simple.

Clearly the esoteric value of UWS is greater to some than to others, and this value cannot be quantified. Some feel the magazine should be printed in spite of the fact it has lost over $6000.00 in this fiscal/calendar year. Some feel it should be a be a business decision in that if it loses money it should stop. Others think the magazine should continue regardless, and that the esoteric value gained by us all having a nice magazine to read and to show off trumps the $6400 loss. There will never be agreement on this issue. I love the magazine & I hate to see the CDS losing what will amount to almost $10,000.00 this year by printing & mailing it.

[Cindy]

The treasurer talked about how and why the UWS loses money at the last BoD meeting. The way UWS loses money is simple. It costs X to print and mail out the magazine. Revenue for advertising is far below these two costs, $6440 below as of June 30, 2010 for the year.

Jim Womble's printing company prints the magazine at a great deal to the CDS and no where near retail. He does it at or very near his cost. Jim Womble is a long time member of the NSS-CDS and is currently secretary for the NFSA. The equation for losing money tracked strictly by accounting for funds is very simple.

Clearly the esoteric value of UWS is greater to some than to others, and this value cannot be quantified. Some feel the magazine should be printed in spite of the fact it has lost over $6000.00 in this fiscal/calendar year. Some feel it should be a be a business decision in that if it loses money it should stop. Others think the magazine should continue regardless, and that the esoteric value gained by us all having a nice magazine to read and to show off trumps the $6400 loss. There will never be agreement on this issue. I love the magazine & I hate to see the CDS losing what will amount to almost $10,000.00 this year by printing & mailing it.

I sent several ideas on how the UWS can make money in a letter to the BOD and only one board member replied. I'll redirect one here. 1. Make it a requirement that every instructor participate in the UWS in some way, either an ad, articles or financial donation. Another idea would be to have an outside group take on the advertising for the magazine. Overlooking hotels, eating places, local dive shops has been a mistake we all have been making.
You don't LOSE $6000 a year. The UWS is and continues to be the best advertising and outreach venue the CDS has. It is given out at functions, sent to officials from the State to the Water management BOD. Believe me, out of sight is out of mind. You are also dealing with the reality of competitive market, as long as the other agencies produce a magazine by not producing one you are admitting to failure. Placing the magazine entirely on the internet may save money but again, no outreach, admission of poor financial status, no issue for collectors, no place for current techniques to be studied. There are so many things the UWS could be used for this is has been failing in because in my opinion lack of imagination and poor support of the BOD and the instructors.

[TONY CHANEY]

So, since we are now saving a lot of money without the hard copy of UWS, has the membership cost decreased?

[Rich]

So, since we are now saving a lot of money without the hard copy of UWS, has the membership cost decreased?

Tony, they're still making the hard copy and long may it last! If you're in the area stop by CEE for a free copy, we're a CDS Business affiliate and we have a ton of back issues for free also.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[gasdiver]

What about a compromise? Use a lower cost method of printing such as news print instead of high gloss paper. The full color photo's are great, but I would go to a web link to look at the full color photos if the news print photo was interesting.

[TONY CHANEY]

Tony, they're still making the hard copy and long may it last! If you're in the area stop by CEE for a free copy, we're a CDS Business affiliate and we have a ton of back issues for free also.....

Safe diving,

Rich Sorry but I just checked my membership and it has expired. It expired at about the same time as all the talk about ending the hard copy. I really did not add to or address the battle already started over hard or computer copy. So, that leaves me with a new question. Why give away free copies, to include "a ton" of back issues when we, as a group, could sell them for as low as a buck? I would pay that or even more to aid it keeping it going.

[DeepSea]

The treasurer talked about how and why the UWS loses money at the last BoD meeting. The way UWS loses money is simple. It costs X to print and mail out the magazine. Revenue for advertising is far below these two costs, $6440 below as of June 30, 2010 for the year.

Jim in many ways this is not a loss but cost of goods sold (COGs)....I appreciate you bringing out some numbers for everyone to see. I think it helps others understand the state of the Section.

[Shadowjack]

Jim W,

Is there a way we could have a ballpark figure for Members to Magazine ratio?
Right now I think the numbers are:
850 current members + current adds = -$6000 for the UWS.

I don’t know or need to know the percentage of what my membership goes to but it would help to have a goal of members to keep UWS. I know this number would change say if 200 people decided to place adds.

If it was 1100 members+ current adds = BREAK EVEN for the UWS ?
Or
1100 members + 200 new adds = Full color ADM quality type UWS ?

Just how many members does it need to keep UWS?

Does the CDS need to have a membership drive to get the last XXX numbers of members to join to keep things running?

