Jeff Hancock's Devils map is available......

[Rich]

Jeff just stopped by the shop with his new Devil's Eye cave maps.......They are of the full cave system and are not divided into a front half and a back half.....if you'd like to see what they look like, I have one and will be more than happy to let people see it.....

He's putting out 500 of the limited edition, handsigned, numbered, original versions that he submitted to the Library of Congress at a cost of $120 each plus tax. These will be available only through Larry and Debra Green.

In 6 weeks he will be putting out a "tourist" version which will have "the Devil" on it and some "pretty pictures" (inserts) on it etc and these will also be available only through Larry and Debra Green for a cost of approximately $70 plus tax.

Anyways, hope y'all are having a great day and as always....

Safe diving,

Rich

[Doctor Evil]

Who got ahold of my cave map... That's my map. I was going to take over the cave system with that. MIne, Mine, Mine.

At least it doesn't have the Pinnacle Dome Line on it. I'll sell my copy for 1 billion trillion dollars.

[Jason B.]

LOL!
Thanks for the laugh Dr. Evil!

Jason B.

[John L.]

Hey Rich,
Can you just make a photocopy for me! Ha Ha.

[Rich]

Hey Rich,
Can you just make a photocopy for me! Ha Ha.


LOL John!!

You know I always have a copy :D You wouldn't believe how many people have PMed me asking for a digital pic, so they "can see what it looks like" :roll: Hope to see you again soon, bud!!

Safe diving,

Rich

[Anonymous]

Yall think it's cute to pull posts huh?

[rblackburn]

Yall think it's cute to pull posts huh?

They violated Rule 3:


No obscene or offensive language.

[Anonymous]

Ok, Yall gots me there. But, I still want to sell a few copies of my map of the deep section at JB. $50 plus shipping. It's a shame that we've held out this long. So if yall want a copy, let me know.

[Doctor Evil]

And for my next map,... what shall I call it... Ahhh The "Allen Parson Cave Map", then we can sit and drink lots of mojo.

[Anonymous]

And for my next map,... what shall I call it... Ahhh The "Allen Parson Cave Map", then we can sit and drink lots of mojo.

You can call BS all you want. I'm looking at the framed map hanging on my wall right now, right next to the CDS map of JB with other penciled in passages. The joke is on you.

[Deep-Thief]

Hey Rich,
Can you just make a photocopy for me! Ha Ha.


LOL John!!

You know I always have a copy :D You wouldn't believe how many people have PMed me asking for a digital pic, so they "can see what it looks like" :roll:
Rich


Hmm??? :smt017 Well, since I was one of those that PMed and asked you for a digital pic - Just exactly what are you insinuating and/or implying??? I would hate to ASS-U-ME what you meant.

[DeWayne]

Hey Rich, can you give us a few details to help us decide if the first run will be worth the cost? I know it is a very detailed map with all the sm passages, what about overall size? Laminated? Any other aspects that might make us want to rush right out and pay the asking price? BTW, do you have Larry's email addy handy? PM me if you want. Thanks bud 8)

[Tegg]

I think that for the amount of detail that I saw, and the amount of passages... its worth the cash.

[FW]

Hey Rich, can you give us a few details to help us decide if the first run will be worth the cost? I know it is a very detailed map with all the sm passages, what about overall size? Laminated? Any other aspects that might make us want to rush right out and pay the asking price? BTW, do you have Larry's email addy handy? PM me if you want. Thanks bud 8)

I think it is about 3X4 feet.

[Moonfuzzy]

I saw an 'almost done' copy a couple weeks ago. I believe that it was as large as Forrest says, and it was laminated.

I think Jeff is using the same printer / laminator that Dive Rite uses, it is very professional and a high quality product. You can tell that a lot of time and energy has gone into this map.

[Moonfuzzy]

Well, since I was one of those that PMed and asked you for a digital pic - Just exactly what are you insinuating and/or implying???

Jeff has had the maps copyrighted, and has been adament about people not copying them. I think that fact combined with the load of requests that Rich has gotten is funny - if the people requesting a peek knew Jeff they would probably know better than to ask ; )

[Gary]

I haven't seen them since they hit the shelves but Jeff's is one of the best maps of the first half of the system I have seen and for the 2nd half of the cave infinitely better then anything else out there. His new symbols for restrictions (x, xx, and xxx restrictions) gives a better reference then the old way by far.

[Dwain]

I've seen the map and wil be purchasing one soon. Awsome map

[ARY]

Awsome map
I former USSR such map would be classified. :-)

[Dwain]

Awsome map
I former USSR such map would be classified. :-)

It's not classified but it does have a copyright.

