Multistage and reg re-use

[ARY]

Is it OK to use one set of regulator to switch to on another stage bottle when doing long multi stage dives? Of cause it is nice to have reg on each stage cylinder ready to go but what if i'm too poor to buy fifth regulators set? When i switch first stage underwater and flush it how much damage i cause to the reg and what kind of problems i'm running into? What is post-dive reg maintenance protocol in such case of "wet switch"? Can somebody share an expert opinion?

[rchrds]

Is it OK to use one set of regulator to switch to on another stage bottle when doing long multi stage dives? Of cause it is nice to have reg on each stage cylinder ready to go but what if i'm too poor to buy fifth regulators set? When i switch first stage underwater and flush it how much damage i cause to the reg and what kind of problems i'm running into? What is post-dive reg maintenance protocol in such case of "wet switch"? Can somebody share an expert opinion?

I'm sure everyone else will tell you the same thing- If you cant afford that many stage regs, wait until you can. It's not the best idea to force a wet swap- If you had to do it, you would be better to plan to have to do it on your deco bottles- less happening there, and more time do deal with issues if something screws up- and you are closer to getting out.

As for post swap- sort of depends on the water you're in- brackish or black water you can anticipate having to rebuild the regs soon- probably within the next couple of months, as opposed to your regular cycle, if that isint earlier. The water tends to corrode the inlet filter and collect crap, which eventually breaks lose and gets sucked to the first stage seat- either scratching the piston or grooving the seat. Depending on what sort of first stage you have this can be less or more of a problem. Either way, it'll fail with the typical 1st stage creep, and 2nd freeflow.

I have so many regs that I dont work with a regular maintenance schedule- I usually dive them till they leak, then overhaul whichever part needs it. That means some get done every three months- some get done every two years.

The decision to wet swap will really depend on three things: If you really have to, if you can and do rebuild and maintain your own equipment, and what sort of 1st stage you have. If you have the sort of first stage where the 1st stage piston (or cone) is a machined part of the first stage, and not a replaceable part, I would not recommend it. If you can swap both the piston and seat from your first stages at a decent price, then I wouldnt worry about it.

If you dont do your own service, and anguish every time you talk to the service guy about the price, I wouldn't recommend it.

J

[ARY]

It's not the best idea to force a wet swap- If you had to do it, you would be better to plan to have to do it on your deco bottles- less happening there, and more time do deal with issues if something screws up- and you are closer to getting out.
Thanks for your explanation Jay! I wouldn't do wet swap of deco reg because in this case first stage might get contaminated and this is first stage that is supposed to work with hot gas (98% O2) that is why i really have only one travel reg set to play with.

[curtschu]

Not to put a knock on folks trying to sell used regs, but check your local dive store. I'll bet he has bunches of used regs that need service that he will sell you cheap. Great why to learn how to do your own service work.
If you have a great relationship maybe you can get him to look over your shoulder while you rebuild a couple..... Maybe ever do two for him one for you.... Be creative. Support your local dive shop.

[OutlawCaver]

Since I value my life without monetary bounds, the cost of an addtional regulator for staging at $400-$500 is infintesimally small.

[SLIM]

Remember, if you do a reg swap while diving and it is planed, what do you do in a emergency and you have to take the time to swap a reg to use the gas. Let me see if you can do it that quick when under a panik. If you are doing dives that requier that many stages then you SHOULD have the propper gear to do the dive. If you don't then the dive should not be done. Reg swapping underwater is for ememgerncy use only if there is a failure only. Lets say this, I don't know you and you don't know me. But if we were to meet up at a dive site and we plan a dive and you tell me that "oh I have to swap regs on this other stage when I go to it so it might take a second or two, can you help shine some light for me" I will right then tell you that we need to call the dive or plan a differant dive. Or if I had my extra gear I might loan it but I would still be wondering about diving with you.

Just my thoughts on swaping a reg underwater
SLIM

[Dwain]

I value my life... I use Apeks Regs ATX200 that I purchased from my local LDS. I paid top dollar for them in support of my LDS. Support the local guy what ever you do.

I paid close to $700 for each reg, it was well worth it, and I'll be purchasing another soon.

I would never wet swap unless I has a complete reg failure. But why would I swap... Never. That's why we gas manage. If the reg falls that means we end the dive, repair it and do another dive another day.

Nothing breathes like my APEKS, and I've tried many different names in the industry.

