inert gas...

[kinetic]

Odd question.....but comments welcome..

If, you have an immediate loss of all gas bar an inert gas to breathe what happens if you breathe that inert gas on an immediate ascent?

Does anyone dive with inert gases on cave penetrations, for any reason?


Graham

[Deep-Thief]

Odd question.....but comments welcome..

If, you have an immediate loss of all gas bar an inert gas to breathe what happens if you breathe that inert gas on an immediate ascent?

Does anyone dive with inert gases on cave penetrations, for any reason?


Graham
Possibly Argon to fill your dry suit for warmth. What would happen, don't know, not qualified enough. Immediate ascent would mean you wern't in deco. If you are then that is not an option, unless you want to risk foaming at the mouth and a chamber ride or worse, death. Immediate ascent in O/W, just exhale, remember you don't breathe out of a lack of O2 but from a build up of CO2. Worst case as you are assending the air in your bc will expand, when you let it out, let it out into your mouth. No I have never tried it but you can bet if its that or dying I am going to try it in a hurry. Just my two cents worth.

[Gary]

If, you have an immediate loss of all gas bar an inert gas to breathe what happens if you breathe that inert gas on an immediate ascent?
The oxygenless inert gas would help purge what oxygen you had out of you lungs and posiably even help draw oxygen out of the blood. You'd loose consciousness in the most rapid and painless method achievable under the circumstances.

Rebreathing your wing would achive the same thing eventually but for a while it would at least provide some oxygen and CO2 removal. I think due to pressure increasing the O2 and CO2 concentrations that at any significant depth you'd achieve a CO2 headache before you ran low enough on oxygen to pass out. As you got shallower though that would reverse and the O2 would get less concentrated as you neared the surface - posiably leading to shallow water blackout and a CO2 headache.

(In theory rebreathing the wing could work but if you had the option just ascend while exhaling. In practice it woud be both difficult to do and probably unhealthy unless your wings were recently cleaned.)

Argon for drysuit inflation would also provide a fair amount of extra narcosis - slightly more then twice the effective depth for Nitrogen Narcosis.

There is an innert gas unconsciousness accident report on the IUCRR website where a diver acidentily used a deco bottle filled with 100% helium instead of oxygen, passed out and died: http://www.iucrr.org/20011026_01.htm

[bullfrog]

Breathing an inert gas is the worst option. You will die and fast! You can breath from the wings but that won't help for long. Tried that from 60 feet once , made it to thirty before my brain said use you regulator now! The co2 builds up fast. I don't think anyone in thier right mind would put a second stage on an argon bottle.

[DeWayne]

Saw a post about a year or so back about a dad finding his son floating face down in their pool. Seems the kid found dad's unmarked argon bottle, and thinking that it was a minature scuba tank put a reg on it and jumped in the pool. That should tell you just how quick breathing a pure inert gas will kill you. It will rapidly displace the oxygen in your system and kill you before you can even react to spit the reg out.

[jpdiver]

I know someone who mistakenly breathed a bottle of Aron at 10 feet and went unconconcious after about 3 breaths. Only a heroic CPR effort saved his life. A 100% inert gas will kill very quickly

[Stu]

Okay, I'm not exactly a guru on this subject, but I'd have to disagree with a lot of that.

Yes, breathing an inert gas will kill you. You have the same (roughly) 4 minutes of time without oxygen before you can be sure that you'd be unconscious, but my take is that you're getting rid of the CO2 buildup which is what makes you *feel the need* to breathe. As such, without the thought of "Must breathe!!! Must breathe!!!" you're not as likely to panic and lose those few extra seconds which could get you out.

The kid who died from breathing argon probably didn't even know there was a problem for a few minutes until he passed out, and it's unlikely he even realised he was going to pass out. As for breathing off the wing, if you ever saw the amount of fungus that builds up inside them, you'd realise that you'll probably survive longer by just holding your breath.

There's actually an easy and relatively safe way to test this theory though. Go find a bouncy castle, hold your breath, and see how long you can jump about for before you *need* to breathe. Now get a pony full of argon, breathe off the reg and time yourself again. Well, make that: get someone else to time how long it takes until you pass out. The bouncy castle will make sure that you don't get clobbered when you pass out, and the reg will fall out of your mouth at that point anyway. And it'll be a real laugh for the person timing you :lol: Or maybe that's just my twisted sense of humour.... :!:

2 points you should look for here. Which one gave you more time, and would you prefer to pass out from lack of oxygen or get a massive CO2 buildup first? At least breathing the inert gas is a pleasant way to go, but just think of the IRAP on that one....