[DeWayne]

Thanks all, guess this means I better make the GF happy this evening 8)

[Deep-Thief]

Well, since I was one of those that PMed and asked you for a digital pic - Just exactly what are you insinuating and/or implying???

Jeff has had the maps copyrighted, and has been adament about people not copying them. I think that fact combined with the load of requests that Rich has gotten is funny - if the people requesting a peek knew Jeff they would probably know better than to ask ; )

Well I will ask the question of you - Just what are you insinuating and/or implying???

[Rich]

Well, since I was one of those that PMed and asked you for a digital pic - Just exactly what are you insinuating and/or implying???

Jeff has had the maps copyrighted, and has been adament about people not copying them. I think that fact combined with the load of requests that Rich has gotten is funny - if the people requesting a peek knew Jeff they would probably know better than to ask ; )

Well I will ask the question of you - Just what are you insinuating and/or implying???

Nobody is insinuating or implying anything, Jeff's a good friend of mine and he was just here gassing up and I showed him this thread. His comments are definitely unprintable :D but there's just no way I'd take a picture of his map.

I have various copies from early versions to the latest and if you'd like to see one, he just dropped off an unlaminated copy which is hanging inside Cave Excursions East for people to look at.....so I'd suggest if anybody wants to see what it looks like come to cave country....flow's way down at Ginnie and the vis is crystal :-D

The detail is incredible, it's laminated, has all passages (including sidemount) along with 3 different types of restrictions (regular, sidemount and major) plus the domes, the lines, the names, the direction of flow etc etc.

They're available only through Larry and Deb.....you can reach them at lgreen@atlantic.net

Hope this answers all questions and if they're are anymore holler at me...

Safe diving,

Rich

[Deep-Thief]

Rich, I can understand that he doesn't want his work to be pirated. I was not asking for a close up of every detail. It hanging on the wall and the camera 8-10 feet back would suffice. If you can make a map that is worth anything from that image than you are better than I. I will not plop down $120.00 on something I have never seen and have no clue as to the quality. If you remember I had asked for dimensions. This might have helped to know the detail along with your description above. To see your copy would be a little difficult as I live approx. 12 hours away. Yes I could wait until the next time down but would have rather done something sooner as the next time may be 7-8 months. Thats ok if he dosen't want pics it just means that he doesn't need my $120 right now, if ever.

[NitroxWarrior]

hers a general idea of what it looks like

Copyright enfringement issues! :orccensored
Image removed by moderator (FW)

[Line Squirrel]

Hey Rich,
What's the keyman price?!? :-D

[Doctor Evil]

Hey Rich,
What's the keyman price?!? :-D

You must BRING IN THE CLONE...

Then you can have my map/

[Jay]

Does he have an imperial version?

[FW]

hers a general idea of what it looks like


That is exactly what Jeff is trying to avoid.

I hope (for your sake) he never finds out who you are.

[John L.]

Rich's map is autographed by Jeff with a face of a devil that says: Copy and Die!". It's not bullshit, he means it.

[NitroxWarrior]

Sorry, I didnt even know that was his map. I got it from doing a google search!

I thought it was one of bermans old maps.

[Gary]

hers a general idea of what it looks like

That is exactly what Jeff is trying to avoid.

Calm down guys - that's not Jeff's map. That version has been availiable on the internet for many years.

That one is a Steve Berman / Todd Kincaid map. I'm not sure of the copyright status or exact dates.

Jeff's map has considerably more detail.

[NitroxWarrior]

yah, that is what I thought. I just thought I would share the joy of being able to get a general idea of what the farthest reaches of the devils cave system look like :wink: lol

[mfascuba]

Rich, I can understand that he doesn't want his work to be pirated. I was not asking for a close up of every detail. It hanging on the wall and the camera 8-10 feet back would suffice. If you can make a map that is worth anything from that image than you are better than I. I will not plop down $120.00 on something I have never seen and have no clue as to the quality. If you remember I had asked for dimensions. This might have helped to know the detail along with your description above. To see your copy would be a little difficult as I live approx. 12 hours away. Yes I could wait until the next time down but would have rather done something sooner as the next time may be 7-8 months. Thats ok if he dosen't want pics it just means that he doesn't need my $120 right now, if ever.

I'm a friend of Jeff's, and as has been noted, he is very serious about the copyright he holds on his work. He has spent about 5 years and countless dives collecting data, and has put more detail on his map than any of the previously published maps of this system. As far as what has been insinuated, I'll come out and say that what is being asked (digital pic) would be a violation of his rights as the author of the work. I'm not a lawyer, but common sense is common sense. No need to be insulted by the responses. As far as the quality and the price, you'll have to be the judge. The map is about the same size as the Berman map, maybe a little longer, but shows much more detail, and all of the cave that's been lined. If you need to wait to see it before you plunk down your cash, that's your decision. If you don't want to pay the asking price, that's OK too. I'll pay the $$, as it would cost me more that his asking price to buy gasoline to drive back and forth to Ginnie to do the number of dives it would take to re-survey the cave. And I won't insult the cartographer by copying his work.

