How Long?

[skip]

Talking with a friend the other day, he made the comment that cave divers last about five years, then wander off to other things, unless they find something more to do than "simply" dive the known florida caves. It made me wonder if that's true.

-skip

[FW]

It isn't true, I have been cavediving for over 40 years :-D

[skip]

I guess that makes you a "D" diver! (10+ years). But we all know how uncommon you are!

-skip

[FW]

You should ahve made the "A" diver 0-2 years. There is no place for a brand new diver to vote.

[Superlyte27]

I started Cave Diving in '97. I had a whole mess of kids, took a long break, and just now came back. I always missed it, but never had the time or money to keep pursuiing it. I'm back now, and sincerely hope i'm still cave diving well into the future.

[phreaticus]

...38 years....
And I know many who have more...Bill Main, Paul Heinreth, Wes Skiles, Guy Bryant, and lots more....

[Jim Wyatt]

:arrowredI started cave diving in 1973, just after finishing high school.:arrowred

[FW]

...38 years....
And I know many who have more...Bill Main, Paul Heinreth, Wes Skiles, Guy Bryant, and lots more....
Steve Foreman, Gene Melton, Bill Oigarden, Jim Lockwood, John Harper.....OFG-1 :roll:

Most of them won't even come onto a forum, because they remember the old cavediver listserver.

[FW]

:arrowredI started cave diving in 1973, just after finishing high school.:arrowred
Such a Noobie :rollguy

[Jim Wyatt]

Such a Noobie :rollguy

I know I must be as I learn something new with every cave dive!! :diver

[JahJahwarrior]

Last night at the bank this old Vietnam vet stopped me...called himself Maynard and told me Ll about his cavediving. He laid line at devils with sheck. Can't dive now due to health issues but seemed to have done quite a bit of diving before I was even born.

[Ben M]

We must have a bunch of old guys on this board. There is already 20 votes for over 10 years and only 40 have voted.

I am not an old guy and if this poll was taken in a few months I'd fall in the 10+ bracket. I voted "C".

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I keep finding known florida caves, its been damned difficult to find one NOT known, but I know they're out there!




Oh yeah... 3-5, better find something new before I get bored.

[Slüdge]

Last night at the bank this old Vietnam vet stopped me.

It's too late now, but I wish you had given him information about the CDF Social coming in July. Last year Tex Chalkley showed up, and he hasn't been cave diving in probably twenty years.

[wdt]

yes more than 5 years.
Started in EU in 1995, never stopped since, hope it will keep going, when you are hooked you are.
Safe dives

[aainslie]

Skip,

Looking at the frequency of 3-5 vs 6-10, and assuming a constant entry rate over the period, the hypothesis looks to probably be correct. However, given the high number OVER 10, it seems that if you get to 10, you pretty much never leave. It'd be nice to use a hazard rate model with annual numbers - 1,2,3, etc - rather than censored data, but I bet a fancy model would give the same result.

Therre's a selection bias problem of course - this could mean that they leave boards after 5 years rather than that they stop diving.

OK, hijack over, y'all can go back to talking about how old Forrest is... :)

[OFG-1]

Well not that Forrest isn't old, but this is a picture of my first dry suit! (June 1973)

[Slüdge]

this is a picture of my first dry suit! (June 1973)

Liar! The photo is labeled 3-10-2010. You took that today!

[sskasser]

Well not that Forrest isn't old, but this is a picture of my first dry suit! (June 1973)

Yeah, those were the days, eh? ::joy Of course, this one was only dry until I got in the water. :smt102

[cavediver515]

I have been cave certified since early 2000. i am still diving to this day but over the past year or so it has been a lot less than the previous years. hopefully that will change in 2010.

[Bob Cree]

27 years. There was a big family break in the middle, then back to it...what's up with these certifications anyway? :)

And the internet came after the 60/70/80's...so maybe the REAL old timers (except of course Forrest) never got wind of it and are too senile to figure it out now (Forrest - I know...or at least I think I do, that you aren't senile)? So the >10 number is likely much larger...Hell, I'm 51 and finally managed to turn on one of these darn electronic, two finger, Jeano Beano talky thingies...even with post-senile syndrome at play!

[amphipod06]

No offense to anyone who stopped for a while and then resumed cave diving, but how about cave diving without taking any sabbaticals?

I am not a spring chicken but not in Forrest's league either, :-) and I have been cave diving on a continuous basis since 1998 when we first earned our full cave certification (it would be 1997 except we were only Apprentice Cave Divers for a year....)

