Does Devil's make people rude??

[RN]

I was over diving Devil's last week for several days doing a co-teach. It's always nice to get back there every now and then and see a different cave than the ones I'm used to diving on a regular basis. A couple of things really bothered me while diving there, though.

First, it was upsetting to see OW checkout dives being done in the Eye. This is a huge disservice to the new divers. Sure, they get their 20' of depth (when they drop their depth gauges to the sand) to get checked off on their skills, but there is no where in that spring to do a tour. The agency standards I'm familiar with all state the dives must be done 20' or deeper for 15 minutes or more. Unless these instructors are counting a swim around the Eye as the tour, which is BS, they are violating standards. Okay, that rant over. Now for the real one...

The first couple of days there were during the week and a little on the chilly side, so we didn't see many other divers in the cave. That changed on Friday and Saturday, though. What also changed was the courtesy and following of rules that should have been established during training. I have always been taught, and teach, exiting divers have the right of way. Over those 2 days, we passed 3 separate teams as we were exiting that just barreled their way on into the cave! Our students did that once during the course and a long discussion about this followed. Then they have it happen to them 3 more times. I know it was busy and crowded and people just want to get in to start their dive, or they're trying to get as far back as they can before they hit their turn pressure, but complete disregard for exiting teams is not the way to behave. Hell, the flow wasn't even that bad last week! I hate to say this, but Devil's is the only place I've ever encountered this. Is there something about that system that does that to divers?!?

[LiteHedded]

I think it's just the volume of divers ginnie gets combined with the restrictive bits right at the front of the cave.

[netmage]

I was over diving Devil's last week for several days doing a co-teach. It's always nice to get back there every now and then and see a different cave than the ones I'm used to diving on a regular basis. A couple of things really bothered me while diving there, though.
...
The first couple of days there were during the week and a little on the chilly side, so we didn't see many other divers in the cave. That changed on Friday and Saturday, though. What also changed was the courtesy and following of rules that should have been established during training. I have always been taught, and teach, exiting divers have the right of way. Over those 2 days, we passed 3 separate teams as we were exiting that just barreled their way on into the cave! Our students did that once during the course and a long discussion about this followed. Then they have it happen to them 3 more times. I know it was busy and crowded and people just want to get in to start their dive, or they're trying to get as far back as they can before they hit their turn pressure, but complete disregard for exiting teams is not the way to behave. Hell, the flow wasn't even that bad last week! I hate to say this, but Devil's is the only place I've ever encountered this. Is there something about that system that does that to divers?!?

Saturday (3/6) was about the worst I've ever seen.

The parking lot was not terribly crowded, but we did have probably 3 teams entering at the same time, and I think 2 teams exiting, we tried to make the best of the situation.

What ended up happening, could only have looked like a major CF to anyone observing.

We entered the ear, the other two entered the eye.
I *think* we hit the gallery first and were a little slow making it to the ceiling, and the team behind us diving wet played frogger leaping over me; I'm sure I nailed a guy in the face w/ my frog kick... Sorry pal...

I think we ran into a exiting team in the Gallery. A tunnel wide enough to 'give way' to egressing team. What happened next was a major CF, as we hit the park bench. Our plan was to make the bone line jump, and we found a class pulling their spool. I assume a class, as I saw a lone computer lit up hiding on the ceiling... :) As a team of 3, one tucked in to the side, and two of us held on the upstream side, as another team was right behind us, and the passage to the keyhole is cramped single file. We let them pull, trying to stay out of the way then placed our own; which unfortunately for a new drysuit diver; resulted in a little knee plant into the rock. I think we had a logjam of 4 teams caught up right there with a limited choke point leading into the park bench compounding the CF.

-Tim

[Tegg]

Lots of new holes in cavediving...

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Comon Rob, I can be a hole and I've never dived the cave at Devils Ear/Eye in my life(and don't want to - for reasons being found in this thread and more)!

[diveconjeff]

Rob

We were over at the Roost next to you on Sat. I came over and introduced my self (Jeff).

Not surprisingly, we were having the exact same conversation amongst ourselves as we decided to hold several times on exit to avoid a "head-on".

Not really surprising that the people you are most likely to run into in that situation are the people you would want to run into the least...

Saw some very "creative" line work coming out of the eye that dive as well.

[netmage]

Saw some very "creative" line work coming out of the eye that dive as well.

ns....

When will people learn to not bisect major cross sections of the cave....

[ntheath]

I was over diving Devil's last week for several days doing a co-teach. It's always nice to get back there every now and then and see a different cave than the ones I'm used to diving on a regular basis. A couple of things really bothered me while diving there, though.

First, it was upsetting to see OW checkout dives being done in the Eye. This is a huge disservice to the new divers. Sure, they get their 20' of depth (when they drop their depth gauges to the sand) to get checked off on their skills, but there is no where in that spring to do a tour. The agency standards I'm familiar with all state the dives must be done 20' or deeper for 15 minutes or more. Unless these instructors are counting a swim around the Eye as the tour, which is BS, they are violating standards. Okay, that rant over. Now for the real one...

The first couple of days there were during the week and a little on the chilly side, so we didn't see many other divers in the cave. That changed on Friday and Saturday, though. What also changed was the courtesy and following of rules that should have been established during training. I have always been taught, and teach, exiting divers have the right of way. Over those 2 days, we passed 3 separate teams as we were exiting that just barreled their way on into the cave! Our students did that once during the course and a long discussion about this followed. Then they have it happen to them 3 more times. I know it was busy and crowded and people just want to get in to start their dive, or they're trying to get as far back as they can before they hit their turn pressure, but complete disregard for exiting teams is not the way to behave. Hell, the flow wasn't even that bad last week! I hate to say this, but Devil's is the only place I've ever encountered this. Is there something about that system that does that to divers?!?

The same thing happened to myself and my buddy on our first dive to Little River as intro divers. We were exiting and untying our reel from the mainline when were just barreled over by a team of 4-5 (or maybe two teams bunched together??). A couple of them were nearly vertical in the water column and were so intent on getting in that they failed to notice that they had snagged our line on one of their fins. I had to literally swim back in after the diver to get our line off her fin. Maybe I should have just pulled real hard until she noticed but either way I don't think this behavior is isolated to Ginnie.

[ssmdive]

I was with Tim and the mess at the bench was terrible. We tried to get out of the way and let the class clear but there was also a team on our ass that went right past us on the main line....

We did encounter an exiting team in the gallery, but we moved right and they were on the other wall so we just passed by each other with a smile and a wave.

The worst I have ever seen was a team of 4 divers all just hanging out at the lips. They would not go and would not get out of the way. We just sat behind them waiting and waiting and waiting. I should have taken the bypass, but I thought they would go on any min.

[OFG-1]

Well, ole Flip always said that the devil made him do it!

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm a little confused how a team pulling a reel at the parkbench would cause all that much trouble. You can always run a line on the righthand side of the parkbench to get around them. The team behind you in the cornflakes could have taken a shortcut on the left to get past everything, but that way only works if you aren't carrying stages or scooters and you aren't too fat.

I have only a few times been annoyed at divers in devil's getting in my way. But, I know the cave there pretty well, and it's usually not an issue to slip around someone. Usually, I dive at night to avoid the traffic, because it can get ridiculous during the day.

[aainslie]

I'm a little confused how a team pulling a reel at the parkbench would cause all that much trouble. You can always run a line on the righthand side of the parkbench to get around them. The team behind you in the cornflakes could have taken a shortcut on the left to get past everything, but that way only works if you aren't carrying stages or scooters and you aren't too fat.

I have only a few times been annoyed at divers in devil's getting in my way. But, I know the cave there pretty well, and it's usually not an issue to slip around someone. Usually, I dive at night to avoid the traffic, because it can get ridiculous during the day.

...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying... :)

I must admit that I've been yelled at - appropriately - for being an ass on entry, essentially pushing my way past another team and separating them in the process. A big part is that when you don't have a lot of experience it really feels like hours are passing as you wait for an opportunity, whne really it's 3 or 4 minutes at best. It's really not a big deal to hang back.

That said... it IS interesting to consider WHY we have this protocol of letting exiting divers have the right of way. In most occasions, they have built up gigantic gas reserves and can afford to wait while others pass. When exiting, as soon as I see incoming lights I invariably tuck up somewhere near the ceiling and signal entering divers to come past when I'm exiting, as I know they're more goal-driven than I am, and if swimming, they're puffing and panting while I'm swanning along loving the drift. It's quite fun to turn your light out and see if they even spot you.

I wonder if we shouldn't change the protocol to:

- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem with offering is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

[WEPIV]

ns....

When will people learn to not bisect major cross sections of the cave....

When they are taught this, understand and practice it....

[Tegg]

...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying... :)

I must admit that I've been yelled at - appropriately - for being an ass on entry, essentially pushing my way past another team and separating them in the process. A big part is that when you don't have a lot of experience it really feels like hours are passing as you wait for an opportunity, whne really it's 3 or 4 minutes at best. It's really not a big deal to hang back.

That said... it IS interesting to consider WHY we have this protocol of letting exiting divers have the right of way. In most occasions, they have built up gigantic gas reserves and can afford to wait while others pass. When exiting, as soon as I see incoming lights I invariably tuck up somewhere near the ceiling and signal entering divers to come past when exiting, as I know they're more goal-driven than I am, and if swimming, they're puffing and panting while I'm swanning along loving the drift. It's quite fun to turn your light out and see if they even spot you! I wonder if we shouldnt change the protocol to:

- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

Why change the rules to something more "complex" (requires actual communication or actual review of the other team), when the "simple" rule isn't followed?

The rules for cavediving are meant to be simple. Allowing the exiting divers right of way has never been an issue for me, or my buddies when we dive. Then again, this isn't much of an issue when one dives caves where there are not many other dive teams to exit the cave...

[netmage]

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

Yea, at times I've tucked aside, shined the light on my hand, and waved them thru... All depends on the passage I suppose.... It's like driving on a single lane path in the mud... Someone has to tuck to the side, and if its easier for all of us, when I know someone is coming; might as well...

[Slüdge]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.

My instructor insisted on two things: one hundred open water dives, and the ability to demonstrate awareness underwater, before he would take someone as a cavern student.

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.

[sea2summit]

I think a lot of the problem last week may have been from so few other sites open. I dove Wed-Thr and it seemed like 2 out of 3 teams where students and as soon as you got past the 400 jump you didn't see anyone.

Funny story one instructor decided to do a line drill in the eye and ran his line strait across the exit...talk about lack of cave etiquette. I had time left at 20' so I watched and was glad I didn't have to cut it when I decided to exit.

[netmage]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)


No, most just have one of 3 prerequisites...

Cash, Check, or Credit Card...

:)

[jj1987]

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.
To my knowledge, only 2 training agencies require a course that teaches basic technical skills before you can start cave training. I think the thought here is that we'll drag them in a cavern to teach basic skills that could be taught in OW. But then again if we required students to have "basic skills", we'd see arguing over which ones are needed, even a very simple and fundamental one such as a back kick was heavily argued about over on TDS.

There's a re-breather instructor who often uses peacock for training that allowed students to KNEEL at the crossover tunnel to tie in a jump spool during my apprentice course with Jeff Bauer. That same instructor has had courses in the mill pond area as well as Madison blue which I've heard about later on having the same issues. His name appears on several maps, and he's an old timer, so I doubt anything will be done about it....and that's at the CCR Cave level, we're not talking cavern here! It's bad enough that there was a thread over on another forum where people were discussing how EVERYONE knows exactly who you're talking about when you mention a re-breather cave course that was silting the place out, but nothing is ever done.


...or better still, not run a line... it's pretty hard to get lost there with a yellow line a foot or two away and the current howling towards the exit... just saying... :)
Frankly I don't think the line is nearly as important on these jumps as every team member dropping a cookie on the exit side of where the jump reel is tied in, so each buddy knows if their teammate has gotten further than the jump in the case of buddy separation. For me visual jumps seem like a foot on a banana peel while standing beside my own grave...I'm pretty sure I have good balance but don't want to PROVE it when SHTF. Admittedly however, so as not to look like I'm BS'ing my own safety stance, I don't run a primary at Ginnie, so I'm OK with adults making adult decisions, but I can think of one dive at Ginnie in the past year where someone was deathly wrong.