I've managed to pass out from shallow water blackout once, btw. A little CO2 buildup making me want to get to the surface, but no panic due to lack of O2, and I didn't know a thing between hauling myself up a line and lying on the floor where they'd dragged me. That'd be a great way to go.

[crazyduck]

Ok, the wing issue-
I can’t speak to other subjects but this is something I have messed around with.

Perhaps the best known incident was a commercial diver that got caught laying beams underwater and was pinned. He realized that help would arrive but he needed time. He had a wing and did a basic SCR method. He inflated the wing- enough to breathe and then took 4 breathes and exhaled the gas. By doing this he survived the situation.

I had an accident in 2001 were I was diving a Beuchat steel tank (really a drop tank.) The recreational BC I was wearing could not support the tank properly. The tank strap slipped and I was suddenly connected via the LP hose connection and the second stage. The drop tank was incredibly over weighted so I felt like my head was about to be ripped off. Every breathe was a combination of air and lake water as I bit down on the mouthpiece praying it would not snap or break. After a few second I realized that I was in control and make a slow but deliberate ascent to the surface.
Probably a near drowning; medical care made the difference. I walked into the doctor’s office on Monday morning and they saw me immediately. I was already coughing and barking, treatment was heavy load of antibiotics. My head was clogged up for a good month.
Edit- -My point was the effect of trying to breathe lake water.

Depending on the diver and the type of diving- This sort of thing supports a bailout rebreather unit. However, that brings a ton of other issues to bear.

Andrew

[Gary]

Ok, the wing issue-
I can’t speak to other subjects but this is something I have messed around with.

Perhaps the best known incident was a commercial diver that got caught laying beams underwater and was pinned. He realized that help would arrive but he needed time. He had a wing and did a basic SCR method. He inflated the wing- enough to breathe and then took 4 breathes and exhaled the gas. By doing this he survived the situation.

I actually gave the wing breathing a try. After throughly cleaning my wing I went diving and gave it a try. I attempted a one breath to every 2 from the wing but found it hard to get water free air breathing from the wing and I still had to clear the reg each switch as well. It took some attention to do and distracted me from even swimming properly or watching where I should be going.

I have thought of a few ways to improve my first attempt but overall I concluded that unless I was going to sit still in one place and do nothing but pay attention to rebreathing the wing I could extend my air better by skip breathing, efficient swimming and paying attention to the cave.

Long, deep, slow breaths with an extended pause after each inhalation followed by a full exhale could extend most people's air by 50-100%.

[NitroxWarrior]

The only Inert gas I've ever used in diving was argon, I did hear that the chris and crissy rouse once experimented with an argon breathing mix. not sure what they were trying to acomplish, because argon leaves your body much slower than nitrogen so it doesnt make much sense to use...

[Stu]

The only Inert gas I've ever used in diving was argon, I did hear that the chris and crissy rouse once experimented with an argon breathing mix. not sure what they were trying to acomplish, because argon leaves your body much slower than nitrogen so it doesnt make much sense to use...

But a basic trimix of argon, nitrogen and oxygen would also give you less narcotic effect at depth, avoid some of the chill of breathing helium, and probably be a whole lot cheaper. However, from what I understand, Helium is the least narcotic gas on the planet. While Argon may allow you to hit (just a random guess, before any Trimix gurus clobber me for my "facts") 500 ft without narcosis, Helium may go twice that on a well planned mix. However, I agree that you may have to take the extra hang time to get it out of your system on the way back up. Worthwhile? That's probably why they were just experimenting with it....
[/quote]

[Gary]

But a basic trimix of argon, nitrogen and oxygen would also give you less narcotic effect at depth,
I think you are thinking Neon... argon should be a little more then twice the narcosis of Nitrogen.

[DeWayne]

That's what I was thinking. I've read accounts of the old school guys breathing argon/air mixtures sitting on their couches in an attempt to learn how to deal with narcosis at extreme depths. If it will narc you on your couch, hate to see the effect at depth.