[ARY]

Well the question arose partially after looking at this picture: http://www.wraysbury.ws/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=16&pos=57

And then i started to think about people getting to Hinkle and beyond on stages. This is pure theoretical question of how would one build a bridge from several stage bottles, each time leaving them further in a cave. Of course scooter or pair of scooters would be more helpful. About Apex, my DR and DX4 with two Oceanic Delta-3 cost me less than $700 total. I 'm pretty much satisfied with its performance and reliability on a level i'm caving today.

[NitroxWarrior]

You serious? I have never switched out a second stage under water, I didnt know you even could! how is it possible I would not know this was possible! I didnt think you could get water into the hose and just blow it out... :? I'm feeling like a really old n00b

[Genesis]

You can not only switch a second stage underwater (if the nut is not tight so you can spin it off - turn OFF the post first!) you can even switch a FIRST underwater (again, turn OFF the post first!)

However, doing either floods the first stage. The effect of doing this depends on the reg. Some take it VERY badly, some not so badly, but all should be torn down immediately if you do this and gone through to get the water out of where it does not belong - whether its fresh or not.

I consider such a stunt an absolute last gasp effort to avoid dying. Regs aren't that expensive and there is a very real risk (especially with a diaphram reg) that it will take such a stunt VERY badly.

[Cindy]

I have had a buddy switch during a dive due to a regulator failure. It was a side mount dive and he was dealing with a new side mount diver as a buddy. (Me) It took place in a cave that was tight enough we couldn't really get out sharing air. Guess we hadn't really talked about how to switch tanks. He held his breath and was able to switch tanks with his remaining good reg. I was pretty much having a nervous breakdown watching him. (realisticly he may have been showing off just a little) I kept trying to get him to take one of my regs but he decided not to. Switching underwater can only be done on a few regs and requires that the reg be cleaned after. Not something you would either like to practice or do a regular basis or even watch. These days I either switch tanks which requires some practice or use my long hose that I keep on my tank. Don't even go there asking me why he had used the air out of one tank more than the other. Brrrr, bad mojo just talking about it! Not smart and not cool. Frankly I would rather solo dive than watch someone I care about drown. I dive a little smarter than that now. Cindy :{

[Moonfuzzy]

Well the question arose partially after looking at this picture: http://www.wraysbury.ws/index.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=16&pos=57


It looks like they are using one reg for each set of doubles attached to the diver - in a sense treating each set of doubles as a stage bottle. I don't think that the diver is moving regs around during the dive... there is no need. If he looses a reg he looses the set of doubles, but he has 5 or 6 sets attached and should have enough gas to get back home.

[FW]

Another big issue is time. It takes time to switch regs, and thus shortens the actual penetration distance. That was your main goal anyway, wasnt it :)

[Tegg]

ARY... if you have seen all the cave you can in one stage, time to either buy a second reg setup or a scooter... :)

I say go for the scooter... :wink:

[ARY]

I say go for the scooter... :wink:
Or two scooters, and 2 circuits Megladon with two VR3 controllers :-)

Thank you all people for sharing your thoughts. And two people offered me regulators, that was really nice of you guys, really. No, i'm not going to hide cylinders in caves from my wife. This was started as purely theoretical topic. However i carry regulator set on the right bottle H-valve of my sidemount cylinder just for that purpose: possible UW wet swap. I also practiced breathing from valve in A spring after my "stress from rescue" OW course although i'm not sure if i could swim like that in a cave. Just one more thing: when do wet swap one should watch that o-ring at the end of DIN, this thing easily flies down to silt.

[NitroxWarrior]

sheesh thats too many tanks, invest in a rebreather and a big scooter...

[rchrds]

Just one more thing: when do wet swap one should watch that o-ring at the end of DIN, this thing easily flies down to silt.

Just a note on this for everyone- over a number of years of dealing with different regs- MANY, MANY shops do not replace this DIN oring with the proper oring- many shops use a rougly equivalent non-metric oring. The only difference in fit affects what Ari mentioned- The DIN orings do NOT fall off the regulator. They fit snugly on the inner dimension, where almost all DIN regulators have a concave face, for the express purpose of retaining the O-ring. The non-metric oring is squished inside the outer dimension, which does not hold the oring adequately. The proper oring size for a DIN regulator is 2.5 x 11mm. All the manufacturers kits will have the proper o-ring, but replacements for O-rings lost in action will almost never be from a full kit. Ask your shop tech- if he tells you that a 111 will work OK- he is wrong, and you are reaping the benefits.

J