Dive Computer research

[curtschu]

It is time to upgrade my computer and would like some input from the group. I am contemplating getting either a VR3 or a Ni Tek he.
Not because I currently dive trimix but since the difference in cost is not that sigificant and I plan to start in the future and capibility is so much more. Is there other ideas I'm not seeing?

[FW]

Not because I currently dive trimix but since the difference in cost is not that sigificant and I plan to start in the future and capibility is so much more. Is there other ideas I'm not seeing?

Check out: http://www.hs-eng.com/

Also "Resources" above, under "Gear" then "Computers" there is a comparison chart.

[ARY]

Check out: http://www.hs-eng.com/
BTW they are from St.Augustine FL now, and computer "brain" is upgradeable as well as VR3.

Check out the following link (plenty of research for you, read at least the first three pages!):

http://cavediver.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=223

Let me know if you want a demo of the Hydrospace Explorer, VR3 and the NiTek HE.

[Genesis]

My complaint with all of the "high end" computers is that none really deliver on the promise.

What promise? The promise of obsolescence protection.

The Nitek and Explorer both use hard-segmented displays. That's so.... 70s. A dot matrix display is not much more expensive, really, and the controllers for them are trivially inexpensive nowdays.

The VR3 solves that problem, but even it cannot REALLY be updated by you. You still have to send it back.

With the VR3 this is particularly galling, since it has IR capability and all three have flash. There is absolutely no reason on God's Green Earth why one should not be able to buy a device in this class and then update it as required using their computer.

Finally, its so passe' to have a computer that is destroyed if the battery is inserted the wrong way. HS's warns of this possibility.

A diode, which prevents this from happening, costs less than a quarter.

One has to wonder if that sort of omission in the circuit of these devices is intentional.

We're talking about machines here that cost more than a kilobuck, when I can buy an entire PC for that kind of money.

Let's get real and demand REAL investment protection and solid engineering.

[normblitch]

My complaint with all of the "high end" computers is that none really deliver on the promise.

What promise? The promise of obsolescence protection.

The Nitek and Explorer both use hard-segmented displays. That's so.... 70s. A dot matrix display is not much more expensive, really, and the controllers for them are trivially inexpensive nowdays.

The VR3 solves that problem, but even it cannot REALLY be updated by you. You still have to send it back.

With the VR3 this is particularly galling, since it has IR capability and all three have flash. There is absolutely no reason on God's Green Earth why one should not be able to buy a device in this class and then update it as required using their computer.

Finally, its so passe' to have a computer that is destroyed if the battery is inserted the wrong way. HS's warns of this possibility.

A diode, which prevents this from happening, costs less than a quarter.

One has to wonder if that sort of omission in the circuit of these devices is intentional.

We're talking about machines here that cost more than a kilobuck, when I can buy an entire PC for that kind of money.

Let's get real and demand REAL investment protection and solid engineering.

Until now, I hadn't considered this...

While in a Consumer niche, I bought a Logitec Harmony universal remote about 2 months ago for the Home Theater...although it has many dedicated buttons, many features are accessed from buttons pointing to various icons on an LCD screen (allowing for future upgrade)...the setup, normally a disturbing hour or two of inputting info manually, is replaced by hooking the remote to your XPTR via supplied USB cable, logging on to the Harmony site, clicking equipment used and control needs...it then hums while the website d/l's the data AND checks automatically for firmware/software updates...

I don't know if it (the remote) is reverse polarity protected, but as a solder-head, I can confirm Karl's comment re the diode...this feature has been around as long as the '70's...

I won't comment re the Motives of the Designers and Builders, but IMHO it DOES show a lack of thorough product Design...