Sorry if I come off a bit short. Been almost a week since I've been in the water.

Time to go diving,

Mark

[bernieflyer]

Rich could you let us know the difference between the $120 map and the next one for $70. I guess they both have the same info, but do both have all the permanent line placement like his old blueprint? I wonder why should i pay $50 more just for an autographed map (wich is copyrighted anyways) when i could get the cheaper one with the same info but (you say) with pretty pictures. Pictures of what by the way????

[FW]

Rich could you let us know the difference between the $120 map and the next one for $70. I guess they both have the same info, but do both have all the permanent line placement like his old blueprint? I wonder why should i pay $50 more just for an autographed map (wich is copyrighted anyways) when i could get the cheaper one with the same info but (you say) with pretty pictures. Pictures of what by the way????

The $70 version is *much* smaller then the $120 version. It is meant to carry with you in the van. The big one is for home planning.

[Sid]

hers a general idea of what it looks like


That is exactly what Jeff is trying to avoid.

I hope (for your sake) he never finds out who you are.

That wasn't JH's map, that was the old SB map prior to the nearly recent SB map on display at Ginnie. Had it been a real JH map we would see the body (and or body pieces) of the copywrite infringer being recovered from the pine trees on CNN and a lot of puzzled CSI guys scratching their heads. Anyway I would highly encourage anyone interested to just buy the map sight unseen even, cause it is the deffinitive resource if you wan't to find your way around devils. Maybe they could post a small exerpt, kinda like the cow map just to show the detail and the accuracy for those skeptical potential buyers, hey it even got thlines drawn in at the right spots. Sid selling his armani pants for some dough to get the big map.

[NitroxWarrior]

I respect copyrhights and I wouldnt post somthing i knew sombody worked hard to make. Steve Berman shared this rough map, its all over the net and I just wanted to show everybody what the map will basicly look like. Just trying to be helpfull, I shouldnt even have to defend myself to you guys anyway...

[Jordan]

Rich's map is autographed by Jeff with a face of a devil that says: Copy and Die!". It's not cow patty, he means it.

Bud, don't be silly. He would get his money back and he would woop their ass. It'd probably look something like this but with more tweetly birds and stars:


http://cavediver.net/photopost/data/504/medium/117Devio.jpg

[Deep-Thief]

Rich, I can understand that he doesn't want his work to be pirated. I was not asking for a close up of every detail. It hanging on the wall and the camera 8-10 feet back would suffice. If you can make a map that is worth anything from that image than you are better than I. I will not plop down $120.00 on something I have never seen and have no clue as to the quality. If you remember I had asked for dimensions. This might have helped to know the detail along with your description above. To see your copy would be a little difficult as I live approx. 12 hours away. Yes I could wait until the next time down but would have rather done something sooner as the next time may be 7-8 months. Thats ok if he dosen't want pics it just means that he doesn't need my $120 right now, if ever.

I'm a friend of Jeff's, and as has been noted, he is very serious about the copyright he holds on his work. He has spent about 5 years and countless dives collecting data, and has put more detail on his map than any of the previously published maps of this system. As far as what has been insinuated, I'll come out and say that what is being asked (digital pic) would be a violation of his rights as the author of the work. I'm not a lawyer, but common sense is common sense. No need to be insulted by the responses. As far as the quality and the price, you'll have to be the judge. The map is about the same size as the Berman map, maybe a little longer, but shows much more detail, and all of the cave that's been lined. If you need to wait to see it before you plunk down your cash, that's your decision. If you don't want to pay the asking price, that's OK too. I'll pay the $$, as it would cost me more that his asking price to buy gasoline to drive back and forth to Ginnie to do the number of dives it would take to re-survey the cave. And I won't insult the cartographer by copying his work.

Sorry if I come off a bit short. Been almost a week since I've been in the water.

Time to go diving,

Mark

I was not trying to infringe on his rights by asking someone to let me see a pic of it. I was trying to get someone to advertise it so that maybe some people would buy it. You are correct, "common sense is common sense" and common sense says that when you spend 5 years and countless hours producing something you should want to get some of your money back. Now to get your money back you need to promote and advertise it so that people want to buy it. Common sense says you want to take a pic of it and show people that it is of the quality to warrent someone spending $120.