Dive safe,

Celia

[netmage]

:arrowredI started cave diving in 1973, just after finishing high school.:arrowred

I was born in 1973.... hoping to never stop... I wish I got to cave country more often, and I really enjoy some of the same repetitive dives.... so I don't see myself getting bored of it anytime soon. Lots of opportunities in places like Peacock and Ginnie to mix it up.

If anything, I'm finding the cold weather and unpredictable seas driving me away from ocean diving more.

-Tim 'whippersnapper'....

[BobK]

I started to cave dive as something fun to do when I wasn't spearfishing in the ocean. I find myself losing interest - in spearfishing. I find I'd much rather look at rocks then shoot another big, tasty, melt in your mouth grouper. There's always the barbeque place in Mayo ;-)

[K Mejean]

I'm still a newbie but I see no end in sight. I did cavern to prep for wreck and got hooked. I still haven't made it to a wreck class but I have done Basic Cave. Suffering through the waiting for the flood to be over so I can go do some more. Its a long trek to Mariana although I am considering it.

[farmerted]

I would agree with the 5 year thing. It seems it is not isolated to cave diving, but to diving in general. I've been diving nonstop for 26 years and in caves for 16. Have been teaching for 20 with a break between 99 and 2004. In recent years, i've noticed quite a few people get involved in diving and within 2-3 years have a rebreather and all the other goodies only to move on to other things soon after.

[cmalinowski]

Well not that Forrest isn't old, but this is a picture of my first dry suit! (June 1973)Is that George Irvine in the plum smugglers helping you out? :)

[Cindy]

It isn't true, I have been cavediving for over 40 years :-D
You took a time out...I know a couple of others who have done that, waiting to retire, get a divorce, the kids grow up.

[Cindy]

:arrowredI started cave diving in 1973, just after finishing high school.:arrowred
Oh my god, that means we are the same age!

[scububa]

2.5 years
2.5 to go, wooohooo

4.5 if I back to cavern

[cavediver256]

Well this is year #10, and I see no end in sight......

[RN]

In my 5th year now and don't see an end to it. I did move 2000 miles to be closer to the caves. But I also have found "something more to do than dive the known Florida caves." Although, like Mat, lots of the caves I'm diving are known, they just aren't known by too many these days.

[cavemark]

3.5 years and I'm just getting started. 1.5 years from now I'll have my Abe Davis and be able to see some new stuff.

I'm not sure how old Forrest is, but every time I see him some place everyone else is standing around talking and he's diving. I get inspired and hope that at some point I'll stop socializing and dive more. Not that he's anti-social, he just doesn't let it get in the way of diving.

[DA Aquamaster]

You should have made the "A" diver 0-2 years. There is no place for a brand new diver to vote.Your intervals are uneven as well

1-2 = 2 years inclusive
3-5 = 3 years inclusive
6-10 = 5 years inclusive
10+ = year 11 to Forrest

It will skew the appearance of the bar graph in the poll and puts increasing weight on the B and C options separate from the actual number of responses in any given year in those categories.

The sample also only applies to divers on this particular board, not the population at large. I have met a few "experience" cave divers who seldom if ever go on the internet, so the over 10 year category is potentially under represented if it is true that older individuals who cave dive are also less likely to spend significant time on internet forums.

I think divers with 10 plus years in the sport are less likely to succumb to 1-3 noted below, but the fact that 32% of the respondents selected "10+" means a lot less than it would with unequal intervals. Try it again with 0-5 years, 6-10 years, 11-15, years, 16-20 years, 21-25, years, 26-30 years and 31+ years and you might get a much more accurate picture of the distribution within the range of active cave diving years.

"Active" is a key word as well - ask the respondents to only count calendar years in which they actually made a cave dive.


None of it is a big deal, just a hold over from teaching research methods at the university level and doing field level program evaluation.

-----

That said, I think there is probably some truth to the hypothesis of higher attrition from the sport after 5 years.

1. If the diver's motivation is to try something new, they'll stop doing it once it is no longer "new" and that is I suspect especially true for cave diving as it can be very time and money intensive to maintain.

2. Other divers will drop out of an activity like cave diving as it requires a minimum degree of currency to maintain the required level of skill. You can't just show up and do it over a weekend once or twice a year and expect to be at all competent. That requirement in many cases reinforces the cost aspectrs of number 1 above.

3. If you a) fail to maintain proficiency or, b) mis-perceive and then exceed the limits of your ability, and in either case scare yourself with a near miss, it can cause a diver to quit on the spot. At a minimum, it reinforces the need for number 2 and the requisite outlay of money and time.

The part time cave diver for whom cave diving is significantly less than a lifestyle is going to be much more prone to all 3.