- Divers entering a system should have right of way, EXCEPT when an obvious emergency is under way. This includes sharing air, missing lights, a light waved rapidly, or any other sign of duress. IF THIS OCCURS, the entering diver/s should get out the way immediately and offer assistance.

I understand, the problem with offering is that a lot of those incidents involve instruction. But boy, wouldn't it be a shame to finish your dive and find out that one of the people who came past you died OOG? An instructor could point out to an entering party that it's a drill by signalling OK clearly with their light.

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?
I think exiting divers should always have the right away, but when they're shielding their lights and stopped, it's pretty clear they're "motioning me on". I've encountered this several times, and I do it myself. It's especially the case when I'm coming back from a dive where I've racked up a lot of deco and start slowing my ascent at 50ft, I don't want to make divers wait around for me in the eye while i take my sweet time....plus with 2 stages and a deco bottle, it's MUCH easier to simply move aside at my convenience than trying to squeeze by an entering team wherever they choose to stop for me.

Here's my suggestions-
1- Enter the ear, exit the eye. Run a green line into the ear from OW, run a red line out of the cave to open water via the eye. This way we knew red = exit, green = enter. The color system is working so well with the DPV rule, why not expand on it? :smt102 (joking here...kinda, but entering the ear and exiting the eye would solve a LOT, run 2 gold lines and have them meet)
2- If you hear a scooter behind you as you're both entering, get off to the side of the cave....the flow is less here anyways, and it's where you SHOULD be swimming. The DPV divers can deal with the flow easier, so give them the high flow area. It's not that hard to hear them, and if they're already speed matched with their buddy, it's a PITA to go off/on the throttle for 15 minutes in a cave this large....
3- When exiting, if you're not in an emergency, wave the other team on, or get as far over as possible to make it clear they're welcome to pass you. Especially in Ginnie, you should have huge gas reserves anyways.
4- At popular jumps in Ginnie, there's PLENTY of room to place jump lines AROUND the exiting team, you shouldn't have to be held up by an exiting team. PLEASE secure your lines to the floor or somehow keep them low. No need to make a spider web to catch divers in...thin white line is tricky to see when you're exiting at >200fpm!

If people would get IN the flow on exit / get OUT of the flow on entrance as well as exit the eye / enter the ear, 99% of these issues are avoided.

[FW]

First, it was upsetting to see OW checkout dives being done in the Eye. This is a huge disservice to the new divers. Sure, they get their 20' of depth (when they drop their depth gauges to the sand) to get checked off on their skills, but there is no where in that spring to do a tour. The agency standards I'm familiar with all state the dives must be done 20' or deeper for 15 minutes or more. Unless these instructors are counting a swim around the Eye as the tour, which is BS, they are violating standards. Okay, that rant over. Now for the real one...

At least they don't allow OW checkouts *inside* the cave, like they once did. In 1978, I sent a letter to all the OW training agencies, pointing out that their instructors were using Ginnie (aka the Ballroom) for OW training. Dennis Graver (PADI training director) responded by sending out a definition of an OW checkout site. The first requirement that it was *OW*, and not overhead. He also said an OW diive site had to be "considerably larger than a swimming pool".

[ssmdive]

I'm a little confused how a team pulling a reel at the parkbench would cause all that much trouble. You can always run a line on the righthand side of the parkbench to get around them. The team behind you in the cornflakes could have taken a shortcut on the left to get past everything, but that way only works if you aren't carrying stages or scooters and you aren't too fat.

.

Speaking as one of the people there in this situation I can tell you that there was a reel already on the far right and what we are assuming is a class had two people pulling the reel and at least one hovering above them watching. There was no room, so we cleared the area as best we could and calmly waited for the class to clear before we put in our reel.

So basically you had a team of three pulling one reel, a team of three waiting to put in a reel there, and a team of (four?) waiting to pass on through the main line.

All in all, a non issue IMO. Our team of three waited till the students pulled their reel and cleared, and the incoming team went over all of us to continue on the main line. No big deal, but I am not the original poster and we don't even know if this is one of the situations he was discussing.

On our way out, we had a team of two on scoots blast right by us and actually go *between* people in our group.... that was a little rude IMO and hard to blame on the "new guys".

As for changing the rules.... Bad idea. If it is not followed now, why make it more complicated?

[jj1987]

On our way out, we had a team of two on scoots blast right by us and actually go *between* people in our group.... that was a little rude IMO and hard to blame on the "new guys".
Question here-- were you spread out in the cave where they had no room to pass? Did you move over when you heard them coming? When they cut through the middle, did they hurry through so as not to cause any more distraction than needed?

I used to have a bad habit of running jump lines directly to the jump (easy to swim above, not so easy to scooter above if you don't see it far in advance and aren't expecting it), and didn't realize what this does to a DPV diver exiting at 200fpm (ish) until it was pointed out to me in full cave. I don't think this is "rude" but rather something that's not taught well at all levels of cave training (dealing with other divers). I've noticed that swimming divers get very upset with DPV's, but don't do a whole lot to work with them. I used to get upset over the same thing, but now I'm learning that there's 2 sides to that coin.

I think a lot of the "rudeness" seen at Devils has to do with divers having tremendous flow either in their face or at their back, and feel "hurried" to make decisions. I really don't see it as intentional in most cases.

FWIW I've seen the EXACT problem with hikers joggers and bikers on nature trails. Typically bikers/joggers will yell "on right", the hikers will move to the left and the bikers pass on the right.

[JahJahwarrior]

On our way out, we had a team of two on scoots blast right by us and actually go *between* people in our group.... that was a little rude IMO and hard to blame on the "new guys".



With DPV's exiting, you have two possible rules to implement, with different outcomes.

1. Boating rules. Powered craft are more manueverable and lose the right of way. DPV pilots need to realize that swimmers cannot move as fast, and give right of way to the swimmers.

2. Exiting Team/current cave rules. Whoever is exiting faster has the right of way. DPV pilots are exiting fastest, and swimmers need to give up the right of way to the DPV pilots.


On the way in, it's impossible to apply the exiting diver rule. Also, the boating rule doesn't always work perfectly. DPV's when not running make a diver much slower and are a hassle. Then, the DPV diver becomes the less manueverable craft, and the non-dpv divers lose the right of way. Of course, as soon as the trigger is pulled, the swimmers regain right of way...

In general, I've never had a problem with other divers on scooters, and I don't think other divers have ever felt that I was a problem.

[LiteHedded]

With DPV's exiting, you have two possible rules to implement, with different outcomes.

1. Boating rules. Powered craft are more manueverable and lose the right of way. DPV pilots need to realize that swimmers cannot move as fast, and give right of way to the swimmers.

2. Exiting Team/current cave rules. Whoever is exiting faster has the right of way. DPV pilots are exiting fastest, and swimmers need to give up the right of way to the DPV pilots.


On the way in, it's impossible to apply the exiting diver rule. Also, the boating rule doesn't always work perfectly. DPV's when not running make a diver much slower and are a hassle. Then, the DPV diver becomes the less manueverable craft, and the non-dpv divers lose the right of way. Of course, as soon as the trigger is pulled, the swimmers regain right of way...

In general, I've never had a problem with other divers on scooters, and I don't think other divers have ever felt that I was a problem.

agreed.
I just let exiting divers pass. whether scootering or on open circuit. it's not rocket surgery

[jj1987]

With DPV's exiting, you have two possible rules to implement, with different outcomes.

1. Boating rules. Powered craft are more manueverable and lose the right of way. DPV pilots need to realize that swimmers cannot move as fast, and give right of way to the swimmers.

2. Exiting Team/current cave rules. Whoever is exiting faster has the right of way. DPV pilots are exiting fastest, and swimmers need to give up the right of way to the DPV pilots.


On the way in, it's impossible to apply the exiting diver rule. Also, the boating rule doesn't always work perfectly. DPV's when not running make a diver much slower and are a hassle. Then, the DPV diver becomes the less manueverable craft, and the non-dpv divers lose the right of way. Of course, as soon as the trigger is pulled, the swimmers regain right of way...

In general, I've never had a problem with other divers on scooters, and I don't think other divers have ever felt that I was a problem.
I think this is over thinking this one....

When diving 1/3rds, you NEED to exit at the same speed you entered, or faster. DPV divers are typically using a somewhat modified version of 1/3rds, reserving enough gas to either swim out, or share air while towing out. They simply cannot get held up behind a team who decides to bring 2 stages and spend 4 hours in the first 1000ft of the cave. I've done a 2 hour dive in Ginnie where I never got to the maple leaf, but clearly scooter divers can't wait for me under these circumstances. Just like at peacock, if a team has an entering rate of 75fpm swimming, they need to exit at that speed or faster, and simply cannot get held up by a team swimming 35fpm (with room to wiggle here obviously since we don't cut reserves THAT thin).

When possible, the fastest team IMO should be given the opportunity to pass. In Ginnie it's possible almost anywhere in the cave except the first 500ish feet, some of the jumps, and around the heinkle.

To be honest, this whole exiting diver thing seems to get blown up online, but it's rarely caused me more than a 2 minute delay when a team breaks this rule. I'm not sure that's worth causing such a fuss over...

[Benthic]

<snip>
The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.
<snip>

:clapper:clapper:clapper

I think you're right on the money here. The vast majority of problems, whether it's etiquette, poorly run lines, or needless damage to floors and walls in large passage can be attributed to poorly skilled divers. One has to wonder who allowed divers with such poor skills to become certified cave divers to begin with.

Brian

[ssmdive]

Question here-- were you spread out in the cave where they had no room to pass?

A bit of a gap but nothing silly. But, the outbound team having the ROW should not cease to exist when the inbound team has scooters.


When they cut through the middle, did they hurry through so as not to cause any more distraction than needed?

So you are saying it is OK to be rude if you do it quickly?


I've noticed that swimming divers get very upset with DPV's, but don't do a whole lot to work with them.

Well, I don't get upset by them... But it does seem that scooter drivers seem to think since they have speed they should have the right of way. Again not a big deal till they *force* it.


I think a lot of the "rudeness" seen at Devils has to do with divers having tremendous flow either in their face or at their back, and feel "hurried" to make decisions. I really don't see it as intentional in most cases.

I think it has more to do with some people don't mind certain things and others get all worked up over the same issue.

For example, if I am pulling a reel and you want to jump over me to continue on the main line... That's fine by me. Others might think it was rude as hell to skip over a guy and you should wait till he is clear.

The guys that buzzed us... didn't really bother me. I only brought it up to show it is not just new folks that can be perceived as rude and breaking basic rules.

[Tegg]

:clapper:clapper:clapper

I think you're right on the money here. The vast majority of problems, whether it's etiquette, poorly run lines, or needless damage to floors and walls in large passage can be attributed to poorly skilled divers. One has to wonder who allowed divers with such poor skills to become certified cave divers to begin with.

Brian

When I see these types of problems in the cave, I usually look for the opportunity to ask them who their instructor is... most times when I get a name I am "not surprised", but lately I have been more and more surprised at the instructor names associated with cavedivers who seem to have the problems mentioned... Seems like the "bar" has been moving down, and a lot of instructors are simply "going with the flow"...

[ssmdive]

With DPV's exiting, you have two possible rules to implement, with different outcomes.



We were on the way out... they were on the way in.

[Gene Powell]

At least they don't allow OW checkouts *inside* the cave, like they once did. In 1978, I sent a letter to all the OW training agencies, pointing out that their instructors were using Ginnie (aka the Ballroom) for OW training. Dennis Graver (PADI training director) responded by sending out a definition of an OW checkout site. The first requirement that it was *OW*, and not overhead. He also said an OW diive site had to be "considerably larger than a swimming pool".

Hey! I resemble that remark! I dove there with my ow class in 75. They wouldn't let us go very far though, and only took a couple of us in there at a time. Hell I'd already been in there anyways!
FWIW. as long as there is money to be made, there will be deficiencies. There will also be an effort to encourage people to cave dive. The result will be caves crowded with people who aren't necessarily passionate about cave systems. Oh! and just because a diver is on a scooter, it doesn't mean he's not a new cave diver!

[ARY]

Lets blow up July - it will make a nice entrance.

[Meister481]

I've had 2 occasions of being held up upon exit at Ginnie. One of the reasons I rarely go there. It makes no sense at all, with the proper situational awareness you will know when you are coming up to another team. The lights will tell you they are coming and you normally have plenty of time to find a hole to hide in. I realize it's tough to hide in a chimney area like the back of JB's or peacock's cavern, but you should check for divers before you commit to entering.