How do you do this and still protect your rights, Well how about that far away pic I talked about. The one that you can't see all the details of it but you can still see it is of quality to frame and mount on your wall. Now lets make a good close up that shows all the details. Put that pic in a picture program and lets crop it down a little. Lets crop it down to say... include from the two entrances to the "lips". Everyone that has dove that system knows from the entrance to the lips so who cares if you let them see that. Now we can see the quality that has gone into the work and nothing important was given away for free. You now have people seeing your product and you are enticing them to want to buy a copy.

As for being insulted from the responses. Hell yes I am insulted and offended. Someone insinuates and implies that I am trying to STEAL and pirate someones copyrighted work. Wouldn't you be insulted. Oh thats right Rich wasn't insinuating anything, Bull $#!@. If you are going to do it then at least have the balls to admit it. :evil:

I too am sorry for sounding short and irritated. I am just shaking my head ruefully at this whole thing.

[Gary]

I was not trying to infringe on his rights by asking someone to let me see a pic of it. I was trying to get someone to advertise it so that maybe some people would buy it.
I don' think a distant picture from so far that you can't make anything out or a section of the cave that everyone already has are going to advertise Jeff's map well.

Word of mouth from those who have the map that say it's the best map out there and a very good map for the money and won't make a copy of it for anyone else, ever, under any circumstances, is the advertising plan.

On that subject:
I have an copy of it and it's a very good map (even though mine doesn't have the lines included). I've also seen the 3'x4' final version and it is the best, most complete map out there of this system. I have dove nearly every passage on it and compared it with my knowledge of the system and find it to be EXCELLENT.

The style is Jeff's own and he knows more about that cave then anyone else I've ever met. (Did you know he's got roughly 1500 dives in that system?) To me it also just feels right. There is more a sense of the passages bending "right" in his map - the way I draw a map in my head. Jeff's map contains more information about more of the cave and better accuracy then any other map of the system I've seen - plus the way the lines are laid out which no other map out there has.

The price is roughly the same as the 2 halves of the Steve Berman map.

If I were you and wanted a map of the system I'd get the small public map to keep in the back of the dive vehicle and wait until you get down to see the big one. If you are a real fan of the system and want something nice to hang (and have enough free wall space) consider buying the big one.

[Rich]

:-)

[Rich]

sorry double post :)

[Rich]

[As for being insulted from the responses. Hell yes I am insulted and offended. Someone insinuates and implies that I am trying to STEAL and pirate someones copyrighted work. Wouldn't you be insulted. Oh thats right Rich wasn't insinuating anything, Bull $#!@. If you are going to do it then at least have the balls to admit it. :evil:

I too am sorry for sounding short and irritated. I am just shaking my head ruefully at this whole thing.

I hate to break it to you but you weren't the only one asking for a pic.....however you are the only one that went off the deep end about me not taking one for you.....

Jeff doesn't give a crap about whether you buy his map, he doesn't need to advertise it, it speaks for itself.......frankly I don't know why you'd need it any ways, you seem to have far more fun being petty and self-righteous about some perceived innuendos on the net!!

My advice would be to actually go out and do some cave dives instead of bitching on a forum. If you get the urge to come up here to cave country, I'd be more than happy to show you around Devil's (with or without looking at the map) and believe me, if I thought you were trying to steal my friend's map I'd let you know......I don't have a problem saying what's on my mind as my friends can attest.... :-D

Safe diving,

Rich

[curtschu]

Man How about locking this thread down. What a waste of time all the hard feeling. I say drop it all and go diving. But since it looks like everything is getting pretty ugly.... Anyone got a big boat.. let find some wrecks!!!!and act British for a while.

[Dan Thoms]

Jeff just stopped by the shop with his new Devil's Eye cave maps.......They are of the full cave system and are not divided into a front half and a back half.....if you'd like to see what they look like, I have one and will be more than happy to let people see it.....

He's putting out 500 of the limited edition, handsigned, numbered, original versions that he submitted to the Library of Congress at a cost of $120 each plus tax. These will be available only through Larry and Debra Green.

In 6 weeks he will be putting out a "tourist" version which will have "the Devil" on it and some "pretty pictures" (inserts) on it etc and these will also be available only through Larry and Debra Green for a cost of approximately $70 plus tax.

Anyways, hope y'all are having a great day and as always....

Safe diving,

Rich


How do we get ahold of Larry or Debra? To obtain one, before they are gone?

Thanks

[Rich]

.
How do we get ahold of Larry or Debra? To obtain one, before they are gone?

Thanks

Hiya Dan!!

They're out of town for the weekend, but they'll be back next week! You can reach them at lgreen@atlantic.net

Hope this helps :D

Safe diving,

Rich

[Dan Thoms]

Thank-you Sir.

:)

[Doctor Evil]

Ha, Ha. WORD!.. ah' know gots da map on mah' new electronic haids down display attached t'my scoota' so when I'm zippin' drough ah' can tell where I'm at even wid out lights.