73 de Norm KE4GAH

[ARY]

We're talking about machines here that cost more than a kilobuck, when I can buy an entire PC for that kind of money.
Let's get real and demand REAL investment protection and solid engineering.
You are right on that. This reminds me my General Electric microwave for $200. When electricity blinks this child of idiot-engineers is not just unkeeping settings (problem resolved with one extra capacitor) but exposes the stupidity of its design: the very first thing after blackout microwave wants to know is current day, month, year, hour, minute, AM or PM. Why should i set up all that sh$t if i just wanted to warm up my sandvich? And light is blinking in our building almost every single day! Living overseas i had Korean made $40 microwave for 10 years with dial semi-mechanical timer on it and i was totally happy with it.

As on HS Explorer i would hope they will not stop in removing bugs. So personally for me this locally made upgradeable device looks very attractive (should i have spare kilobuck for it).

[BillBowden]

I've used the VR3 and the Nitek He. The He is much more intuitive, easier to learn and has excellent support from DR. I don't know when you'd use 7 gases on a single dive by the He will let you do it. Using all 7 gases you can trick it into modeling your rebreather settings. Biggest downside for the deep stuff is it doesn't give you credit for deep stops. For open circuit it's my favorite computer. Price is good, and there are some kicking around used at an even better price.

I mostly use the VR3 now. Primarily as a backup to the on-board computer on my rebreather. The thing is so capable that there is a significant learning curve. The manual is not the best. So it helps if you've got someone to show you how to beat it into submission. If you want something that is upgradeable to 10 user defined gases, nitrox, trimix, rebreather (and bail out) capable I'd recommend the VR3. User changeable "AA" battery is a plus.

[crazyduck]

I see your frustrations and understand it.

I talked to a series of folks about this and the product liability is the real issue with the changes we are wanting.

Most manufactures I have talked to have a baseline of what they consider a liability with the general public.

The only way you are getting around this is to make your own. Not like I have not thought about it. (Palm pilot, case, depth sensor..yada,yada, yada.)

Really when you look at what we have and the ability to cut tables with laptops what we have is getting better all the time.

What I am hoping is for a manufacture will take a product that is existing and perhaps allow divers such as us the ability to come in and customize their units.
Basically we are talking about customized dive computers.
HS Engineering is probably the best suited for a process like this but they would have to see something in return. Really you are talking metal cases, LCD screens with programming, and then decompression setup.

There is an alterative that has not been discussed- Hammer Head rebreather controller has a dive computer built into the wrist unit. You can use the unit as… a straight dive computer when plug the port for the rebreather. While this is far from perfect, it could be a hell of a nitch market. http://www.rebreather.us/Hammerhead/Hammerhead.htm

Just a thought- Hammerhead is about to go through a revision, there a lots… of these units being replaced! Hummm, what are they going to do with all of the old units?!!!

Andrew

[BobK]

Is the Hammerhead's dive computer any better than the VR3 or He ?

Is the Hammerhead's dive computer any better than the VR3 or He ?
The Hammerhead was designed to control a CCR (Closed Circuit Rebreather) and it costs more than twice as much ($2,995.00, plus shipping) as the other trimix computers. It comes with a rebreather head and two handsets, one primary and a secondary. The primary has a built in trimix computer, which gets input from the three oxygen sensors, and a pressure sensor, to calculate and display decompression information.

The stand alone computer functionality was designed for the ability to use it on an open circuit dive, because it contains your prior decompression information. It can be used as a bailout computer if you have a problem with your CCR.

The hammerhead's trimix computer currently uses Buhlmann with Gradient Factors for it's decompression model. It allows you to set the high and low settings for the Gradient Factor model, so you can tweak your decompression model. Kevin J. is planning on implementing other deco algorithms in the future in order to give users of the Hammerhead® a wide choice of decompression profiles.

The Hammerhead eats batteries very quickly! It not only has to calculate decompression, it also has to control a solenoid to inject oxygen. Another factor to consider is the foot print. It's bigger than the other computers.

If you own a CCR, then a Hammerhead is an option. If not, get a VR3, HydroSpace Explorer or a NiTek He.

[DeepSea]

I use a VR3 almost every week. At first I thought it would be hard to learn. However, I did not find that to be the case. It tells you what post (or both) to push for a function and whether it is a short push or a long push. I can't see where it can get any easier. However, if you do not dive very often I can see where you might forget where something is (e.g., temperature graph, O2 analyzer, etc).

My buddy got his upgraded to a color screen. It is easier to read and uses the unused pixels on the border of the LCD so you end up with significant real estate gains. I know VR3 is working on the ability to upgrade it via a web connection (etc.) so they are listening to their customers and did think the deisgn out (flash).

I did look long and hard at the HSE before I bought my VR3 but just liked the usabilty of the VR3 better. For comparison I have found that the VR3 deco profiles closely match that of V-Planner with a conservative setting of +2. This is total runtime not stops.

Just my .02¢

[jammer]

Go with the V-R3

Just a thought- Hammerhead is about to go through a revision, there a lots… of these units being replaced! Hummm, what are they going to do with all of the old units?!!!
Kevin J. upgrades the electronics (adds things to the circuit board). The Rev. C design will include metal housings for the handsets.

[crazyduck]

Just a thought- Hammerhead is about to go through a revision, there a lots… of these units being replaced! Hummm, what are they going to do with all of the old units?!!!
Kevin J. upgrades the electronics (adds things to the circuit board). The Rev. C design will include metal housings for the handsets.

Sorry for any confusion. .... :roll:

With the present value of the Pound Sterling to the Dollar (Ouch 1.85 to the Pound) you about doubling the price of English products.
Plus, is there a repair location in the US? Last I hear it was a trip to the UK and then to Hong Kong. (Yeow!)

HS is US product, and Gene is in Florida.
To all accouts I have heard he is very easy to work with and an outstanding company. Plus, it is the only full blown RGBM profile that I know of.

Diverite is an excellent product and for all accounts is great. I have sold about three of the HE models when I was helping out at a dive shop (no longer.) Shame they discontinued the NitekIII.
THe HE really needs a new screen after the release of the seiko product- Nitek Duo but that is just my opinion.

Andrew

[curtschu]

Question, Duck, you talked about the price with the pound to dollar rate, but the HS is at least $100 bucks more from all the info I have found.
I would love to buy American but come on lets see a better price. I don't think I'll be getting a Rebreather any time soon so that capability really is not a factor. TriMix is Definitely on the horizon.

With the present value of the Pound Sterling to the Dollar (Ouch 1.85 to the Pound) you about doubling the price of English products. Plus, is there a repair location in the US? Last I hear it was a trip to the UK and then to Hong Kong. (Yeow!)
I don't know about a repair location for the VR3 in the US. The external oxygen sensor port reading isn't working right on my VR3, so it needs to go back to the UK (I think they get fixed in the UK). It jumps to very high (unrealistic values) with and without an external oxygen sensor connected. The last problem / upgrade cost me about $400. The VR3 is an excellent trimix computer. It's based upon ProPlanner, but a VPM model should be released in the summer.


HS is US product, and Gene is in Florida.
To all accouts I have heard he is very easy to work with and an outstanding company. Plus, it is the only full blown RGBM profile that I know of.
Andrew
Gene M. lives in Saint Augustine, Florida. He services the HS Explorers in his workshop at his house. I had a problem with a capacitor on my older HS Explorer. He fixed it, for free, right in front of me at his house. He knows his stuff. I have since upgraded my HS Explorer to the latest model with an external oxygen sensor port.

I think the best way to evaluate these computers is to see them in person. It's nice to be able to push the buttons, to see how they work. I put some links to the simulators and manuals in the Blog. Check out the manuals to see how to operate the simulators.

[Jim Wyatt]

. I don't know when you'd use 7 gases on a single dive

Probably never. But when I dive with buddies who use different deco mixes than me I program their mixes into slots 4 & 5 and 6 & 7 -- That way if I need their gas for deco its programmed in already.

[normblitch]

Go with the V-R3

Jammer,

Next time I see you at Ginnie, how about giving me a show on the VR...

Norm