[NitroxWarrior]

I didnt know it was so narcotic at sea level even, I wonder how dangerous it is. Teenagers might stop snuffing brake cleaner and start breathing argon mixes to get high, never thought being narced was very pleasurable though, lol...

but anyway I have a question,
I'm not certified to use trimix and I have never tried so I don't know about all this stuff, thats why i have this question. When using heliox do you have to undergo any decompression at all? can the helium eventually build up to the point in which decompression is needed like with nitrogen?
I know the helium makes you cold but theres ways of getting around that(i.e. batter powered heating pad, lol)

[Gary]

Plenty of Deco with Heliox. Starts sooner and deeper but the stops tend shorter and faster. Can actually be an advantage on diver with deco longer then about an hour.

I can't imagine Argon being much of a thrill at sea level. I did my experimentation with Nitrous Oxide which is something like 20 times as narcotic as Nitrogen (and about 10 times argon). Nitrous Oxide use by teenagers isn't something new either - they already do it. I'm sure it's a lot healthier then brake cleaner or most of the other horrible asphyxiant fumes they snuff. I did hear about a pool drowning associated with Nitrous though. It's very narcotic on the surface - at 16 ft depth it's an anesthesia (1.5 ata x 20 = 33 ata nitrogen or 637ft nitrogen narcosis equivalent) (ref: IANTD Technical Diver Encyclopedia p104)

[pst]

If you breath pure argon it only takes a couple of breaths to pass out. Since it contains zero percent oxygen, the oxygen will not only be metabolized but also off gassed - tissue hypoxia.

I suggest try breathing argon sitting on your couch. Take deep breaths. Just make sure someone can catch you so you don't hurt yourself when you pass out. I mean it, seriously.

Peter

[JLH]

That can be very dangerous for the very reasons you stated.

[Sid]

If you breath pure argon it only takes a couple of breaths to pass out. Since it contains zero percent oxygen, the oxygen will not only be metabolized but also off gassed - tissue hypoxia.

I suggest try breathing argon sitting on your couch. Take deep breaths. Just make sure someone can catch you so you don't hurt yourself when you pass out. I mean it, seriously.

Peter

Don't breath anything but air on the couch, argon is heavier than air, it might be difficult to get rid of it while your laying there passed out not breathing and well dying, also don't sit around beathing anything else that has no 02 in cause well thaat will kill you too possibly

[Caver95]

I like darwin, Please feel free to breath what ever you want. don't let anyone tell you that you can't prove them wrong.

[tanto]

I think there is a bit of confusion between death and loss of conciousness.
Two deep breaths of any inert gas are sufficient to wash out oxygen from the lungs and make you lose conciousness immediately. I do believe this is from the body attempting to protect the vital organs, like in shallow water black-out when breath-holding, so I believe that the heart would continue to beat for some time before you actually die.
A simple experiment can be done, we did it, that's why and how I learned: take a tank of helium and breathe off it, to speak like donald duck; if, to maximize the donald duck effect you completely exale prior to inhaling helium, and exale again completely to wash out all the air you had in the lungs, you lose conciousness and fall down. Of course, if you only partially exale, it takes three or four breaths.
Do it gradually and you learn to almost faint, it's quite an awful experience, I would recommend to have someone capable of cpr next to you. Or take my word for it.
The anesthetic used by the doctors is added with oxygen, is never used pure.

A simple experiment can be done, we did it, that's why and how I learned: take a tank of helium and breathe off it, to speak like donald duck; if, to maximize the donald duck effect you completely exale prior to inhaling helium, and exale again completely to wash out all the air you had in the lungs, you lose conciousness and fall down.

Material Safety Data Sheet Helium Gas -

Section #5 - Exposure and effects - Inhalation

Routes of Exposure - Inhalation

Helium is a simple asphyxiant. Maintain oxygen levels above 19.5% at sea level. Effects of overexposure to high concentrations so as to displace oxygen in the air necessary for life are headache, dizziness, labored breathing and eventual unconsciousness. Breathing mixtures of helium with adequate oxygen to support life modifies the voice so that it is high pitched. Helium is nontoxic, but the release of a large amount in a confined area could displace the oxygen in air necessary to support life.

First Aid - Inhalation
PROMPT MEDICAL ATTENTION IS MANDATORY IN ALL CASES OF OVEREXPOSURE. RESCUE PERSONNEL SHOULD BE EQUIPPED WITH SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS.