If you encounter a class doing skills, many instructors like the chaos associated with a passing team, others don't. I apologized for passing Ken P's students at the rear of the breakdown area at JB and he encouraged me to not allow the students more room while they were doing drills. That made me smile. Work them hard in real world environments, task load them, distract them and teach them how to succeed. Awesome.

The lead diver is the person responsible for making sure his team allows the exiting divers to pass. He/she should signal his/her team in advance to ensure one of the team is not hung out where a diver cannot pass. I always wave as well. A little good will goes a long way.

I've seen 2 scootering teams almost crash into each other at LR, I could see that becoming a big deal quick if you are trying to exit quickly to keep the deco down. But on a busy day those turns can get you.

I still say it's a breakdown in training, teaching to minimum standards is not doing students, caves or anyone else a favor. The mask prints, hand prints and kick marks seen throughout peacock should be a testament to the fact that training is lacking. The fact that exiting teams are being run over is just more proof that either the team needs a stern talking to to remind them, or they weren't taught proper etiquette in the first place. Performing a skill once cannot lead to mastery. Maybe they were lucky the first time. Train the diver to their personal skill level and give them the rating they deserve at the end of the class.

[Leg of Salmon]

I used to have a bad habit of running jump lines directly to the jump (easy to swim above, not so easy to scooter above if you don't see it far in advance and aren't expecting it), and didn't realize what this does to a DPV diver exiting at 200fpm (ish) until it was pointed out to me in full cave. I don't think this is "rude" but rather something that's not taught well at all levels of cave training (dealing with other divers).

James

Could you explain this a little more please? I am a noob trying to picture what you mean.

Thanks
Chris

[jj1987]

James

Could you explain this a little more please? I am a noob trying to picture what you mean.

Thanks
Chris
For instance, when the line you're jumping OFF of is up high, against the wall, ON to a line that's low, it creates this in the cave-
(assume that the solid red line is a jump, dotted is the "placed" line, and goldline is the primary you're jumping off of)
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4720/imagetno.jpg

The Hill 400 is a semi-good example. If you run directly across the cave, it can mess up scooter teams, although the line is a bit too low there to really cause problems...you get the idea though. There's more good examples in Little River where this can be an issue. If wasn't mentioned a whole lot by Jeff in Apprentice, but Rich really hammered it home, I'm guessing because Rich scooters pretty often. It's an issue while swimming, but scooters are heading out of Ginnie in some areas at speeds of 200-225fpm. The other thing to consider is that scooter divers don't want to be directly behind each other like swimming teams because propwash from the lead diver can substantially slow down the trailing diver, so they're just naturally more spread out in the cave.

[Leg of Salmon]

Got it! Thanks.

[amphipod06]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.

My instructor insisted on two things: one hundred open water dives, and the ability to demonstrate awareness underwater, before he would take someone as a cavern student.

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.

Spot on Russell!!!

A couple of times I have been left with my mouth open when other teams thank us after the dive for being so corteous (following etiquette)... I am very surprised because that is exactly what we ALL are suposed to do and it should be part of everyday cave diving, not the exception.

At Ginnie it's become so common I do not expect anyone to yield anymore when we are exiting. I just hang out out of the way while they trample on (the CCR helps to be patient...) but it is still annoying.

The cave agencies should be more critical of their instructors and what is really being taught than just paying lip service and pocketing whatever money.

It seems to me that if cave divers were taught what they are supposed to be taught and actually met the criteria for passing their courses we would not have such a problem with fin marks, hand prints, etiquette issues,and overall piss poor skills...

OK, off the soapbox...

Dive safe and remember to wave like the queen, not a tourist. ;-)

Celia

[Line Squirrel]

Spot on Russell!!!



X2 + Celia's comments :smt086

[mfascuba]

I got stalled behind a couple of guys entering the eye in December. They were running a line, I figured, how long can it take? 12 minutes later they were still in the chute putzing around with the line - I took off to the ear and got into the cave. Oh, my drysuit was leaking thru the inflator valve. So on exit I come out the eye, this is about a half hour later, and I run into the same two guys, messing with the reel and completely blocking the chute again. This time I was not as polite - I flashed my light and exited around and between them. Some times people need to learn to get out of the middle of the street.

I was taught to be polite and yield to exiting divers. I'm pretty aware of my surroundings and will do those if at all possible. I have been overtaken by divers when exiting - if someone is in that much of a hurry I'll move aside - they must need to exit. I got caught in a mexican standoff in the room under the chute in the eye once - I had a stop at 40 that I was trying to get to, there was a team ahead of me with one diver at 30 and one at 50, bracketing the chute. I had loads of gas, they waved me on, I held and waited for them to clear. No worries.

Mark

[aainslie]

IT's so nice to have a rebreather when these CF's occur in the ear - you can just park off and watch without worrying about gas :)

I see that nobody likes my idea. Fair enough. I'd still suggest in general, volunteering to give way when exiting. It's that "do unto others" thing - you know that it's a courtesy that you'd like when you're in a rush coming in. So if you have tons of gas and just a couple of minutes before you're in the ear, sit somewhere inconspicuous and watch them come by. By the time you're at the lips, in the ear or in the eye, it's even beginning to help your decompression, so why not?

And if you're reeling in a line, at least be aware of people waiting to come in. I once had a guy in the Eye who was reeling in... and then STOPPED at a restriction in about 30-40 feet depth for a few minutes to deco... while I watched him, waiting to get by. I had a similar stunt pulled on me at one of the Marianna holes. I was on a rebreather both times so it was no biggie, but I would have been pissed if I was OC. For God's sake, think about your deco and plan your stops so they're in a place where people can get by!

[netmage]

And if you're reeling in a line, at least be aware of people waiting to come in. I once had a guy in the Eye who was reeling in... and then STOPPED at a restriction in about 30-40 feet depth for a few minutes to deco... while I watched him, waiting to get by. I had a similar stunt pulled on me at one of the Marianna holes. I was on a rebreather both times so it was no biggie, but I would have been pissed if I was OC. For God's sake, think about your deco and plan your stops so they're in a place where people can get by!

I'll admit - I've done that a time or two... Deco'ing out, rather spacing out, taking my time inching up from 60'... Totally oblivious to the team behind me heading up the eye. A tap on the leg, and I was out of their way.

In all these situations, the underlying theme, ya know, I'd hope there's a common bond amongst cave divers... ya'know, kinda like the kindred spirits amongst Jeep owners... (wranglers - nothing else...) where a kind wave is always given...

We're all learning, we never stop... It all can't be crammed into those 8 days of training. A little courtesy will always go a long way in the end.

[double humper]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.

My instructor insisted on two things: one hundred open water dives, and the ability to demonstrate awareness underwater, before he would take someone as a cavern student.

I wonder how many other instructors feel the same way.

The problems really can't be attributed to just one thing. Each diver is personally accountable for their actions. A parent who has raised their child to know right from wrong is not to blame when the child makes a bad decision.

[flyczek]

Lets blow up July - it will make a nice entrance.

I almost ruined my keyboard reading this. What a great idea! Nothing bad could possibly come of this. :D

We could mandate a circuit for every dive, color code the lines and install "you are here" signs, while we are at it.

[Dsix36]

I would like to thank the members who brought up the error of running a gap line directly from the mainline to the jump line. I had never given much thought to the problems that this could cause scooters. Granted, I am still fairly new to caves and have not done this too many times, but I know that I have done it a few times.

I will change my ways and try to make sure my lines are kept low from now on.

[WEPIV]

I would like to thank the members who brought up the error of running a gap line directly from the mainline to the jump line. I had never given much thought to the problems that this could cause scooters. Granted, I am still fairly new to caves and have not done this too many times, but I know that I have done it a few times.

I will change my ways and try to make sure my lines are kept low from now on.

This is one of the things that my cave instructor made sure I did. I love placing rocks on top of my line to keep it low and to the side, (whenever possible). If you look you'll notice that at most all of the jump areas there are rocks on the floor just for this purpose.

[fixxervi6]

I almost ruined my keyboard reading this. What a great idea! Nothing bad could possibly come of this. :D

We could mandate a circuit for every dive, color code the lines and install "you are here" signs, while we are at it.

And leave glow sticks you can break in case of emergency?

[Slüdge]

think about your deco and plan your stops so they're in a place where people can get by!

I don't see how this applies to the Devil System. Going out the Eye, there's a spot at 50' (where the exit makes a 90° left) to move to the right, completely out of everyone's way to make a Pyle Stop; at 30' there's a place to the left at the bottom of the "daylit" room that can allow half a dozen divers to deco; then the bottom of the open water well is 20'. It's as if the cave was designed for deco.

[amphipod06]

The problems really can't be attributed to just one thing. Each diver is personally accountable for their actions. A parent who has raised their child to know right from wrong is not to blame when the child makes a bad decision.

But first, the parent/instructor needs to teach the child/student this particular pearl of wisdom, no? (being accountable for one self and own actions and that actions DO have consequences, good or bad...)

Dive safe,

Celia

[amphipod06]

And leave glow sticks you can break in case of emergency?

Oh shoot, there goes the monitor again, diet coke all over it!!

Dive safe,

Celia

[divindoc]

This is one of the things that my cave instructor made sure I did. I love placing rocks on top of my line to keep it low and to the side, (whenever possible). If you look you'll notice that at most all of the jump areas there are rocks on the floor just for this purpose.

Two nice rocks to select from on the floor at the Hill 400 jump!

[Dsix36]

This is one of the things that my cave instructor made sure I did. I love placing rocks on top of my line to keep it low and to the side, (whenever possible). If you look you'll notice that at most all of the jump areas there are rocks on the floor just for this purpose.

don't get me wrong. My instructor taught me this too. I just never put it in context of jump lines but rather when running the primary into the cave.

Hill 400 is where I am guilty.

[Line Squirrel]

(Let's see how many people I can offend.)

The problems here can be attributed to one thing: cave diving instructors teaching and passing people who are not ready to be cave divers.



Absolutely agree Russell but in addition I've been wondering for awhile now if we don't look further up the food chain and start to bring into question the instructor trainers? Are they cutting loose sub-par instructors? I'm not pointing fingers at any particular agency or individual, just putting the question out there for discussion.

[DA Aquamaster]

don't get me wrong. My instructor taught me this too. I just never put it in context of jump lines but rather when running the primary into the cave.

Hill 400 is where I am guilty.Good line placement (primary, gaps or jumps) is one of those things you will take pride in doing well - or at least you should, as it is obvious many cave divers don't. And not to nit pick, but if it was an apprentice or full cave class, your instructor should have made that point clear regarding jump lines as well through both demonstration and expectation that you are able to do it well.

-----

That is one reason that it can take a class longer than normal to place a jump line - the class will do it wrong, it gets pointed out and then becomes a teaching moment as they learn to do it correctly. And that long term pay off in diver quality is one reaon to be a bit patient with classes when entering behind one since most divers would probably rather be delayed on one dive the students make rather than be inconvienced by every dive the student subsequentoly makes.

-----

The exiting diver has the ROW rule is simple and it needs to stay that way. It is true that in the real world, the exiting diver is massively fat on gas, especially in a high flow cave, but the rule is intended for those situations where the exiting diver may be critically short on gas. In the event an exiting team is short on gas and passes an entering team I am confident they will be highly motivated to get the entering teams attention with no need for formal protcols. Any expectation that the entering team has that the exiting teams should not have the ROW would just confuse the issue at a critcal moment.

Besides cave diving should be about safety, not about swimming or scootering a couple minutes deeper into the system. It's just a cave dive, and regardless of whatever your ego is telling you, it is not going to cure cancer or result in some other equally great benefit to the public and western civlization will not crumble into ruin if you don't push your personal best a little farther into the system.

----

Deco obligations create other complications. For an OC diver with no stage or a single stage at Ginnie, the deco obligation on exit is often where it was planned to be and a 4-5 minute delay during exit can put the team as a whole off its deco plan failry significantly. At the other extreme, CCR and multi stage divers may be using the cave from the cornflakes outbound to manage their ascent rate. Each approach has an entirely different set of preferences on exit - one motivated to get to a 20 ft stop fairly quickly to reduce the overall ascent time and the other already chilling out on deep stops and slow ascent rates to prevent bubble formation.

The answer to that issue is to still grant the exiting teams the ROW, but it then also depends on the exiting team to be courteous and demonstrate adequate SA to anticipate an entering or faster exiting team's need to get past and take advantage of suitbale spots in the cave to facilitate an entering team getting by or to allow a faster exiting team to play through.

I can't think of many cases, other than being rapidly overtaken by a scooter where an attentive diver is going to be "surprised" and is unbale to take full advantage of strategic locations to efficiently deal with oncoming or passing divers. if they fail to do so it is an SA issues as much as a ROW or courtesy issue.

In short, it calls for courtesy, common sense and solid SA, not changes to the current rules.

----

One of the early posts mentioned 3 teams getting in the water at the same time. Even if multiple team are stacked up on the steps, it makes sense to communicate between teams and stagger the start times by 3-5 minutes to allow some spacing between teams. That conversation can also help sort out who has scooters, students, existing primary lines or other factors that may make it clear which team will be moving faster and consequently may be a better choice to enter first.

But what I suspect often happens is that multiple teams all start attempting to be "first" to beat the traffic so to speak, and when that occurs, problems are almost certain to develop in the cave. In that regard, all teams involved share the responsibility for the lack of predive communication and coordination and you can't just sit back and ***** about a lack of courtesy without also considering your role in the evolution of events.

[DA Aquamaster]

Absolutely agree Russell but in addition I've been wondering for awhile now if we don't look further up the food chain and start to bring into question the instructor trainers? Are they cutting loose sub-par instructors? I'm not pointing fingers at any particular agency or individual, just putting the question out there for discussion.I agree. Some instructors really suck and it makes you question the people who trained them and certified them to become instructors.

I'd take it one level higher though and start asking why agencies allow those instructors that suck to continue to be instructors. I'd hope the whole industry is about more than just competition and fear that an agency with higher expectations will start losing instuctors to agencies with less stringent expectations.

[FW]

I agree. Some instructors really suck and it makes you question the people who trained them and certified them to become instructors.

I'd take it one level higher though and start asking why agencies allow those instructors that suck to continue to be instructors. I'd hope the whole industry is about more than just competition and fear that an agency with higher expectations will start losing instuctors to agencies with less stringent expectations.
The best approach is report bad instructors to their agency. Chances are nobody has ever complained about them. It may take more than one complaint, because of the chances of "sour grapes".

[Gene Powell]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!:smt102

[amphipod06]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!:smt102

I think that if you really dig, you may find a PADI specialty that covers that, 25 dives and $25 will get you an instructor card from them...<sarcastic>

Dive safe,

Celia

PS and don't forget to include a recent 2x2 photo of yourself...for the card...

[FW]

I've got it!!! I can't believe we missed this! We need a courtesy certification! Everybody knows that it doesn't matter how much knowledge, experience, or ability you have, it's useless without a card! Maybe this is a conspiracy by instructors to cause an outcry that will result in a requirement for a "courtesy card"!:smt102
And would you call that a "C-Card"? :rollguy

[Serota]

To address these "problems":

1) When YOU encounter students or new divers or anyone else struggling with a line or doing a drill where YOU think they shouldn't, try to remember that not too long ago YOU were doing the same thing or something equally annoying. If YOU are as masterful as YOU think, YOU should be able to find a solution that lets YOU proceed on your way without loosing too much time toward your goal-oriented objective.

2) Accept that Ginnie is a major training site and that if you dive there, you will encounter students and often times lots of divers that may in some regard delay and/or offend you.

3) Be flexible and skilled enough to deal with whatever situations you may encounter including those involving other divers.

4) Stop trying to find someone to blame for these minor inconveniences, such as instructors and their students, who are simply trying to learn and do their job in the best way possible.

These suggestions are intended to address items that may be considered as inconveniences and annoying, and not truly dangerous actions.

[sskasser]

To address these "problems":

1) When YOU encounter students or new divers or anyone else struggling with a line or doing a drill where YOU think they shouldn't, try to remember that not too long ago YOU were doing the same thing or something equally annoying. If YOU are as masterful as YOU think, YOU should be able to find a solution that lets YOU proceed on your way without loosing too much time toward your goal-oriented objective.

2) Accept that Ginnie is a major training site and that if you dive there, you will encounter students and often times lots of divers that may in some regard delay and/or offend you.

3) Be flexible and skilled enough to deal with whatever situations you may encounter including those involving other divers.

4) Stop trying to find someone to blame for these minor inconveniences, such as instructors and their students, who are simply trying to learn and do their job in the best way possible.

These suggestions are intended to address items that may be considered as inconveniences and annoying, and not truly dangerous actions.

:clapper Well said.

[ARY]

Ok, ok after 5 th page I'm gonna try to be polite now. You finally convinced me.

[Cave Ranger]

Well suffice it to say that my days of trying to dive any of the most popular sites on a weekend or holiday are over. Quiet weekdays only from now on. I dive to get away from the rat race. Too often places like Ginnie are all rat race.
Like almost everything else in this modern society it boils down to too many people, jammed into too small a space, competing for limited resources. I think you can connect almost all forms of incivility (road rage, concert stampedes, cabbage patch doll & soccer riots, etc) to this fact. There are more people cave diving now than ever before and there will be more next year and so on. I don't see the problem of rudeness or inconciderate behavior going away. I just do my durndest to not be a part of the problem but I'm sure that I've probably irritated somebody, for some reason, somewhere.

[Line Squirrel]

Like almost everything else in this modern society it boils down to too many people, jammed into too small a space, competing for limited resources. I think you can connect almost all forms of incivility (road rage, concert stampedes, cabbage patch doll & soccer riots, etc) to this fact.

Very true. It's funny, I've really gotten into the salt water fishing in a big way since I moved to South Florida, even on a fishing forum now and the complaining is exactly the same....rude fishermen, newbies not knowing what their doing messing it up for the rest, too many fishermen, the weekends are too busy, too many tourists with rental rods, yadda yadda yadda.

The parallels are incredible.

[sskasser]

Very true. It's funny, I've really gotten into the salt water fishing in a big way since I moved to South Florida, even on a fishing forum now and the complaining is exactly the same....rude fishermen, newbies not knowing what their doing messing it up for the rest, too many fishermen, the weekends are too busy, too many tourists with rental rods, yadda yadda yadda.

The parallels are incredible.

Just goes to show how easy it is to forget where we've come from, how much we've learned, and that none of us were born the amazingly skilled and perfectly honed divers/fishermen/drivers/nose-pickers that we are today! Hell, even if *that guy* is a complete moron/asswipe, if I just assume he's new, learning, and just didn't mean to (insert stupid act here), then I end my dive/fishing trip/drive in a much better frame of mind, instead of fuming and kicking kittens.

[OFG-1]

........ instead of fuming and kicking kittens.

But if you punt them just right they make a funny sound and always land on their feet!

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object2/1822/38/n2479291035_5015.jpg

[DogDiver]

Very interesting reading. Lots of comments from a large portion of divers here. When at Ginnie, on exit, I will frequently stop and signal entering teams to procede through. Especially around the lips area where it is much easier for me to pull aside. No issue here.

On the July Spring issue......why not "ENLARGE" the Rum Island entrance.......I'm sure Andrew could use some help in there...lol... enjoy...Ken

[Line Squirrel]

why not "ENLARGE" the Rum Island entrance.......I'm sure Andrew could use some help in there...lol... enjoy...Ken

Indeed, last time I was there I nomounted as far as I could, not very far, saw a line with an arrow but couldn't make out who's arrow. Must have been one skinny guy, or gal.

[vshearer]

But if you punt them just right they make a funny sound and always land on their feet!

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object2/1822/38/n2479291035_5015.jpg

http://www.burststudio.com/kitten.html

[ARY]

Indeed, last time I was there I nomounted as far as I could, not very far, saw a line with an arrow but couldn't make out who's arrow. Must have been one skinny guy, or gal.

What?? Line? Did it clear up yet up there ? Yawn. Have you ever heard a story on how one guy tried to crack open a limestone slab laying on a top of an entrance? Not so far from Rum BTW. He ran steel cable thru and pulled w/pickup truck. The slab however won the game and truck lost its rear end.

[aainslie]

I don't see how this applies to the Devil System. Going out the Eye, there's a spot at 50' (where the exit makes a 90° left) to move to the right, completely out of everyone's way to make a Pyle Stop; at 30' there's a place to the left at the bottom of the "daylit" room that can allow half a dozen divers to deco; then the bottom of the open water well is 20'. It's as if the cave was designed for deco.

You'd think, wouldn't you???

I was pretty frustrated with this guy.

Very interesting reading. Lots of comments from a large portion of divers here. When at Ginnie, on exit, I will frequently stop and signal entering teams to procede through. Especially around the lips area where it is much easier for me to pull aside. No issue here.

On the July Spring issue......why not "ENLARGE" the Rum Island entrance.......I'm sure Andrew could use some help in there...lol... enjoy...Ken

Too funny - that's exactly what I thought!

[LiteHedded]

You'd think, wouldn't you???

I was pretty frustrated with this guy.

I can imagine. there are places to get out of the way there literally every ten feet. that would piss me right off

[Slüdge]

You'd think, wouldn't you???

Oh, yeah. I guess we're back to Post #16.

[Michael Stroeck]

I'll bet that a lot of us do this already. Am I right? Do YOU give way to incoming groups when exiting?

I've only recently received my Full Cave card, but I started doing this during course - at least in high-flow caves. The exiting team is just gliding along, while the ingoing team is struggling. I don't see the point in insisting on ROW.

[sskasser]

I've only recently received my Full Cave card, but I started doing this during course - at least in high-flow caves. The exiting team is just gliding along, while the ingoing team is struggling. I don't see the point in insisting on ROW.

Because if you are going INTO the cave, there's obviously no emergency. If you are heading out of the cave, I have no way of knowing you aren't experiencing an issue of some sort and need to head to the surface more urgently than I need to get into the cave.

If I'm exiting slowly with no issues and see you trying to enter (or trying to pass from behind), I SHOULD move out of the way and wave you on. If I don't, shame on me. It doesn't change the fact that the exiting diver gets the ROW...because sometimes *it* does hit the fan.

[Meister481]

Because if you are going INTO the cave, there's obviously no emergency. If you are heading out of the cave, I have no way of knowing you aren't experiencing an issue of some sort and need to head to the surface more urgently than I need to get into the cave.

If I'm exiting slowly with no issues and see you trying to enter (or trying to pass from behind), I SHOULD move out of the way and wave you on. If I don't, shame on me. It doesn't change the fact that the exiting diver gets the ROW...because sometimes *it* does hit the fan.

I just cover my light and let them pass, I'd rather not kick on the way out if I don't HAVE to. I'm guilty of very slow ascents, especially in the chimney at LR. I'll tuck away and cover my light if I see another team at the top.

[sskasser]

I just cover my light and let them pass, I'd rather not kick on the way out if I don't HAVE to. I'm guilty of very slow ascents, especially in the chimney at LR. I'll tuck away and cover my light if I see another team at the top.

Oh absolutely! I do like hanging out with my light off and watching the sites, too. ;) It's amazing how many folks never notice you're there, lol.

[Cave Ranger]

Oh absolutely! I do like hanging out with my light off and watching the sites, too. ;) It's amazing how many folks never notice you're there, lol.

You keep doing that and your liable to catch me going by in my a##less neoprene dive chaps. That ain't limestone relecting your light back into your eyes either. :smt103 I'm rather pasty. :smt044

[sskasser]

You keep doing that and your liable to catch me going by in my a##less neoprene dive chaps. That ain't limestone relecting your light back into your eyes either. :smt103 I'm rather pasty. :smt044

ROFLMAO...diet coke out the nose and it's all your fault! Guess I better start bringing one of these in the cave -----> :smt079 :rollguy

[murfef]

Shirley, i had no idea!!

[Cave Ranger]

ROFLMAO...diet coke out the nose and it's all your fault! Guess I better start bringing one of these in the cave -----> :smt079 :rollguy

Yeah. I think I've contributed to the ruination of hundreds of keyboards all across the world wide web. Sorry. :smt102

[aainslie]

Yeah. I think I've contributed to the ruination of hundreds of keyboards all across the world wide web. Sorry. :smt102

Nope, I was able to re-aim my puke sideways.

[Meister481]

It's amazing how many folks never notice you're there, lol.

If they miss you, how much beautiful cave are they missing?

[amphipod06]

Nope, I was able to re-aim my puke sideways.

You sir, are very talented... ;-)

Dive safe,

Celia

[RN]

Wow! I had no idea this subject would generate so much discussion. A few clarifications...I was with the team at the Park Bench pulling the reel. I don't think anyone saw me, though, because no one has mentioned me. I was not the guy on the ceiling. I was off to the side watching the CF there. There must have been close to a dozen divers in that area at that one time. There was a team dropping stage bottles, another team trying to get past, and our team trying to exit. I considered getting in the middle of it to direct traffic. I forgot my bright orange vest, though!

That was one of the worst times over the weekend, but I'm not even counting that in the situations I mention in my original post because it was such a CF, I'm not sure who was in the wrong, if anyone!

My practice when exiting is to head over to the side and shield my light when I see entering divers. I don't even want them to see me, and they usually don't. I also teach my students to do the same thing if they are exiting with no problems.

I don't think the rule should be changed. Humans, by nature, don't respond the same way to issues. A team could be having a problem and begin their exit yet not show any outward signs of this. Stopping them to question if they are okay isn't really appropriate. They will either tell you or they won't, but they should still have the right of way.

The flow at Devil's wasn't that bad last week. I've seen it much worse. JB is much worse right now. Blaming it on the flow isn't appropriate.

I don't know if blaming instructors is appropriate or not. Maybe I've had a different experience, but in the 7 internships I have completed over the past couple of years or so to get all of my cave instructor ratings, I have seen pretty high quality instruction. Granted, there are a lot more instructors out there than that, but I find it difficult to believe that I just got lucky enough to choose 7 instructors that are in the minority. This seems to be more of a case of cave divers not giving a crap about anyone but themselves and just wanting to get their dive done. In part, I put the blame on the increase in non-local cave divers. It's not all non-local cave divers that do this, but I've seen a lot of non-locals come into town, do their first dive a couple of hours after a 8-12 hour long drive, and plan that dive to be a staged scooter dive with multiple jumps and Ts. What ever happened to doing an acclimation dive after being away from the caves for a few months and easing back into it slowly???

[scubagrunt]

wow, looks like i missed a lot of fun at ginnie on sat. EN was great!!!!

[amphipod06]

wow, looks like i missed a lot of fun at ginnie on sat. EN was great!!!!

What was the viz like where you went?

Have been reading of less than 50 ft and would hope for a bit better viz before heading that way..

Dive safe,

Celia

[scubagrunt]

What was the viz like where you went?

Have been reading of less than 50 ft and would hope for a bit better viz before heading that way..

Dive safe,

Celia
Ginnie: in the main tunnels it is 50-70 maybe a bit milky (this was on wed-fri last week, i cant speak for sat:(). the smaller and further in passages were great, not as milky at all.
mel
sorry i have been corrected! the nest was pretty okay like josh said 30 feet or so. the afternoon dive was better once the tide came up a bit.

[sea2summit]

in the main tunnels it is 50-70 maybe a bit milky (this was on wed-fri last week, i cant speak for sat:(). the smaller and further in passages were great, not as milky at all.
mel

I think she was asking about the nest Mel.
Nest was 25-35 ish...some spots where better. That was Sat/Sun

[alias]

I have one comment to this thread as a still in training cave diver. It’s about the hiding/covering/shutting of lights several of you mention. Personally, I find it confusing and I wish people weren’t doing it – at least not in narrow passages. Sure, direct/cover the light not to blind me but please don’t play hide&spook.

I always try be particularly courteous towards other divers on entry/exit because I have snotty ears that can easily transform me into a major plug especially if I have to struggle head down with current and reel in places like Eye/Ear. My task – and I truly doubt anyone’s who is struggling with their reel and progress in general - is made any easier when I think I have assessed the situation, and all of a sudden a ninja moves in the darkness. You think you are invisible but usually you are noticed in the most inconvenient moment.

It’s also annoying when I already have seen 3 divers that I wanted to wait to exit, and only 2 came out. One sneaky basterd shuts light, and now I don’t know what he is up to when he vanishes. And as if I don’t have enough performance anxiety from MY instructor concentrating on my lameness!

When we have to share the cave, I would like other divers to indicate what they are up to rather than play games where you know what is going on but I have to keep on guessing.

[flyczek]

Hide and Spook, that's pretty funny.

This reminds me of a dive I did in JB. After I gathered my O2 bottle and found a convenient place to deco, I was hanging around near the ceiling watching my computer, when out of the corner of my eye I noticed a fin. I looked up and saw that there was a recess in the cave ceiling just inches from my head and that there was a diver in there. He didn't have a light on and was not moving. When I say he wasn't moving, I mean he WASN'T MOVING. He was fixed against the ceiling, I couldn't see any bubbles and his eyes were fixed straight ahead.

I don't know if you can "jump" underwater, but he must have sensed my reaction, because right before I reached out to shake his fin to see if he was still with the living, he looked down and waved. Spooky

[ARY]

When I pee I also stay frozen - too afraid that thing will come off, and I cannot return signals at that moment either. Is it rude?

[RN]

I have one comment to this thread as a still in training cave diver. It’s about the hiding/covering/shutting of lights several of you mention. Personally, I find it confusing and I wish people weren’t doing it – at least not in narrow passages. Sure, direct/cover the light not to blind me but please don’t play hide&spook.

I always try be particularly courteous towards other divers on entry/exit because I have snotty ears that can easily transform me into a major plug especially if I have to struggle head down with current and reel in places like Eye/Ear. My task – and I truly doubt anyone’s who is struggling with their reel and progress in general - is made any easier when I think I have assessed the situation, and all of a sudden a ninja moves in the darkness. You think you are invisible but usually you are noticed in the most inconvenient moment.

It’s also annoying when I already have seen 3 divers that I wanted to wait to exit, and only 2 came out. One sneaky basterd shuts light, and now I don’t know what he is up to when he vanishes. And as if I don’t have enough performance anxiety from MY instructor concentrating on my lameness!

When we have to share the cave, I would like other divers to indicate what they are up to rather than play games where you know what is going on but I have to keep on guessing.

I don't know how anyone else does it, but I'm usually not seen at all. I don't hide if there's nowhere to hide, so you'll see me in narrow passages. And I usually hide when I first see the glow of other divers entering, way before I even see them or their lights. I also don't move until after they have passed. Apparently I hide well since no one mentioned seeing me at the Park Bench on Saturday... :D

[icestac]

When I pee I also stay frozen - too afraid that thing will come off, and I cannot return signals at that moment either. Is it rude?

It is when you are leading the dive... before I knew better, Sam and I would be going along at a comfortable pace when all of a sudden I would find myself swimming right up to him. Come to find out, he was taking a potty break :smt086

[alias]

When I pee I also stay frozen - too afraid that thing will come off, and I cannot return signals at that moment either. Is it rude?

I am not afraid of the thing (:D) coming off but I have to stay still too. We have a signal for it before commencing. Yet, I know couple of guys who need to hold onto something when peeing. When there is nothing to grab they will hold onto buddies. I know couple of other guys who find THAT somewhat uncomfortable, bordering on rude :smt100

[BabyDuck]

it helps me to nudge my head against a wall. that's why my hood might have some smutz, not because i rammed into something. i dunno why. next psychological poll, anyone? 'what helps you pee'?

[scububa]

... I know couple of guys who need to hold onto something when peeing. When there is nothing to grab they will hold onto buddies. ...

Nah, that's just too easy :toimonster:

[Slüdge]

Can we take this thread somewhere else? TMI!

[FW]

Can we take this thread somewhere else? TMI!
Maybe RN is right, Devil's does make people rude :smt102

[fixxervi6]

it helps me to nudge my head against a wall. that's why my hood might have some smutz, not because i rammed into something. i dunno why. next psychological poll, anyone? 'what helps you pee'?

I just have to stop swimming for a bit and at least get the process started

My buddy was the same way so we came up with a hand signal for "hold on gotta pee"

Now I just hold it until I'm either drifting with the flow, stopping to pick up or put in a reel, or dropping/picking up a stage, gives me a moment were I don't swim to get the process started.

[ssmdive]

Apparently I hide well since no one mentioned seeing me at the Park Bench on Saturday... :D

Just because it was not mentioned, does not mean no one saw you :smt002

It just means there was a bunch of other stuff to watch and discuss :garfield

[Cave Ranger]

Ya see? This is where my aforementioned A##less neoprene chaps are a Godsend. After my last dive I had several one doller bills stuffed in my belt so I must have had a ninja Shirley encounter. :rollguy

[alias]

Wondering what states you can find cavers now... What is the correct reaction if you suddenly notice someone in a crack above you - lightless, stary-eyed and otherwise motionless but headbutting the wall repeatedly...:?

[sskasser]

Ya see? This is where my aforementioned A##less neoprene chaps are a Godsend. After my last dive I had several one doller bills stuffed in my belt so I must have had a ninja Shirley encounter. :rollguy

:smt082 I'm an innocent ninja this time! I use only nickels, not dollar bills! :smt082



Wondering what states you can find cavers now... What is the correct reaction if you suddenly notice someone in a crack above you - lightless, stary-eyed and otherwise motionless but headbutting the wall repeatedly...:?

In that case, give Marci some privacy! :rollguy



it helps me to nudge my head against a wall. that's why my hood might have some smutz, not because i rammed into something. i dunno why. next psychological poll, anyone? 'what helps you pee'?

[FW]

I think the moral here is, If the lead diver slows down, or grabs something, stop too, or swim around them! :rollguy

[ARY]

About 6 or so yrs ago I was making my way down the steps of Troy and there were two individuals there doing some funny stuff. They were blocking my way down and not to be rude I asked what are they doing. They said something like S-drill. I have to tell you that at that time I've just settled in US after a long way from USSR. So I said them "Let me just pass you guys and you can keep drilling it?"

The point is - get away from steps when you are busy w/your partner(s)

[deanme]

I've seen 2 scootering teams almost crash into each other at LR, I could see that becoming a big deal quick if you are trying to exit quickly to keep the deco down. But on a busy day those turns can get you.


I was going into the cave at Ginnie one time about a year ago, and was about 100 feet shy of the entrance to Roller Coaster. The cave is very wide here, but not very tall except on the extreme right and extreme left, and even then not much more then about 4 feet.

Anyway, I was going INTO the cave and saw two dudes scootering my direction exiting the cave. I hesitated and thought about how I could get out of their way and yield, but there was simply no room, so I kept swimming and hugged the right hand side of the wall. The two scooter dudes hesitated a moment to assess the situation, and then (I’m guessing) asserted their right to exit the cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.

I guess they were angry I didn’t stop swimming? And I guess it was their right to put my life in jeopardy for my transgression? I think not.

As luck would have it, they were parked right next to me, and I wanted very much to take their scooters and crash them on the pavement. They came inches from hitting me on the head with their scooter, which could have killed me given the logistics.

Although maybe I should have stopped swimming, there is no excuse for their behavior. I know a lot of you will say, you got what you deserve, even though there really was not place for me to go, I should have stopped swimming. I have thought about this incident a lot, and have decided the next time it happens, I’m going to call the police and have the people arrested for some sort of endangerment.

Now when I see a scooter approaching me, my heart rate goes up, I stress, and I put my hand out to make sure they hit my hand instead of my head. I feel odd doing this, even bad. I’m assuming the other person will be rude, and the other person with the scooter probably thinks, what an ass, assuming I will hit him. But I’d rather be a live ass then a dead polite diver.

And although it pains me (because I really don’t like Andrew) I totally agree with him about his comment about yielding to the people on the way IN the cave, except in an emergency situation which can be easily communicated. I always yield to people swimming into the cave. When exiting, I have plenty of gas and can take my time. When diving thirds and being near the exit, we should all have plenty of gas to exit and take our time. We are NOT on a time schedule. The people entering the cave are on a time schedule and have to turn the dive when they hit thirds, so they are diving with a hard limit.

dean

[MORGAN]

it helps me to nudge my head against a wall. that's why my hood might have some smutz, not because i rammed into something. i dunno why. next psychological poll, anyone? 'what helps you pee'?

I can pee with no discernable effort or preparation anytime during a dive - while swimming, running a line, putting in or picking up a jump, or whatever. I just let 'er rip! :)

Mike

[sskasser]

<snip>next time it happens, I’m going to call the police and have the people arrested for some sort of endangerment.<snip>
dean

Please don't. Instead, just have a calm conversation with them.

We cave divers get enough grief from "the outside world" without drawing additional negative attention to ourselves. It's these kinds of incidents that cause scooters to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called, scooters must cause problems!") and cave diving to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called to handle those cave divers!").

[Slüdge]

I can pee with no discernable effort or preparation anytime during a dive - while swimming, running a line, putting in or picking up a jump, or whatever. I just let 'er rip! :)

Mike

Wow, just like a horse!

[Tegg]

Please don't. Instead, just have a calm conversation with them.

We cave divers get enough grief from "the outside world" without drawing additional negative attention to ourselves. It's these kinds of incidents that cause scooters to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called, scooters must cause problems!") and cave diving to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called to handle those cave divers!").

No worries Shirley... I don't even think they would respond to that call... :roll:

It would be like a cop responding to a "bully" on a playground... not really their top priority on the call list...

Dean, you could just simply address them and see if the issue was really what you thought, or if they meant no harm in what took place... (such as maybe they did not know they could "fit" on the other side, or they felt more comfortable being closer to the line....

Sometimes a simple and mature conversation resolves a lot of misunderstood situations...

[deanme]

Please don't. Instead, just have a calm conversation with them.

We cave divers get enough grief from "the outside world" without drawing additional negative attention to ourselves. It's these kinds of incidents that cause scooters to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called, scooters must cause problems!") and cave diving to get banned ("Well, the police had to be called to handle those cave divers!").

Good point. No one wants scooters to banned, nor cave diving.

But I would not feel comfortable approaching someone like them. I’d be afraid of their response to calm conversation, with them putting me in my place, and hit me. Keep in mind, you are a female, and females can get away with a lot when approaching a male. I don’t have that luxury.

It is kind of like small dogs and big dogs. Small dogs are totally unafraid to approach a large dog, because they have lived a life where someone protects them. Large dogs, who have been in fights are always more cautions. I have been attacked many, many times when approaching someone to calmly discuss a disagreement. It is a male form of intimidation utilized by bullies.

dean

[divindoc]

I was going into the cave at Ginnie one time about a year ago, and was about 100 feet shy of the entrance to Roller Coaster. The cave is very wide here, but not very tall except on the extreme right and extreme left, and even then not much more then about 4 feet.

Anyway, I was going INTO the cave and saw two dudes scootering my direction exiting the cave. I hesitated and thought about how I could get out of their way and yield, but there was simply no room, so I kept swimming and hugged the right hand side of the wall. The two scooter dudes hesitated a moment to assess the situation, and then (I’m guessing) asserted their right to exit the cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.

I guess they were angry I didn’t stop swimming? And I guess it was their right to put my life in jeopardy for my transgression? I think not.

As luck would have it, they were parked right next to me, and I wanted very much to take their scooters and crash them on the pavement. They came inches from hitting me on the head with their scooter, which could have killed me given the logistics.

Although maybe I should have stopped swimming, there is no excuse for their behavior. I know a lot of you will say, you got what you deserve, even though there really was not place for me to go, I should have stopped swimming. I have thought about this incident a lot, and have decided the next time it happens, I’m going to call the police and have the people arrested for some sort of endangerment.

Now when I see a scooter approaching me, my heart rate goes up, I stress, and I put my hand out to make sure they hit my hand instead of my head. I feel odd doing this, even bad. I’m assuming the other person will be rude, and the other person with the scooter probably thinks, what an ass, assuming I will hit him. But I’d rather be a live ass then a dead polite diver.

And although it pains me (because I really don’t like Andrew) I totally agree with him about his comment about yielding to the people on the way IN the cave, except in an emergency situation which can be easily communicated. I always yield to people swimming into the cave. When exiting, I have plenty of gas and can take my time. When diving thirds and being near the exit, we should all have plenty of gas to exit and take our time. We are NOT on a time schedule. The people entering the cave are on a time schedule and have to turn the dive when they hit thirds, so they are diving with a hard limit.

dean

Similar situation happened to me and my buddy last August, except it happened in the Roller Coaster tunnel. We were exiting on a swim dive and 3 scooter divers were entering the tunnel. Not only did they not yield ROW, the middle diver pointed his prop wash at the floor and silted out the entire tunnel, giving us crap vis on the exit.

It boils down to a matter of common courtesy in most instances, but a true emergency for the exiting team would make this kind of behavior lethal.

[Tegg]

Good point. No one wants scooters to banned, nor cave diving.

But I would not feel comfortable approaching someone like them. I’d be afraid of their response to calm conversation, with them putting me in my place, and hit me. Keep in mind, you are a female, and females can get away with a lot when approaching a male. I don’t have that luxury.

It is kind of like small dogs and big dogs. Small dogs are totally unafraid to approach a large dog, because they have lived a life where someone protects them. Large dogs, who have been in fights are always more cautions. I have been attacked many, many times when approaching someone to calmly discuss a disagreement. It is a male form of intimidation utilized by bullies.

dean

Seriously? I have NEVER had this issue when diving.

Coming out of a "local dive" at 3am... sure... but that's not what is going on at a dive site.

To each their own. I will always continue to simply try and have a mature conversation with those that I think have behavior to answer for in the cave...

[FW]

I was on the surface once, when a guy came out of Devil's madder than a wet hen, screaming at a scooter driver for nearly running him down. Before long, they were both screaming.

The scooter driver said, "You don't know who you are dealing with", and walked away. Pretty soon GSO security showed up, and escorted the poor guy that nearly got run over off the property.

[jj1987]

Dean,

Hopefully this will ease your fears some. My buddy AJ and I were scootering in the mud hole on campus (about zero viz), and bumped each other several times with the scooters on full pitch since we couldn't really see. It didn't even leave a bruise, but it does bump you back a few ft while the water takes on all the impact. The propeller blades (should) have clutches so that they stop when something gets caught in there, so it wont cut a body part off.

Keep in mind, a scooter is going slower than getting hit by a basketball at a local park and about the same size up front, and a lot slower than soccer balls that people bump with their heads at the park. I think calling the police over an endangerment conviction might be a bit much. Maybe call them and let them know someone was being mean, but like Tegg said, I'm not sure they would respond to that.

Landowners read these forums, I'm not sure we need to imply that there was any life threatening event here, especially not when it's that exaggerated. Kind of reminds me when everyone was gong to die in Ginnie because the viz went to 30ft during the recent exploration.

[murfef]

It is kind of like small dogs and big dogs. Small dogs are totally unafraid to approach a large dog, because they have lived a life where someone protects them.

dean

I'm not sure Shirley but I think in this instance, you're the "small dog" and we men protect you! LMAO:rollguy

[deanme]

Seriously? I have NEVER had this issue when diving.

Coming out of a "local dive" at 3am... sure... but that's not what is going on at a dive site.

To each their own. I will always continue to simply try and have a mature conversation with those that I think have behavior to answer for in the cave...

I've never been hit, but several times individuals walked over to where I was, got inches from my face and yelled at me at as loud as they could, showering me with spit as they yelled. Never at a dive site, but the perpetrators were human, male humans to be exact. And not just once. I seem to bring it out of people (I know you are doing to interpret that statement as me not being polite or calm, but I was. Respect is at the core of who I am). Bullies take advantage of whatever they can, including politeness, to gain the upper hand.

This brings back the memory of … I forget his name but he is a famous pitcher in baseball, and retired as the oldest pro baseball pitcher in history. He was telling a story of how, when he first started playing ball, he accidently hit a batter with a ball. The batter calmly walked out to him on the mound, where he thought he was going to calmly talk it over. Without warning, the batter hit this pitcher. The pitcher said he never repeated that mistake. Ever time since then, when he hit someone with the ball, and they calmly walked out to the pitchers mount, he just assumed the worst and hit first.

Guys are that way. Plus, I’m a pansy when it comes to physical fighting.

dean

[deanme]

Dean,

Hopefully this will ease your fears some. My buddy AJ and I were scootering in the mud hole on campus (about zero viz), and bumped each other several times with the scooters on full pitch since we couldn't really see. It didn't even leave a bruise, but it does bump you back a few ft while the water takes on all the impact. The propeller blades (should) have clutches so that they stop when something gets caught in there, so it wont cut a body part off.

Keep in mind, a scooter is going slower than getting hit by a basketball at a local park and about the same size up front, and a lot slower than soccer balls that people bump with their heads at the park. I think calling the police over an endangerment conviction might be a bit much. Maybe call them and let them know someone was being mean, but like Tegg said, I'm not sure they would respond to that.



Context is everything. I used to play catcher and was hit plenty of times on the playing field. Getting hit 800 feet in a cave is a different story.

I would suggest the burden to keep scooters from being banned is on those that are rude and use scooters, not on those that are innocent victims minding their own business.

dean

[LiteHedded]

sounds like nolan ryan maybe. he was a real badass

[sskasser]

I'm not sure Shirley but I think in this instance, you're the "small dog" and we men protect you! LMAO:rollguy

Indeed! Anyone who knows me knows I've spent my entire life protected...since I'm just a small dog! :rollguy


Dean, thanks for the laugh, but no thanks. I think you missed the mark on this one, bud. I've been called a female dog, but never a small dog.

[JahJahwarrior]

Obvious solution guys: Real police won't care. But, the Cave Police are there to serve and protect!

[deanme]

I was on the surface once, when a guy came out of Devil's madder than a wet hen, screaming at a scooter driver for nearly running him down. Before long, they were both screaming.

The scooter driver said, "You don't know who you are dealing with", and walked away. Pretty soon GSO security showed up, and escorted the poor guy that nearly got run over off the property.

I have a friend of a friend of a friend who sells drugs for a living. Two dudes decided to bully this guy, threatening him with reporting him to the police. After deciding these two armatures might follow through on their threats, he decided to educate them on how boundaries work.

He and a few buddies got a hold of these two dudes, took them out to some field, beat the sh__ out of them, and left them stranded without any clothes. They got the message and left the guy alone.

Another story. I saw a TV special about some crime boss. The dude was old and frail. He was walking in a parking lot, getting in his car when two teens assaulted him, took his wallet and humiliated him. Days later, the crime boss got two of his guys to pick up the teens and bring them to him, where he lectured them about respect for the elderly. You can image how the teens felt.

We seem to forget we live in a world of boundaries. Cross those boundaries, and you never know how someone will react.

dean

[deanme]

Indeed! Anyone who knows me knows I've spent my entire life protected...since I'm just a small dog! :rollguy

Dean, thanks for the laugh, but no thanks. I think you missed the mark on this one, bud. I've been called a female dog, but never a small dog.

sorry for the inference about small dog. you are indeed a female, but no small dog. in fact, i'm feeling a little, ummm... frightend about your interpretation. :smt100

Just kidding. after all, i'm friends with your brother, and if you hurt me, i'm going to have him beat YOU up. :rollguy

[deanme]

sounds like nolan ryan maybe. he was a real badass

That was the name. Nolan Ryan. Thanks for the input.

[Ben M]

dean,

maybe you should quit while you are...."ahead".

[Tegg]

dean,

maybe you should quit while you are...."ahead".

Hard to do at this point... :rollguy

[SuPrBuGmAn]

This thread rocks!

[deanme]

dean,

maybe you should quit while you are...."ahead".

Thanks Ben. Friends don't let friends drink coffee and post. :)

[aainslie]

And although it pains me (because I really don’t like Andrew)

Damn! Them's harsh words!


I have a friend of a friend of a friend who sells drugs for a living. Two dudes decided to bully this guy, threatening him with reporting him to the police. After deciding these two armatures might follow through on their threats, he decided to educate them on how boundaries work.

He and a few buddies got a hold of these two dudes, took them out to some field, beat the sh__ out of them, and left them stranded without any clothes. They got the message and left the guy alone.


Wow. That's interesting morality right there. We're to take that the drug dealer was the good guy in this story?

[BobK]

Wow. That's interesting morality right there. We're to take that the drug dealer was the good guy in this story?

Apparently. Kind of like the godfather series, where killing people really wasn't that "evil" under the various circumstances.

Seems to me, though, that if someone was continually getting jacked by various people, they might want to consider what they are doing that may be attracting such behavior. All I ever get is the occasional finger in traffic when I cut off yet another clueless driver from New York :)

[vshearer]

I have a friend of a friend of a friend who sells drugs for a living. T.

dean

It's a lot cheaper if you cut out all those middlemen.

[murfef]

hey Vance. Nice article the other day, Need to get together soon. I'll be diving with SSK this weekend but when I get back, we need to set something up.

[RN]

I think the moral here is, If the lead diver slows down, or grabs something, stop too, or swim around them! :rollguy

The main thing is don't decide to take a drink of spring water at that time...especially if you're swimming into the flow... ;)




As for the bullies out there, the Florida CCW permit is a nice thing to have...actually, the nicer thing to have is what it allows you to have. I'm not saying I would use it, but if someone tried to get in my face in a parking lot and I felt threatened...Well, they would then be waiting for the police...

[Anders Knudsen]

Anyway, I was going INTO the cave and saw two dudes scootering my direction exiting the cave. I hesitated and thought about how I could get out of their way and yield, but there was simply no room, so I kept swimming and hugged the right hand side of the wall. The two scooter dudes hesitated a moment to assess the situation, and then (I’m guessing) asserted their right to exit the cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.


In my Cave scooter class, we were taught, that whilce scootering, the rule of exciting team has the right of way, did no longer apply - swimming divers always had the right of way, no matter of you are scootering into, or out from the cave. Practically I have always just assumed that the other team just have the right of way, whenever I have encountered other divers in the caves.

Actually I always find the most annoying way of encountering other divers in a cave, is in a small tunnel, with both teams going in the same direction, and our team on scooters, catching up from behind - this way, the swimming team, dosent really know we are coming, and we have to tell them to move out of the way, or wait till there is more room in the cave - both can take far to much time.

[deanme]

In my Cave scooter class, we were taught, that whilce scootering, the rule of exciting team has the right of way, did no longer apply - swimming divers always had the right of way, no matter of you are scootering into, or out from the cave. Practically I have always just assumed that the other team just have the right of way, whenever I have encountered other divers in the caves.



Interesting. Thanks for the information.

dean

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm surprised at you all! Dean has a scooter phobia, and thinks all scooter divers are out to kill him. Rob is going to shoot anybody who comes up to critique his diving in the parking lot. And several of you can't pee unless you are holding on to something!

[Rich]

I'm surprised at you all! Dean has a scooter phobia, and thinks all scooter divers are out to kill him. Rob is going to shoot anybody who comes up to critique his diving in the parking lot. And several of you can't pee unless you are holding on to something!

LOL Mike..... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

[Line Squirrel]

And several of you can't pee unless you are holding on to something!

Well, it normally does require holding onto something. :smt102

[FW]

Well, it normally does require holding onto something. :smt102
Not while you are swimming :roll:

[Line Squirrel]

Not while you are swimming :roll:

That's my point....they can't get ahold of the usual suspect but they need to grab something lol, in this case the nearest rock.

Once I got used to it, I can do it on the fly without breaking stride. In fact, sometimes I worry about forgetting where I am and peeing my pants in the check-out lane in Publix.

[Slüdge]

Rob is going to shoot anybody who comes up to critique his diving in the parking lot.

Off the subject, but several weeks ago I was at JB and was gearing up and someone asked me about the dry cave nearby, so I grabbed my camera and we went over there. While driving home I noticed my camera case on the seat and wondered where the camera was. I didn't remember what I had done with it.

I realized I had been wearing my undergarment for the hike, so I looked in the pocket and there it was. I had made a dive with the camera and it was fine. Which got me to thinking - my little Walther PPK will fit in that pocket...

[Line Squirrel]

my little Walther PPK will fit in that pocket...

So do Kel-Tec's :wink:

[FW]

...- my little Walther PPK will fit in that pocket...
Hmmm, I can see it now, "Mister, please wait a couple minutes until I can take off my drysuit to get to the pocket in my undergarmet, so I can get out my PPK and shoot you :roll:

[Slüdge]

Hey, I used to dive Telford. And at least once there were questionable characters there when I finished the dive.

[Rich]

As for the bullies out there, the Florida CCW permit is a nice thing to have...actually, the nicer thing to have is what it allows you to have. I'm not saying I would use it, but if someone tried to get in my face in a parking lot and I felt threatened...Well, they would then be waiting for the police...


"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I would like to present Exhibit A, post #132 on the Cave Diver's Forum in the case of Florida vs Rob Neto. Obviously this young man was looking for trouble from the outset and my client.... "

Just a reminder that we might want to be careful what we post on public forums in this day and age..... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

[Slüdge]

Well, in post #132 he clearly stated, "if ... I felt threatened." That's self-defense.

I will state this publicly: If you break into my house and I have the opportunity, I will shoot you.

[MORGAN]

Once I got used to it, I can do it on the fly without breaking stride. In fact, sometimes I worry about forgetting where I am and peeing my pants in the check-out lane in Publix.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has worried about this!

Mike

[sskasser]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has worried about this!

Mike

+1 :mad:

[Rich]

Well, in post #132 he clearly stated, "if ... I felt threatened." That's self-defense.

I will state this publicly: If you break into my house and I have the opportunity, I will shoot you.

I hear you Russell and I would do exactly the same....

....but if someone takes a swing at you in the parking lot and you shoot them you're probably going to go to jail (remember you have to be in fear for your life, or see a forcible felony being committed) and if you pull out a gun for the intimidation factor, you'll go to jail for brandishing.

On another note, I just found out the other day from someone who just went through the police academy that the "castle doctrine" in FL also applies to your vehicle, so apparently you can carry in your car without a CCW. Interesting huh.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[amphipod06]

I hear you Russell and I would do exactly the same....

....but if someone takes a swing at you in the parking lot and you shoot them you're probably going to go to jail (remember you have to be in fear for your life, or see a forcible felony being committed) and if you pull out a gun for the intimidation factor, you'll go to jail for brandishing.

On another note, I just found out the other day from someone who just went through the police academy that the "castle doctrine" in FL also applies to your vehicle, so apparently you can carry in your car without a CCW. Interesting huh.....

Safe diving,

Rich

You should never point a gun unless you intend to fire (and not miss) it. That said, some of us can use the "fear for my life" a little further than others, you never know if the guy taking the swing at you has other buddies and they all intend to do you harm.

Russell, in Telford, a little Pelican case fits a Glock very easy and it's quite handy and easy to reach if there is trouble....just saying, don't ask me how I know... ;-0

If you do not know the rules and the laws concerning gun ownership and CCW, whether you have a permit or not, it would behoove you to get well acquainted. You should know your rights and responsibilities very well. You never know when you will need that knowledge and a lawyer...

Dive safe,

Celia

[jj1987]

From the "horses mouth", this will answer 99% of the questions people have and disprove the common myths-
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/ch0776.htm

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm

And someone earlier in this thread was in fear for his life because a scooter was slowly coming at him in Devil's at less than 3mph, so don't think being a drama queen is going to save you in court.

[fixxervi6]

I hear you Russell and I would do exactly the same....

....but if someone takes a swing at you in the parking lot and you shoot them you're probably going to go to jail (remember you have to be in fear for your life, or see a forcible felony being committed) and if you pull out a gun for the intimidation factor, you'll go to jail for brandishing.

On another note, I just found out the other day from someone who just went through the police academy that the "castle doctrine" in FL also applies to your vehicle, so apparently you can carry in your car without a CCW. Interesting huh.....

Safe diving,

Rich


What I taught about the entire guy swinging at you thing... how much money do you have for a lawyer, and was he a lot bigger than you or a little guy?

example, if some 350lbs roid head was on a rampage i could defend myself in court as the law here in texas states in fear for your life OR extreme bodily injury or something to that effect, they don't have to be a threat to your life for you to defend yourself in TX.

but if grandma hit me with her cain and I poped her, I'd be going to prison for it as there is no way you can defend that in court.

[Rodney Nairne]

The two scooter dudes hesitated a moment to assess the situation, and then (I’m guessing) asserted their right to exit the cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.

I guess they were angry I didn’t stop swimming? And I guess it was their right to put my life in jeopardy for my transgression? I think not.

As luck would have it, they were parked right next to me, and I wanted very much to take their scooters and crash them on the pavement. They came inches from hitting me on the head with their scooter, which could have killed me given the logistics.

I’m going to call the police and have the people arrested for some sort of endangerment.

Now when I see a scooter approaching me, my heart rate goes up, I stress, and I put my hand out to make sure they hit my hand instead of my head.

dean

I think scooter divers should give way to swimmers in any situation.

The question is, what do we do when we come across a swimmer, like Dean (who may or may not be a troll), who has a phobia and hatred against DPV's? There is nothing we can do to comfort this type of person.

There are DPV haters out there. Some even dive DPV's themselves, they just don't think anyone else is qualified to dive with them.

[amphipod06]

And someone earlier in this thread was in fear for his life because a scooter was slowly coming at him in Devil's at less than 3mph, so don't think being a drama queen is going to save you in court.

Common sense is not common....

Dive safe,

Celia

[Slüdge]

was in fear for his life because a scooter was slowly coming at him in Devil's at less than 3mph

Actually, you're the one being melodramatic. He was talking about what would happen if he went to the divers later and the other guy got violent.

[MORGAN]

I would recommend that anyone who carries a gun or keeps one in their home for self-defense read "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.

It's an excellent source of real-world information about the use of firearms for self-defense, by a law enforcement officer, shooting and self defense instructor who is also a respected authority on the use of lethal force and a frequent expert witness in lethal force court cases.
It's only 130 pages and a quick read.

Knowing some of the information in it might keep you from being charged with murder if you ever have to shoot in self-defense. Self defense situations are not always as clear-cut as they seem once they get into court.

My house and truck are equipped with firearms as well as other safety equipment such as fire extinguishers, smoke detectors, and first aid supplies. I don't think I have a handgun small enough to fit in the pocket of my drysuit undergarment, though. Maybe it's time for another trip to the gun shop! :)

Mike

PS: Scooters, rude behavior, guns, peeing... this thread has it all!

[jj1987]

Actually, you're the one being melodramatic. He was talking about what would happen if he went to the divers later and the other guy got violent.


They came inches from hitting me on the head with their scooter, which could have killed me given the logistics.

.....I guess I misunderstood.

[Bob Cree]

All I ever get is the occasional finger in traffic when I cut off yet another clueless driver from New York :)

Hey, wait a minute! - I resemble that...except I am usually the one down in Florida cutting off clueless Floridia rednecks who can't figure out how to get out of the left lane.

Guess I might want to think twice about that though - at least if it happens to be a big white van with funny red feathers on it... :)

[fixxervi6]

........... cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.

I guess they were angry I didn’t stop swimming? And I guess it was their right to put my life in jeopardy for my transgression? I think not.....................

..............which could have killed me given the logistics...........

Now when I see a scooter approaching me, my heart rate goes up, I stress.............



you say inches from you, so I guess they DIDN'T hit you? thousands of pounds of steel fly down the road in opposite directions all the time seperated by a thin yellow line, if they never touch life is good

Do we have the data on the number of cave deaths from hit and run scooters? I'd like to see that data please, this sounds like it could be serious.

I'm gonna get a blaze orange drysuit and attach strobes to me head, you can never be too careful.

[ssmdive]

....but if someone takes a swing at you in the parking lot and you shoot them you're probably going to go to jail (remember you have to be in fear for your life, or see a forcible felony being committed)
Rich

You most likely will not take any kind of ride and depending on the evidence you most likely will be no billed (provided you were not seen escalating the situation and don't act like a raving lunatic when the police show up).... In other words, very unlikely you are "going to jail".


On another note, I just found out the other day from someone who just went through the police academy that the "castle doctrine" in FL also applies to your vehicle, so apparently you can carry in your car without a CCW. Interesting huh.....

Old news... Passed in 2005.

[Dsix36]

I think that this post might have made more people than just myself rethink the way they are running jump lines. I did a dive at Ginnie yesterday and found several jumps ran differently than I have seen in the past. The jump at Hill 400 was directed down and a rock was placed on it (neon pink line). The jump at the expressway tunnel was still run directly (I think it would be hard to do this differently since the expressway line is on the ceiling). The jump to the Roller Coaster was directed downward and wrapped around a large tock to hold it.

As for the rudness factor: not existant. I was fiddleing along very slowly, rebreather lets me do that, and was overtaken by a team at the park bench. I had swam over to the line to the bone room and was just looking around when I saw another diver tieing in a reel for the jump. I just waited til there was an opening and went past him and up the mainline.