[DA Aquamaster]

I'm not sure how old Forrest is, but every time I see him some place everyone else is standing around talking and he's diving. I get inspired and hope that at some point I'll stop socializing and dive more. Not that he's anti-social, he just doesn't let it get in the way of diving.That's the truth. The one really good opportunity I had to talk to him, I blew because I was currently focused on correcting an equipment problem and had my head buried in dive gear in the back of my SUV. In retrospect it was an mistake in priorities as you don't get to talk to people who have done nifty things, like invent line arrows, every day. I guess it's also a case of not letting socialization get in the way of diving.

[rchrds]

As the friend to whom Skip refers, this has been a long held belief of mine- though the year varies somewhat, it is very common for people to cave dive for about 5 years, and then move on to something else. That doesn't mean that they don't come back some time later and try again, but generally if someone doesn't develop an addiction to virgin, survey, photography, or some other specialty related to cave diving, they tend to move on to something else- like making babies, or investment banking. Andrew is correct, however, in that the ones that make it longer than 10 years or so tend to be hooked for a very long time, even if they just hang around on the internet blogs.
This is not an indictment of anyone, just an observation- Of course it would be very difficult to get a representative population on a cave diving forum- the vast majority of the target population is no longer involved in cave diving and thus could not respond, and not many really think they will move on prior to five years, or they wouldn't spend all that money that Dive Rite relies on.
A classic example of this syndrome- G. Irvine- though a vociferous, and arguably paradigm changing cave diver, still only lasted about five years before he moved on to whatever it is he is doing now.
Since Skip is the psychologist (and not just of cave fish) why is this? Is it that cave divers, as "risk-seekers" as we have been called, we naturally have a shorter "attention span" and must shift around between "high-risk" endeavors to stay interested? Or is it something else?

(Like 5 years is about when all of your new tanks have to be hydroed, and if you dont get around to it, when you finally have to rebuild all of your aging regulators, and all of a sudden you realize just how much it will cost to keep on cave diving....)

Enquiring minds want to know...

10+, BTW.

[Cindy]

I had a couple of divers that trained me state that quite a few divers make 100 dives as a goal then slack off and sort of drift away. Usually if 200 dives were reached people stay. Which would be more realistic to me as people live out of town, have accidents, family obligations, take time off etc.
I suppose I will cave dive until I break a hip climbing into a sink hole etc. Then I can really do some fun stuff like work on the museum more. There is so much more to learn.

[DA Aquamaster]

Since Skip is the psychologist (and not just of cave fish) why is this? Is it that cave divers, as "risk-seekers" as we have been called, we naturally have a shorter "attention span" and must shift around between "high-risk" endeavors to stay interested? Or is it something else?I started in my profession as a psychologist and counselor and it's hard to move away from that perspective. People who do not know me well, regard me as a risk taker as I am continually pushing the evelope at work in order to promote improvement in my organization and in the field in general.

However those who really know me, know that I am in fact very much into self control and risk management. I take what others perceive as "risks" and push the envelope but I only do so in situations where I possess a high degree of expereince or expertise, where I am confident I am "right" and where the cost benefit analysis supports the risk taken. It is very much a concept of "calculated risk" where the potential benefits far exceed the potential costs and the potnetial costs are something you can indeed afford to pay if you fail.

Those traits lend themselves well to cave diving. As a person in the 3-5 year category, I am a relative newby despite a couple decades of technical diving prior to caving. Both my personality and recognition that there is a lot I do not know often put me at odds with cave divers with more aggressive risk taking personalities or higher levels of confidence that change their impression (correct or otherwise) of the risks being taken as our priorities in cave divng are different.

I do tend to get bored in jobs that offer little challenge and once I master a position I quickly get bored and move on - usually up rather than across. And to some degree that could be true in cave diving, but then there is also an awful lot still to learn and I don't see the 5 year mark as being at all magical in that regard. More importantly, cave diving is sufficient to focus me solely on diving during the dive and as such is both fully engaging and very relaxing and that tends to be true on routine dives as well as on pinnacle dives, as you can always enjoy the continual pursuit of perfection even in a non challenging tourist cave.

Over the long term, I suspect divers attracted to diving who are risk takers and enjoy the adrenaline rush, will either remove themselves from the sport by seeking ever greater risks as they habituate to less challenging conditions until they finally bite off more than they can chew and get hurt or dead, or they will get bored and move on to something else that provides a faster or better fix.

I would guess that the majority of divers in the 10+ crowd are divers who are not risk takers, but rather "risk managers" who regard an adrenaline rush while diving as a clear indicator that they probably just screwed up. For divers in that group, I suspect the appeal is the relaxation that comes from conducting a well planned and controlled dive with no surprises and near perfection even under demanding conditions.

[rchrds]

I didn't say why people quit, I hear all sorts of excuses- the most popular being, I had a kid, and now my wife (husband) wont let me dive. 100 cave dives, abe davis? Sure. Sounds like a good excuse to me.

:)

J

P.S. and I agree with DA's statements above.

[FW]

I never think of cavediving as risky. I have done some risky things, like racing motocross, and hang gliding, but the most dangerous thing about cavediving is driving to the cave.

[skip]

We did a bit of personality research awhile back on scuba divers and cave divers. DA Aquamaster summarized our findings nicely. Cave divers tend to be somewhat lower in thrill-seeking than scuba divers (both well above the general population). The interesting difference was that cave divers tend to have higher self-esteem and a very high degree of impulse-control. They also tend to be inventive, creative. It's unusual to find abnormally high impulse control AND abnormally high thrill-seeking tendencies in the same person. This, I think, is the controlled-risk, or risk management idea expressed by DA Aquamaster (and FW).

I suspect there are scuba divers who get into cave diving for the thrill-seeking aspect, but who are also a bit implusive and these probably don't last long - they may even be the primary group of students and newbies who race through the cave, ignore cave-etiquitte, violate conservation, etc. They may constitute the five-year or less group.

On a personal note, but one I think many of us can relate to, I too am like DA Aquamaster - His post was like something I could have posted! I'm the one at work developing new ways of doing things, pushing the envelope, getting called to the principle's office (things don't always go as planned out there on the edge!), and although most everyone around me thinks I am a risk-taking thrill-seeking adrenaline junkie, I am way more into reducing risk, going cautiously into new situations, planning things down to the smallest detail, and having back-ups for back-ups!

-skip

[Spd 135]

I never think of cavediving as risky. I have done some risky things, like racing motocross, and hang gliding, but the most dangerous thing about cavediving is driving to the cave.

I very much agree with you Forrest. If I want adrenaline, work will cover it. I like the idea of getting away from everyone into clear water and beautiful rock. I started in 99 with Pat Watson and then Cave in 02 with Lamar Hires. I have never looked back. Like Rob N and Mat, "off the beaten path" has some great stuff and that never gets old.

[sskasser]

I had a couple of divers that trained me state that quite a few divers make 100 dives as a goal then slack off and sort of drift away. Usually if 200 dives were reached people stay. Which would be more realistic to me as people live out of town, have accidents, family obligations, take time off etc.
I suppose I will cave dive until I break a hip climbing into a sink hole etc. Then I can really do some fun stuff like work on the museum more. There is so much more to learn.

Woo hoo! I guess y'all are stuck with me, then! Buwahahahaha!

[Slüdge]

Forrest... every time I see him some place everyone else is standing around talking and he's diving.

Unless he's diving with me. Then he's complaining, "Will you stop standing around talking and let's go diving!"

[ssmdive]

Skip,

Looking at the frequency of 3-5 vs 6-10, and assuming a constant entry rate over the period, the hypothesis looks to probably be correct. However, given the high number OVER 10, it seems that if you get to 10, you pretty much never leave. It'd be nice to use a hazard rate model with annual numbers - 1,2,3, etc - rather than censored data, but I bet a fancy model would give the same result.

Therre's a selection bias problem of course - this could mean that they leave boards after 5 years rather than that they stop diving.

OK, hijack over, y'all can go back to talking about how old Forrest is... :)

We did this same type of research in skydiving. What we found was the average "life span" of an active skydiver was 3 years or 300 jumps. If a skydiver made it over 10 years we figured they would stick around.

The reasons people quit:

1. They had what they perceived to be a close call and that removed the "I'm bullet proof" mentality. The close call could have been as simple as a main parachute malfunction, or something really dangerous like a low canopy collision. In either case the perceived danger shook them into realizing that they could get hurt/killed.

2. They saw a person die, or a friend died. In both cases the same thought process happens. They see or feel the fatality first hand and they go through the process explained in #1.

3. Family issues. We have a joke that when a guy gets married to a "whuffo" (A person who when you say you skydive asks "What for?") we start giving him offers for his gear.

4. Once you get to a certain level... It can be difficult to go past that level. So other activities/hobbies start to give you that rush and are more exciting and you tend to go to them. I have seen this in many sports/hobbies. In martial arts it was the blue belt... They have some skill and land some good hits/takedowns , but not nearly as good as red belts. Most people quit at blue belt. In skydiving it is around 300-500 jumps where you have some skills, but not enough to get invited on the good loads. For caving, I am assuming that it hits those that only do the "tourist caves"... They get sick of the traffic jams and rude behavior just to see the same things over and over.

I know I am a #4.
1. I have had many close calls and they don't really bother me.

2. I have seen friends die and been a first responder many times. (Only one bothered me... His son wanted to meet and talk about the accident and I did it to help bring closure to the family).

3. I married a skydiver.... Twice. And the second one I gave her SCUBA lessons for her Bday.

[SDHussey]

DA Aquamaster's assessment (both self and group) applies to myself likewise. If I sought thrills, I would have probably become a much better skateboarder. Because of my age (31), many of my friends skated. Lacking coordination, understanding the inherent risks and physics of skating, and having a high payoff vis-a-vis pain avoidance comprehension, I mostly quit skating after the first broken bone.

That said, I did not stop seeking challenges or what others called "adventures." I have backpacked Southeast Asia, China, and Central America while living in foreign countries as a English teacher. I have gone skydiving and bungee jumping on several occassions. I have own motorcycles both overseas and here (I do not see this as inherently risky). Yet, until I started diving and then cave diving, I did not find a sport/recreation that fit my personality. Cave Diving and the cave community fits my personality well. Risk management, serenity, communing with the natural environment, and mostly reserved community externally. What has prevented me from having more time or certifications is my age and graduate school. Cave Diving is not for the faint of wallet and my life-style does not bode well with making money. That said, I am about to marry my dive-buddy so I plan on continuing to dive for some time. Besides - Slow and steady - the hare got bored, the turtle won.

[Slüdge]

understanding the inherent risks and physics of skating

Go to my Facebook page (Russell Edge) and you'll see a video of me hitting almost 30mph on Rollerblades with a Doberman pinscher on a leash. Apparently I haven't learned "the inherent risks and physics."

[skip]

Go to my Facebook page (Russell Edge) and you'll see a video of me hitting almost 30mph on Rollerblades with a Doberman pinscher on a leash. Apparently I haven't learned "the inherent risks and physics."

our new puppy, a golden retriever, is getting big and strong and is pulling me about 35mph on the soles of my tennis shoes! I bought a skateboard to save the tennis shoes, but maybe rollerblades would be more fun! I don't want to know the physics; at my age they can't be good.

hmmm.

-skip

[sskasser]

our new puppy, a golden retriever, is getting big and strong and is pulling me about 35mph on the soles of my tennis shoes! I bought a skateboard to save the tennis shoes, but maybe rollerblades would be more fun! I don't want to know the physics; at my age they can't be good.

hmmm.

-skip

OMG! The memories! A golden retriever and bicycle is a bad combination! Mine was easily distracted and took me out one day when something caught his attention on the other side of me. I miss that big dumb sweetie!

[SDHussey]

Sadly, the yorkie I inherited with the future-wife poorly compares to my childhood boxer in rollerblade mushing. Thou the little bugger tries ...

If I want cheap thrills on my own wheels I'll draft trucks on my road cannondale.

[argyris]

Cave diving since 1992 without any Sabbatical. #4 indeed.

[Bob Cree]

And to come into compliance with no sabatical included...5 continuous years in the early 80's, 1 year off - 1 more year on, whoops, they now required cards...so a long term sabbatical having to put up with snowy New York and no cave diving :( - that was really tough...then 5 continuous years now after hooking up with some pretty good folks down in NFL...so total just over 10, and so many cards I can't possibly keep up with them all...

Whether the early ones "count" or not, is immaterial - I can definitely say that I missed cave diving, and got back into it when the opportunity presented itself. Once in my blood, it never went away.

But I tell you, what a tremendous difference you notice coming back to it from a long break. The caves are quite changed from what they were 25 years ago. I remember keeping my eye out for this particular place where I had a bit of a "come to Jesus" moment back when, and it took me four of the last five years of passing it to realize where it was...and it isn't just the cave - its as much the quality of the aquifer - I just didn't recognize the place. I feel priveledged to have seen it.

[Brian Kakuk]

Started cave diving in 89. Have had one 60 day break to dive in plastic caves in Romania with Wes Skiles and Jill Heinerth on the set of "The Cave" (very bad monster movie). Longest time out of the caves other than that was 14 days. Still not burned out. Hope I never am!