Conscious persons should be assisted to an uncontaminated area and inhale fresh air. Quick removal from the contaminated area is most important. Unconscious persons should be moved to an uncontaminated area, given mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and supplemental oxygen. Further treatment should be symptomatic and supportive.

[NitroxWarrior]

Yah, I dont think messing with No-oxygen mixes is smart. even if you have sombody to help you

[Gary]

You can breath from the wings but that won't help for long. Tried that from 60 feet once , made it to thirty before my brain said use you regulator now! The co2 builds up fast. I don't think anyone in thier right mind would put a second stage on an argon bottle.
Most BC corrogated hoses are pretty long and also thicker than a snorkel so would provide a lot of dead space (more like rebreathing the hose then the wing). If your BC hose was fairly long it was likely not doing much to help remove CO2.

[kinetic]

Thanks all...have been watching the replies and certainly food for thought.

I think Stu made a point, capturing the angel I was coming from, in that If you feel the need to breathe on the rapid ascent you could relieve that need bt breathing an inert gas, or, more likely, off your wing.

Someone very astsutely pointed out that you would not have a second stage on an inert gas bottle.

So, it would be possible to breathe a gas on a rapid ascent to relieve the üurge to breathe, exhaling on ascent, and get away with it...depth and asvent time dependent.

Just interested, not going to try. I appreciate the comments of all of you that know more than me.

Regards.

kinetic

[jess]

My Thoughts:
When we dive trimix we decompress with nitrox and 100% oxygen for accelerated decompression. Why? Decompression theory says that the rate of offgassing is determined by the gradient (ratio) of the amount of gas in our blood vs the amount of that same gas in what we are breathing.
So we dive deep and long on a heavy helium mix and then as we ascend to our 70 ft stop we switch over to 50% nitrox (50% nitrogen, 50% oxygen, 0% helium). This gives us an optimal gradient to offgas the helium, which is how much ever we have accumulated in our blood vs 0% in our breathing mixture. This pulls the maximum amount of helium out of our blood with each exhalation. (Due to oxygen toxicity, we can't use more oxygen, but we are also offgassing any absorbed nitrogen, just not as efficiently as we are helium.) When we reach the 20 ft stop, we switch over to 100% oxygen, which offgasses both the helium and nitrogen at the maximum possible rate, because the gradient is 0% nitrogen and 0% helium in our breathing gas.
So if you are following me so far, you can see that breathing 100% argon (or any other inert gas) will actually suck the oxygen in your bloodstream from your body faster than holding your breath. (Remember, you have a 0% oxygen gradient here.) You will deplete your absorbed oxygen rapidly and pass out, which is usually fatal underwater. You don't have four minutes or whatever you would have holding your breath. Each exhalation you are offgassing oxygen!
Breathing inert gas on the surface is crazy. Breathing it underwater is suicidal. Putting a breathable regulator on an inert gas bottle is criminal.
Please be careful.
Just my thoughts......

Jesse

[novadiver]

A good rule of thumb is ,if you are even considering breathing argon on a dive, you already have made too many mistakes, and are now the lead contender for a Darwin of the year award :?

[Gibby]

IMO breathing argon would be just as effective as taking that 3cf spare air with you jammed with 100% O2 for when you get key holed 1500 ft down the line with 100 psi left on your back.

[fixxervi6]

The only Inert gas I've ever used in diving was argon, I did hear that the chris and crissy rouse once experimented with an argon breathing mix. not sure what they were trying to acomplish, because argon leaves your body much slower than nitrogen so it doesnt make much sense to use...

Feel free to bash me or correct me as I am no expert and dont' try this, but this experiment was for deco mixes not working mixes, based on the idea of replacing one inert gas with another breathing say 50 oxygen and 50 argon will get nitrogen out a lot faster than 50 oxygen and 50 nitrogen, the key would be to play the balance before your body did too much uptake of argon and put your but in SERIOUS shallow deco (I just plugged some numbers in there dunno that you could do 50% argon as for how narcotic it is) but the fact should be that if you drop the nitrogen cotent in your deco mix and replace it with another inert gas, like argon, you will off gas nitrogen faster, since argon is so slow to load, you may be able to play the balance to speed up your deco.

With that said I'm no expert and that is my sepculatio based on my understanding of pressure gradiants and such, am I completely wrong or close or did someone spike my punch today?

[novadiver]

Breathing spray paint for deco would have the same effect as argon, but I wouldn't try it. :wink: