Roberta Swicegood

[bullfrog]

Any oldtimers out there who helped recover or knew Roberta? She died in a cave up here in Pa. called tytoona in the mid 80's. Does anyone know what happened?

[Jay]

From other sources: It appears she silted out, ripped her dry suit and could not recover.

[FW]

Yes, the water is cold up there, so hypothermia is a big issue. It makes it difficult to deal with what should be simple problems, like a siltout.

[kenc]

I am from the Altoona area and was some what involved in the incident. I have a copy of the accident report here some where. I was by the site for an evening or two when the search was going on. If you need any more info I might be able to find the report.

Ken

[Squirrel Girl]

I heard a guy on the recovery say it was a nasty place to be. Tight, jagged. :-(

[cavediver27]

About 10 years ago I dived a virgin cave system that is just a few miles from Tytoona. It required 2 repels and crawling through tight passage loaded down with dive gear (among other challenges). The great part was being in virgin cave. That was awesome.

The bad parts were cold water, very limited visibility, line traps everywhere, mud and silt and a total of 12 hours of extreme effort for a 1 hour dive. Not for the faint of heart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FW]

I am from the Altoona area and was some what involved in the incident. I have a copy of the accident report here some where. I was by the site for an evening or two when the search was going on. If you need any more info I might be able to find the report.

Ken
I would like a copy too.

[kenc]

Forrest,
Let me know when you'll be around High Springs or PM me a fax number.It is 8 pages.

Ken

[FW]

Forrest,
Let me know when you'll be around High Springs or PM me a fax number.It is 8 pages.

Ken
Are you going to the CDF social this weekend?

[kenc]

I'll be out of town. Alexv is going to email you a copy.

Ken

[FW]

I have my copy now. If anyone else is interested, PM me with an email address, and I will forward it.

[Tegg]

Why is there a difference in how "good" dive accident reports were "back in the day" and today?

I have not seen a decent dive accident report in a long time... even though there have been plenty of accidents/deaths.

[OFG-1]

Why is there a difference in how "good" dive accident reports were "back in the day" and today?

I have not seen a decent dive accident report in a long time... even though there have been plenty of accidents/deaths.

Why bother to write one? All you have to do is read the Accident Analysis sections here and at TDS to become an expert.

[Tegg]

Why bother to write one? All you have to do is read the Accident Analysis sections here and at TDS to become an expert.

Yea, that's all we really need. There is nothing to learn from the last 10 deaths or so anyways... They all made stupid mistakes... according to the experts online...

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I guess we could just blame everything on medicals?

[jj1987]

I guess we could just blame everything on medicals?
#1 Rule of accident analysis is to try and blame it on medical issues.

#2 rule is if #1 isn't possible, try to blame it on training (Example- divers diving in a full cave + 100 dives system who die due to not being able to manage their valves are diving beyond their training, even though the skill that was the issue, was taught in basic cave-- or should have been).

#3, and final rule, is to tell everyone to wait for the official report out of respect, and then not release it.

[bullfrog]

Please e-mail me a copy too.

[FW]

I am amazed how much interest there is in this.

[Scott]

I am amazed how much interest there is in this.

Thank you, Just finished reading the one you sent me earlier. Living in PA for a little while, I knew of the systems mentioned in the report, although I never visited them.

Hope fully people can use this as a learning/teaching tool.

Scott

[HeloDriver]

Fortunately for us unenlightened we have fellas like you superbugman and jj1987 to give us clarity. Thank you.

[DeepSea]

Joe,

I disagree with your assumed statements about the effectiveness of recent IUCRR reports. I am biased since I was involved in the recovery of the divers at Waynes World a couple of years ago. We worked very hard to produce a valuabel report that could be read and understood leading to analysis.

However, I do agree that some recent events (> 2008 ) have selectively not been submitted to the IUCRR for dissemination for numerous reasons.

Sent from my Htcclay's Superfly G1 using Tapatalk

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Fortunately for us unenlightened we have fellas like you superbugman and jj1987 to give us clarity. Thank you.

You welcome, always happy to 'help'. Its what I'm here for, and I'm glad you've found it incredibly usefull. Surely the world is clearer now, than ever before.

[FW]

Let's try to stay on topic....

[Jay]

Thanks Forrest! That is more detail then the stuff I read years ago.
I forgot the sump was that deep. 51 degrees, 70-100 foot depth, rip in drysuit, heavy gloves, breathing air (I assume).
Yikes!! Not many people could survive that.

[FW]

I also found it interesting that this might have been the first accident involving a trained cave diver.

[Webmaster]

Thanks Forrest! That is more detail then the stuff I read years ago.
I forgot the sump was that deep. 51 degrees, 70-100 foot depth, rip in drysuit, heavy gloves, breathing air (I assume).
Yikes!! Not many people could survive that.

When folks survive something something going wrong is not usually when you hear about it.

[Cindy]

I have my copy now. If anyone else is interested, PM me with an email address, and I will forward it.

Send me one please Forrest. cindyb3007@yahoo.com Thank you, Don't worry I won't get in the guess how old Forrest is contest. You already told me. :D

[Webmaster]

Look on the 2nd page of posts, he put up a link to the document.

[FFDiver221]

All of the facts was very interesting and one thing really caught my attention and that was the line. It was mention of using knots to determine distance and direction. We use this system on our search ropes becuase visibilty in a fire is zero. While my future lures me to become a cave diver and I read posts to learn facts and real world experiences of new and experienced cave divers. One thing I have wondered and wondered again after reading this and I know it could ignite a firestorm, no pun intended. I know it would be a small entanglement hazard but in my mind should be easy to recitify. If a diver used a short piece of line that was attached with a caribiner to a d ring and another caribiner attached to a permanent guide would help prevent a diver from loosing the line. It could be moved from section to section at tie off points and if it got entanged the last resort would be to just take it off at the d ring. Just an idea and not meant in any way to question traning methods!!! we use a similiar system when searching large structures to prevent using the line and in a building there exists many entanglement hazards and we train to deal with it. We do this by training in a safe environment and having no visibilty simulated with mask blanks in our scba. We take several layers of window tinting together and they are cut to fit our scba masks. This makes it very easy to have no visibilty and can be changed to simulate various degrees based on the amount of layers installed. It works for fire however not for sure in a cave, just wondering. One thing I have pushed and trust me it was a battle to get people to look at their air in thirds. People look at from the perspective of staying in a building until the low air alarm went off and it is dangerous. If it takes three fourths of your air to get in then one fourth will not get a person out. More are looking it to be a safer way to do fire atacks and searches. Hope I dont offend anyone as it is not intended to. Any feedback would be appreciated!!!!

[Randy Thornton]

All of the facts was very interesting and one thing really caught my attention and that was the line. It was mention of using knots to determine distance and direction. We use this system on our search ropes becuase visibilty in a fire is zero. While my future lures me to become a cave diver and I read posts to learn facts and real world experiences of new and experienced cave divers. One thing I have wondered and wondered again after reading this and I know it could ignite a firestorm, no pun intended. I know it would be a small entanglement hazard but in my mind should be easy to recitify. If a diver used a short piece of line that was attached with a caribiner to a d ring and another caribiner attached to a permanent guide would help prevent a diver from loosing the line. It could be moved from section to section at tie off points and if it got entanged the last resort would be to just take it off at the d ring. Just an idea and not meant in any way to question traning methods!!! we use a similiar system when searching large structures to prevent using the line and in a building there exists many entanglement hazards and we train to deal with it. We do this by training in a safe environment and having no visibilty simulated with mask blanks in our scba. We take several layers of window tinting together and they are cut to fit our scba masks. This makes it very easy to have no visibilty and can be changed to simulate various degrees based on the amount of layers installed. It works for fire however not for sure in a cave, just wondering. One thing I have pushed and trust me it was a battle to get people to look at their air in thirds. People look at from the perspective of staying in a building until the low air alarm went off and it is dangerous. If it takes three fourths of your air to get in then one fourth will not get a person out. More are looking it to be a safer way to do fire atacks and searches. Hope I dont offend anyone as it is not intended to. Any feedback would be appreciated!!!!

Dear FFDiver221, welcome to the forum. I've heard other people suggest similar concepts of hooking off to the line in one way or another, but I think the bottom line is that it would probably be way too restrictive and way too much work to clip on and off. As cave divers we will "OK" the line with our fingers if we get in a silt out situation, which tends to work quite well. It gives us the ability to move quite quickly, move around obstructions, and doesn't become an entanglement hazard in and of itself like a carabiner does.

I think you will appreciate the concept once you get in your cave class and experience the low viz drills in person!

Hope you enjoy your journey to become a cave diver!

Regards,
Randy

[ynot]

All of the facts was very interesting and one thing really caught my attention and that was the line. It was mention of using knots to determine distance and direction. We use this system on our search ropes becuase visibilty in a fire is zero. While my future lures me to become a cave diver and I read posts to learn facts and real world experiences of new and experienced cave divers. One thing I have wondered and wondered again after reading this and I know it could ignite a firestorm, no pun intended. I know it would be a small entanglement hazard but in my mind should be easy to recitify. If a diver used a short piece of line that was attached with a caribiner to a d ring and another caribiner attached to a permanent guide would help prevent a diver from loosing the line. It could be moved from section to section at tie off points and if it got entanged the last resort would be to just take it off at the d ring. Just an idea and not meant in any way to question traning methods!!! we use a similiar system when searching large structures to prevent using the line and in a building there exists many entanglement hazards and we train to deal with it. We do this by training in a safe environment and having no visibilty simulated with mask blanks in our scba. We take several layers of window tinting together and they are cut to fit our scba masks. This makes it very easy to have no visibilty and can be changed to simulate various degrees based on the amount of layers installed. It works for fire however not for sure in a cave, just wondering. One thing I have pushed and trust me it was a battle to get people to look at their air in thirds. People look at from the perspective of staying in a building until the low air alarm went off and it is dangerous. If it takes three fourths of your air to get in then one fourth will not get a person out. More are looking it to be a safer way to do fire atacks and searches. Hope I dont offend anyone as it is not intended to. Any feedback would be appreciated!!!!


Dear FFDiver221, welcome to the forum. I've heard other people suggest similar concepts of hooking off to the line in one way or another, but I think the bottom line is that it would probably be way too restrictive and way too much work to clip on and off. As cave divers we will "OK" the line with our fingers if we get in a silt out situation, which tends to work quite well. It gives us the ability to move quite quickly, move around obstructions, and doesn't become an entanglement hazard in and of itself like a carabiner does.

I think you will appreciate the concept once you get in your cave class and experience the low viz drills in person!

Hope you enjoy your journey to become a cave diver!

Regards,
Randy

That system was originally adopted in Australia in the 1970s and 80s. We called the short lines "tethers" - one end looped around the wrist, the other with a clip to the line, they were only about 6" long. They gradually lost favour in the 90s and now no-one uses them

Tony

[FFDiver221]

That system was originally adopted in Australia in the 1970s and 80s. We called the short lines "tethers" - one end looped around the wrist, the other with a clip to the line, they were only about 6" long. They gradually lost favour in the 90s and now no-one uses them

Tony

Thanks for the feedback. Im familiar with the OK system of holding the line as we do the same thing depending on conditions. Was just wondering from the standpoint of low visibilty in a low flow cave and the possibilty of an extreme emergency and getting off the line if it would help. I think in places with high flow, low silt conditions it would be more pain than it is worth. I was just wondering it it would be a good tool to add to the tool box for an appropriate place and or conditions. I try to anaylze every contingency before I do anything even just doing a simple dive as any dive can kill a person. AT least I did not ignite a firestorm yet so maybe that is a good sign:clapper

David

[Randy Thornton]

Thanks for the feedback. Im familiar with the OK system of holding the line as we do the same thing depending on conditions. Was just wondering from the standpoint of low visibilty in a low flow cave and the possibilty of an extreme emergency and getting off the line if it would help. I think in places with high flow, low silt conditions it would be more pain than it is worth. I was just wondering it it would be a good tool to add to the tool box for an appropriate place and or conditions. I try to anaylze every contingency before I do anything even just doing a simple dive as any dive can kill a person. AT least I did not ignite a firestorm yet so maybe that is a good sign:clapper

David

Hi David,

I think clipping on a tether would present more downside than upside. OKing the line seems to work well for us in a multitude of situations, so I would think most people would be reluctant to tie themselves into anything. Entanglement is one of the big fears of cave divers everywhere. By the way, typically in a silt out situation, the entire cave is not mucked up. It's usually just a short segment of the cave where you have been mucking about! In a low flow cave, once you have swam back through that section, it will more often than not clear up again. In a high flow cave, if you just stay put for a minute, the flow will blow the bad viz past you and then you are usually good to go. Of course, there are no absolutes in this business, but a silt out in a section of the cave is usually not the end of the world. It's usually just a short segment of the cave or it passes fairly quickly!

Regards,
Randy

[Webmaster]

I've just done that once or twice before and effectively tethered myself to the line, but only when I was not moving and doing something that required a lot of attention in low vis. I can't even remember now why I did it then, but it worked ok and seemed like a good idea for that particular moment.

[FFDiver221]

I've just done that once or twice before and effectively tethered myself to the line, but only when I was not moving and doing something that required a lot of attention in low vis. I can't even remember now why I did it then, but it worked ok and seemed like a good idea for that particular moment.

That is sort of my thoughts is that it would not be useful all the time just in certain scenarios. We train in the fire service to deal with entanglements because in a structure that is burnt very bad there are a lot of wires and we even train in a tunnel that is about two feet square crisscrossed with electrical wires and work our way through this tunnel which is about 8 feet long and it is tough becuase they like for us to do it without cutting any wires. In the real world I keep three sets of cable cutters in my gear so even if I am pinned i still have a very good chance of getting a hand on at least one of them. The thoughts of being entangled and running out of air is a very large concern just as much as being burnt or being caught in a collapse. The only good thing is if a person gets trapped and we can reach them we can transfill air into another persons ait cylinder until we free them, so we have that safety margin.