I have a really NASTY idea to keep membership up and going. Since everyone says the CDS is all about the instructors, have them required to meet a quota of new members or renews per year to keep their instructor status- ( 77 listed on the CDS website ) so if each instructor had 12 people renew or new sign up under their name they keep their status. That would be 1 new or 1 renew per month. That would give the CDS 924 members per year ( not counting the multi year or life members ). How hard would it be to have 1 person per month?

Eric Deister

[Slüdge]

How hard would it be to have 1 person per month?

As easy as that sounds, it's not realistic. Asking each instructor to get four new members a year sounds more like it.

My instructor hounded us all the time to join, and to attend the annual workshops whenever possible.

[Half-Fast]

Jim W,


Since everyone says the CDS is all about the instructors, have them required to meet a quota of new members or renews per year to keep their instructor status- ( 77 listed on the CDS website ) so if each instructor had 12 people renew or new sign up under their name they keep their status.

Eric Deister

I've been away from cave diving for a while, so maybe philosophies have changed. Back in the day, the philosophy regarding training was that it wasn't our purpose to recruit people into cave diving; rather, we wanted to intercept those who were going to dive in caves, make them aware of the dangers, and make training available to them.

Maybe that's no longer the cave community's attitude. But if it is, laying a new member quota on instructors will encourage active recruiting of new cave divers, which might not be such a great thing.

And frankly, trying to make instructors recruit new CDS members without addressing changes that might make membership more beneficial to these new divers, won't work anyway.

Before we lay this on the instructors, it seems to me it would be better to try to enlarge the membership roles from those who are already active cave divers but haven't joined, or have left, the CDS. There are lots of cave divers out there who don't belong to the section. Many have given up in disgust over the petty politics and squabbles that seem to have plagued the organization forever.

[Slüdge]

We're talking about recruiting new members from those taking cave diving classes, not from the general public.

[Half-Fast]

Yes, I understand, but giving the instructors a quota as a number, rather than as a % of students they happen to teach, may force them to teach more and more students to have enough of a pool to meet their "new CDS members" quota.

Which will lead to active recruiting. Bad idea.

[Slüdge]

Which will lead to active recruiting. Bad idea.

I'm with you on recruiting - which is why I don't like to see it when instructors depend on teaching to pay the bills.

But I don't think this should be "you need to sign up this many new CDS members." More like "Don't forget to encourage ALL of your students to join the CDS."

[Jim Wyatt]

Jim W,


Since everyone says the CDS is all about the instructors, have them required to meet a quota of new members or renews per year to keep their instructor status-
Eric Deister

I think most instructors encourage students to join the CDS. I encourage mine to join. Having a quota would require someone to track it...

[d_berman]

I was a dry caver prior to relatively recently diving and becoming a CDS member. Planning to continue both realms of membership knees and pocket book withstanding. :-)

I too love the special glossy magazine but can easily understand it as being a potential burden.

Would there be an opportunity to "merge" publications with the monthly NSS magazine and then do less frequently published special CDS special ? All said- - Kudos to those dedicating their time and effort !

Dave

[Half-Fast]

More like "Don't forget to encourage ALL of your students to join the CDS."

No problem at all with that. What Eric suggested, though, and what I was responding to, was a hard quota, such as requiring each instructor to sign up 12 new members per year to keep their instructor status.

Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I think all this would do is lead to instructors switching agencies. Net result would be a loss of members, not a gain.

OTOH, consider this: Suppose instructors charged, say, $15 more per student and used the money to pay for a "free" (HA!) 6 month trial CDS membership for the student (shhhhh! We don't have to tell the students they're really paying for it). After being a member for 6 months and receiving a couple of copies of UWS, they get a renewal notice for the next year. I'd bet quite a few would renew.

[Shadowjack]

Please reread my post----- That would be 1 new or 1 renew per month.

I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who CURRENTLY CAVE DIVE and have said they're not members or just haven't renewed. As for getting new members to SUPPORT caves would it be bad to have someone who doesn't dive a member? "Sorry Uncle Dan, you can't join and support caving diving since you don't dive" ??

Question: do you have to be a member of the NSS/CDS to take a class and get the card?

I have another idea for NACD/GUE/CDS/NFSA. With the long weekend coming up how about some head counts / pole at the popular dive spots: What is your dive level? what organizations do you belong to? how much diving to you do, what would you like see happen with..... blah blah.

Post that data for everyone to see: So instructors can see there's a training gap between xxxx, Org X can see it's missing alot of members here, all can see that people want more free refresher classes....blah blah.....

Eric Deister

Ok, that's 2 post in 1 day... I'm done for the next 2 months.