Safe diving,
Brian

[skip]

The poll so far seems to show fewer divers in the 6-10 year range than the up to 5 and beyond 10. some support for the idea that 5 years is a turning point.

so for those beyond 5-years, what is it that keeps you diving? How many still do most of their dives in Florida gold-line caves? And if so, how many are doing the charted jumps, circuits, etc.? what I'm wondering is if the group that keeps on going has indeed found "something more" in cave diving...instructor? exploring virgin caves? move to exotic places for different kinds of caves? taking it slow and learning every little piece of florida caves (maybe adding new line, repairing old line, scootering for longer dives further in)?

-skip

[FW]

The poll so far seems to show fewer divers in the 6-10 year range than the up to 5 and beyond 10. some support for the idea that 5 years is a turning point.

so for those beyond 5-years, what is it that keeps you diving? How many still do most of their dives in Florida gold-line caves? And if so, how many are doing the charted jumps, circuits, etc.? what I'm wondering is if the group that keeps on going has indeed found "something more" in cave diving...instructor? exploring virgin caves? move to exotic places for different kinds of caves? taking it slow and learning every little piece of florida caves (maybe adding new line, repairing old line, scootering for longer dives further in)?

-skip
All of the above :-D

[MORGAN]

All of the above :-D

And mentoring newbies like me!

Mike

[LCF]

I got my first cave cert three years ago, and I'm still going strong . . . but then, I mostly dive in Mexico :)

I think there are people who set themselves goals -- they are going to get cave certified, they are going to scooter in caves, they are going to do projects. Once they achieve their goals, they look around and say, "What do I do now?" I'm watching some people I know who I fear are doing this.

Me? I dive in caves because they are magical. I'm not ambitious, and although the idea of putting new line in a cave is alluring, it's also probably not in my future. What IS in my future is many trips into well-known and less-known cave, just to marvel at where we are and how amazing it is that we are there at all.

I fully expect that, barring medical misfortune, I could revisit this thread in 7 years and say I'm still at it.

[argyris]

The poll so far seems to show fewer divers in the 6-10 year range than the up to 5 and beyond 10. some support for the idea that 5 years is a turning point.

so for those beyond 5-years, what is it that keeps you diving? How many still do most of their dives in Florida gold-line caves? And if so, how many are doing the charted jumps, circuits, etc.? what I'm wondering is if the group that keeps on going has indeed found "something more" in cave diving...instructor? exploring virgin caves? move to exotic places for different kinds of caves? taking it slow and learning every little piece of florida caves (maybe adding new line, repairing old line, scootering for longer dives further in)?

-skip

All of the above, but mostly teaching safe cave diving.

[bletso]

I would guess that the majority of divers in the 10+ crowd are divers who are not risk takers, but rather "risk managers" who regard an adrenaline rush while diving as a clear indicator that they probably just screwed up. For divers in that group, I suspect the appeal is the relaxation that comes from conducting a well planned and controlled dive with no surprises and near perfection even under demanding conditions.

You may just have a point. I know from my perspective I don't think I am a risk taker. I don't dive even in OW if everything isn't working 100%. But everyone else, including my cave diving wife think I am a risk taker.

I do risky dives, at least from other's POV, but I always like to make sure the cards are stacked in my favor. That doesn't mean Murphy hasn't tried to show me whose boss on occasion.

Safe Diving

Dale

[MORGAN]

I dive in caves because they are magical. I'm not ambitious, and although the idea of putting new line in a cave is alluring, it's also probably not in my future. What IS in my future is many trips into well-known and less-known cave, just to marvel at where we are and how amazing it is that we are there at all.


That's just how I feel. I've been full cave for 3.5 years, and see no end to it as long as my health and finances will allow.

I do know quite a few people who are subject to enthusiasms - doing something fairly seriously for a short time and then moving on to the next new thing. I tend to stick with things. Diving is my most recent and short-term endeavor - only been doing that for 10 years.

Mike

[rchrds]

so for those beyond 5-years, what is it that keeps you diving? How many still do most of their dives in Florida gold-line caves? And if so, how many are doing the charted jumps, circuits, etc.? what I'm wondering is if the group that keeps on going has indeed found "something more" in cave diving...

-skip

Survey and exploration for me- I try very hard not to go back to the Florida tourist caves (i haven't been in Ginnie in over 10 years) and I honestly didn't enjoy diving the tourist caves in Q-Roo with no purpose other than touristing around. I really like working dives- and nothing beats laying line. Fortunately that happens a lot around here. I also find that when I get in a mood where I don't feel like cave diving, i can go dry caving hard for a few months, and then I tend to flip back to cave diving. Not sure why. Chrissy (the wife) is the other way around- I think she uses cave diving to center her dry caving.

Jason

[RN]

The poll so far seems to show fewer divers in the 6-10 year range than the up to 5 and beyond 10. some support for the idea that 5 years is a turning point.

so for those beyond 5-years, what is it that keeps you diving? How many still do most of their dives in Florida gold-line caves? And if so, how many are doing the charted jumps, circuits, etc.? what I'm wondering is if the group that keeps on going has indeed found "something more" in cave diving...instructor? exploring virgin caves? move to exotic places for different kinds of caves? taking it slow and learning every little piece of florida caves (maybe adding new line, repairing old line, scootering for longer dives further in)?

-skip

The only time I dive gold line passage anymore is when I teach or to get to the passage I really want to dive. A lot of the diving I do is in passage that's not on any of the public maps. I'm sure there are some people who have at least rough maps of some of these passages, but I haven't seen them. And I really don't want to see them. A big part of it for me is exploring these areas and producing my own map. I have also put line in virgin passage. Not as much as some others, but it's just a start. There's a lot more to come because there's still a lot more virgin passage out there.

Uh, never mind, no there isn't... ;)

[FW]

Uh, never mind, no there isn't... ;)

Don't worry, 97% of today's cave divers wouldn't even go into a virgin passage :-D

And no Cindy, I am NOT talking about you! :yawinkle:

[cmalinowski]

That's just how I feel. I've been full cave for 3.5 years, and see no end to it as long as my health and finances will allow.

I do know quite a few people who are subject to enthusiasms - doing something fairly seriously for a short time and then moving on to the next new thing. I tend to stick with things. Diving is my most recent and short-term endeavor - only been doing that for 10 years.

MikeI think that's the ADD in ADHD. People will go hard at something they like with great focus, but once they feel there isn't really any dramatic challenge left they'll get bored with it.

If you put that in the scuba diving realm, people will move up through the classes and focus on the technicalities of diving and naturally more advanced diving. But at some point they don't feel there is enough juice (learning) resulting from the squeeze (time, effort, cost) and will move on.

At least that's my theory. I don't think it's a bad thing at all and didn't mean it if it sounded that way.

Chris

[sskasser]

Just at 3 years in cave diving, and 200+ cave dives post-training, and there are still SO many different caves, different sections of caves, different cave buddies, different configurations, and different dive objectives, that I can't see running out of "stuff" to do in caves in the next hundred years, even if I hit the lottery tomorrow and get to start diving every day! Throw in my love for wreck diving, teaching, spearfishing, and my new GEM, and I'll be waterlogged for life. :smt040

[ssmdive]

Funniest thing is no one really ever plans on quitting. It just happens.

I know people that SWORE they would never quit skydiving.... Yet I have not seen them in years at the DZ. And I'd bet the long time divers could produce a significant list of ex-cave divers.

And there is almost no way to know who will quit or stay.... Except time.

[Webmaster]

It isn't true, I have been cavediving for over 40 years :-D

I think the key phrase there may be "unless they find something more to do than "simply" dive the known florida caves"

[Webmaster]

I think that's the ADD in ADHD. People will go hard at something they like with great focus, but once they feel there isn't really any dramatic challenge left they'll get bored with it.

If you put that in the scuba diving realm, people will move up through the classes and focus on the technicalities of diving and naturally more advanced diving. But at some point they don't feel there is enough juice (learning) resulting from the squeeze (time, effort, cost) and will move on.

At least that's my theory. I don't think it's a bad thing at all and didn't mean it if it sounded that way.

Chris

We all get burned out on certain things at times. This is why it's good to have a number of different interests. When you feel one is becoming 'not so fun', let it fade back a little and concentrate on something else for a while.

Chances are, if you really love it, at some point you'll find a renewed interest and want to go all gung ho again.

Even within a sport like caving, there are many different areas of interest. Sometimes you just have to say WTH and try something different.

[FW]

I think the key phrase there may be "unless they find something more to do than "simply" dive the known florida caves"
If you change "known" to "popular" I would agree. There are a *LOT* of known FL caves that nobody ever visits. Many of them have potential for expansion, but the people that only dive the popular ones don't even go look.

[DA Aquamaster]

If you change "known" to "popular" I would agree. There are a *LOT* of known FL caves that nobody ever visits. Many of them have potential for expansion, but the people that only dive the popular ones don't even go look.Personally, I take every opportunity to dive somewhere new. However, many "known" caves are not "known" to the general cave diving population.

Marci and I will be down in N FL April 3-9 and would welcome any opportunity to be introduced to less known and less visited caves.

[FW]

Personally, I take every opportunity to dive somewhere new. However, many "known" caves are not "known" to the general cave diving population.

Marci and I will be down in N FL April 3-9 and would welcome any opportunity to be introduced to less known and less visited caves.
PM me an email address ;)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Personally, I take every opportunity to dive somewhere new. However, many "known" caves are not "known" to the general cave diving population.

Marci and I will be down in N FL April 3-9 and would welcome any opportunity to be introduced to less known and less visited caves.

The internet is at your fingertips, there's a ton of info already on the lesser known places flying about online.

[FW]

The internet is at your fingertips, there's a ton of info already on the lesser known places flying about online.
tampadiving.com is a good start. A good clue is sites that have recent condition reports. If there are none, the sites may be difficult to access. Some may have landowner issues, others need a boat, etc. If you aren't willing to gamble, then you may as well stick with the popular pay-as-you-go sites :-D

[SuPrBuGmAn]

If there are none, the sites may be difficult to access. Some may have landowner issues, others need a boat, etc.

I think some people don't post reports just so the sites aren't 'outted'.


If you aren't willing to gamble, then you may as well stick with the popular pay-as-you-go sites :-D

The saving grace for those willing to put the time in.

[DA Aquamaster]

tampadiving.com is a good start. A good clue is sites that have recent condition reports. If there are none, the sites may be difficult to access. Some may have landowner issues, others need a boat, etc. If you aren't willing to gamble, then you may as well stick with the popular pay-as-you-go sites :-DI usually post reports there on the way home from a trip (aircards are great), but I've noted it is underutilized as it's not uncommon to see few reports in the last few months.


The internet is at your fingertips, there's a ton of info already on the lesser known places flying about online.It's not quite like learning to dive on the internet, but it's close.

Going with someone/or getting detailed instructions from a real person helps in terms of finding the sites, accessing the sites and getting information on line conditions, locations, what to expect, etc.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Going with someone/or getting detailed instructions from a real person helps in terms of finding the sites, accessing the sites and getting information on line conditions, locations, what to expect, etc.

If you want it all handed to you, stick to the parks.


If you don't have time to waste, enjoy the adventure of going to see for yourself(possibly nothing), and the hassle of possibly having to run your own line(as the lesser dived sites can be expected to have broken lines, and ill placed line, or none at all - but I haven't been that lucky yet); stick to the "known by the general cave diving population" caves.


Its nothing at all like diving on the internet, when you're ready to get your hands dirty, you may find that out ;)

[LiteHedded]

If you want it all handed to you, stick to the parks.


If you don't have time to waste, enjoy the adventure of going to see for yourself(possibly nothing), and the hassle of possibly having to run your own line(as the lesser dived sites can be expected to have broken lines, and ill placed line, or none at all - but I haven't been that lucky yet); stick to the "known by the general cave diving population" caves.


Its nothing at all like diving on the internet, when you're ready to get your hands dirty, you may find that out ;)

I just browse google earth and hop in anything blue

[SuPrBuGmAn]

It can work! :)

If its blue, its probably shallow, go for black.

[LiteHedded]

It can work! :)

If its blue, its probably shallow, go for black.
shallow or deep. don't make no nevermind to me

[sskasser]

I just browse google earth and hop in anything blue

Blue Water Wuss! :smt081

[SuPrBuGmAn]

shallow or deep. don't make no nevermind to me

touche :D

[LiteHedded]

I've been in some nastier ones too! :P that's gotta give me some street cred

I was gonna say anything wet but I thought better of it

[SuPrBuGmAn]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/12/14/633963668093378430-StreetCredit.jpg

Sorry, that was corny :/

[RN]

Going with someone/or getting detailed instructions from a real person helps in terms of finding the sites, accessing the sites and getting information on line conditions, locations, what to expect, etc.

I never post site reports on the out of the way, rarely dived sites. I rarely even talk about them. I've found that when I was talking about them, word somehow got around and it became a more popular site. Apparently, there isn't the courtesy of staying out of passage that's being worked by someone else any more.

Maybe I shouldn't post this, but I will anyway. I also usually dive those off the beaten path sites solo and have very little information about them before going, mainly because no one has been in them for so long. But that's the diving I want to do.

[tflaris]

Almost 5 years. Crap that means I have to find a new hobby.

[phillip1]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/12/14/633963668093378430-StreetCredit.jpg

Sorry, that was corny :/

:rollguy

That picture is EPIC!!!!

[BabyDuck]

i'm also in the 'no time to waste' camp with out-of-the-norm spots. i'd love to see some, but with less than two weeks or so a year to cave dive, i can't 'afford' the possible loss of a dive day or two scouting springs.

so thank you, forrest, for the pm offer!

[SuPrBuGmAn]

A little research online goes a long way, obviously everything isn't online, but there's alot there to get you started.