On the way out, I had to start my deco at 50'. A team was entering and I signaled them through (I was way off to the side). The lead diver signaled the OK sign and I replied with the same. It was nice of him to ask, since I was solo. The second diver was yielding to me and waiting since she had not seen my previous signal to proceed so I just signaled her again.

Everything went smoothly at all times. All divers were well mannered.

[BabyDuck]

excellent. everyone stay nice, i'm coming to visit in 3 weeks.

[LCF]

Wow. This thread has meandered just about everywhere, but I'm glad I read it, because I was never taught to think about how the line I ran would impact folks on scooters, and I've never thought about it. I've rarely seen scooters in the caves when I've been there, either in FL or in MX. It wouldn't occur to me to put a rock on my line, and the idea actually worries me a bit, since the idea is to run line I could follow in zero viz. Putting a small rock on the line may move it out of the way of a scooter diver, but if I come back in zero viz to follow it, it's going to be awfully easy to pull that line out from under a rock and have tons of slack billowing in the cave . . . which is going to be hard for me (the blind diver) to follow, and is going to be a MUCH bigger issue for the scooter folks. Anybody thought about that?

And going back to the OP -- I saw OW divers doing their checkout dives down the EAR, for God's sake, and one of their instructor/DM guys wedged into the bottom of the slot with a camera, taking pictures of them, in such a way that we had to swim under and between his legs to get in. It was a huge hazard for the cave divers, and not much of a diving experience for the students. Why do the GS folks permit this?

[K Mejean]

Wow. This thread has meandered just about everywhere, but I'm glad I read it, because I was never taught to think about how the line I ran would impact folks on scooters, and I've never thought about it. I've rarely seen scooters in the caves when I've been there, either in FL or in MX. It wouldn't occur to me to put a rock on my line, and the idea actually worries me a bit, since the idea is to run line I could follow in zero viz. Putting a small rock on the line may move it out of the way of a scooter diver, but if I come back in zero viz to follow it, it's going to be awfully easy to pull that line out from under a rock and have tons of slack billowing in the cave . . . which is going to be hard for me (the blind diver) to follow, and is going to be a MUCH bigger issue for the scooter folks. Anybody thought about that?

And going back to the OP -- I saw OW divers doing their checkout dives down the EAR, for God's sake, and one of their instructor/DM guys wedged into the bottom of the slot with a camera, taking pictures of them, in such a way that we had to swim under and between his legs to get in. It was a huge hazard for the cave divers, and not much of a diving experience for the students. Why do the GS folks permit this?


I'm still a little new at cave diving so someone with more time can correct me if I am wrong but..... If you are leaving the cave in 0 viz you are not pulling your line back in. You leave it to be retreaved at a later time. That being said you shouldn't be pulling on the line you should be OKing it. If you are OKing the line there is no reason for it to be removed from under the rock. When you get to the rock you should be able to stop and feel around for the line and then continue on.
Like I said I am still pretty new but when I run the line I tend to remember what I did with it so even though I might not know exactly where I put the rock at I do know that I placed a rock on the line to keep it out of the way. That will also help as a marker for me to have an idea where I am in the cave.

[alias]

Wow. This thread has meandered just about everywhere, but I'm glad I read it, because I was never taught to think about how the line I ran would impact folks on scooters, and I've never thought about it. I've rarely seen scooters in the caves when I've been there, either in FL or in MX. It wouldn't occur to me to put a rock on my line, and the idea actually worries me a bit, since the idea is to run line I could follow in zero viz. Putting a small rock on the line may move it out of the way of a scooter diver, but if I come back in zero viz to follow it, it's going to be awfully easy to pull that line out from under a rock and have tons of slack billowing in the cave . . . which is going to be hard for me (the blind diver) to follow, and is going to be a MUCH bigger issue for the scooter folks. Anybody thought about that?


I was thinking the same thing – even considering requesting that there would be a separate thread. One for more visibility, where non-scootery (newer) divers would be more likely to notice the pointers. Actually, I had considered generally some questions about line laying, and one thing was setting rocks on the line since this was not addressed during my courses. I, likewise, was not enlightened about taking scooter divers into account when putting down my reels.

During one of our trips, this one hairy guy seemed to be putting his line under the rocks a lot, so we asked him about it as we were worried about the slack too if having to return blind. His response was that generally, especially in tighter parts of the cave, one should not have a need to lay the line extremely tight anyway. It might actually be easier to exit blind if there is some slack on the line. You can avoid having to bang your body onto the cave that way. If the line is very tight, and you just tidy it under a rock a bit, it’s still not going to be much of an entanglement if it pops off.

I would very much like to hear more tips and pitfalls about these techniques myself, as it was a surprise to me too when I saw it done.

[DA Aquamaster]

Wow. This thread has meandered just about everywhere, but I'm glad I read it, because I was never taught to think about how the line I ran would impact folks on scooters, and I've never thought about it. I've rarely seen scooters in the caves when I've been there, either in FL or in MX. It wouldn't occur to me to put a rock on my line, and the idea actually worries me a bit, since the idea is to run line I could follow in zero viz. Putting a small rock on the line may move it out of the way of a scooter diver, but if I come back in zero viz to follow it, it's going to be awfully easy to pull that line out from under a rock and have tons of slack billowing in the cave . . . which is going to be hard for me (the blind diver) to follow, and is going to be a MUCH bigger issue for the scooter folks. Anybody thought about that?You don't have to just lay the rock on top of the line - consider putting a half or a full twist in it (much like a secondary tie off) so that the line runs to the top of the rock and then - as far as feeling the line is concerned - continues with no need to follow the line around under the rock.

Provided the rock has any kind of aspect ratio (being something other than spherical) the loop around it will stay in place and the weight of the rock will keep the line along the bottom of the passage. The ideal rock in that regard is one that is a few inches wide and several inches or more long and weighty enough to hold the line in place if it gets tugged on mildly.

You also do not have to limit yourself to just a rock. Being strategic in how you place the jump helps. Sometimes a small change in where you start the jump allows you to take advantage of a placement low on the wall before starting out across the passage can reduce or eliminate the need for a rock without greatly complicating following the line out in low/zero viz. It does not have to be exactly on/ near the double arrows.

[FW]

. . . which is going to be hard for me (the blind diver) to follow, and is going to be a MUCH bigger issue for the scooter folks....?
I think the siltout would be a bigger challenge to scooter divers at that point, than the loose line.

[fixxervi6]

depending on whats going on in the cave I also put rocks on top of my line

[LiteHedded]

depending on whats going on in the cave I also put rocks on top of my line

me too

[Cave Ranger]

depending on whats going on in the cave I also put rocks on top of my line

During my Intro through Full training, using rocks or other available cave debris to keep the line low, controlled, and out of the way was pretty standard per my instructor. Prior to that this never occured to me and I spent a lot of time over-thinking and looking around for the perfect jutting piece of limestone or cave log. I think you use what the cave gives you and I see no reason why this method would hinder a zero viz exit unless you don't properly wrap around/half hitch or use rocks that are too small for the intended purpose of keeping the line taut.

[Gene Powell]

I'm still a little new at cave diving so someone with more time can correct me if I am wrong but..... If you are leaving the cave in 0 viz you are not pulling your line back in. You leave it to be retreaved at a later time. That being said you shouldn't be pulling on the line you should be OKing it. If you are OKing the line there is no reason for it to be removed from under the rock. When you get to the rock you should be able to stop and feel around for the line and then continue on.
Like I said I am still pretty new but when I run the line I tend to remember what I did with it so even though I might not know exactly where I put the rock at I do know that I placed a rock on the line to keep it out of the way. That will also help as a marker for me to have an idea where I am in the cave.
Unless I'm in a particularly fragile area, or something is wrong, I'm pulling my reel. It's why you practice with lights out drills. Some caves might require you to place your primary in very low vis ON THE WAY IN!
FWIW, I don't see how you can blame an instructor for a former student being rude. They teach cave diving, they aren't raising children!

[scububa]

From the "horses mouth", this will answer 99% of the questions people have and disprove the common myths-
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/ch0776.htm

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm

And someone earlier in this thread was in fear for his life because a scooter was slowly coming at him in Devil's at less than 3mph, so don't think being a drama queen is going to save you in court.

The thing I found the most interesting is (in the FL reference) the issuance of permit by Dept of Agriculture. That's some serious crop control!

[MORGAN]

That's some serious crop control!

It's pest control!

Mike

[Line Squirrel]

It's pest control!

Mike

Darn Aphids

[Slüdge]

It's pest control!

Mike

How about getting the pest control guys to do something about Mike Mc's avatar? I'm going to end up ruining my new laptop if I keep swatting the screen.

(Yes, after a year I'm still doing it.)

[MORGAN]

How about getting the pest control guys to do something about Mike Mc's avatar? I'm going to end up ruining my new laptop if I keep swatting the screen.

(Yes, after a year I'm still doing it.)

LOL - I sprayed my computer with DDT, but it didn't seem to help!

Aren't you moderators the CDF pest control guys?

Mike

[RN]

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering with a response, but a few of you have made assumptions based on an intentionally vague statement. To clarify things, I will let you know the guns I own and carry were my service weapons from the years I spent as a police officer. I am very well aware of the gun laws and self-defense. Anyone who has met me and knows me knows I'm one of the most non-confrontational people around. I'm not one to invoke the castle rule. I couldn't care less about property. But threaten my life or the life of someone I know...

Nuff said.

[Benthic]

I would recommend that anyone who carries a gun or keeps one in their home for self-defense read "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.

It's an excellent source of real-world information about the use of firearms for self-defense, by a law enforcement officer, shooting and self defense instructor who is also a respected authority on the use of lethal force and a frequent expert witness in lethal force court cases.
It's only 130 pages and a quick read.

<snip>

Or you could go take a class from the man. Ayoob lives in Live Oak these days. Take one of his classes and get some cave diving in, all in the same trip.

Brian

[cmalinowski]

I was going into the cave at Ginnie one time about a year ago, and was about 100 feet shy of the entrance to Roller Coaster. The cave is very wide here, but not very tall except on the extreme right and extreme left, and even then not much more then about 4 feet.

Anyway, I was going INTO the cave and saw two dudes scootering my direction exiting the cave. I hesitated and thought about how I could get out of their way and yield, but there was simply no room, so I kept swimming and hugged the right hand side of the wall. The two scooter dudes hesitated a moment to assess the situation, and then (I’m guessing) asserted their right to exit the cave with me “yielding” and pointed their scooters inches from me and flew by on my left, just missing me.

I guess they were angry I didn’t stop swimming? And I guess it was their right to put my life in jeopardy for my transgression? I think not.

As luck would have it, they were parked right next to me, and I wanted very much to take their scooters and crash them on the pavement. They came inches from hitting me on the head with their scooter, which could have killed me given the logistics.

Although maybe I should have stopped swimming, there is no excuse for their behavior. I know a lot of you will say, you got what you deserve, even though there really was not place for me to go, I should have stopped swimming. I have thought about this incident a lot, and have decided the next time it happens, I’m going to call the police and have the people arrested for some sort of endangerment.

Now when I see a scooter approaching me, my heart rate goes up, I stress, and I put my hand out to make sure they hit my hand instead of my head. I feel odd doing this, even bad. I’m assuming the other person will be rude, and the other person with the scooter probably thinks, what an ass, assuming I will hit him. But I’d rather be a live ass then a dead polite diver.

And although it pains me (because I really don’t like Andrew) I totally agree with him about his comment about yielding to the people on the way IN the cave, except in an emergency situation which can be easily communicated. I always yield to people swimming into the cave. When exiting, I have plenty of gas and can take my time. When diving thirds and being near the exit, we should all have plenty of gas to exit and take our time. We are NOT on a time schedule. The people entering the cave are on a time schedule and have to turn the dive when they hit thirds, so they are diving with a hard limit.

dean

Good point. No one wants scooters to banned, nor cave diving.

But I would not feel comfortable approaching someone like them. I’d be afraid of their response to calm conversation, with them putting me in my place, and hit me. Keep in mind, you are a female, and females can get away with a lot when approaching a male. I don’t have that luxury.

It is kind of like small dogs and big dogs. Small dogs are totally unafraid to approach a large dog, because they have lived a life where someone protects them. Large dogs, who have been in fights are always more cautions. I have been attacked many, many times when approaching someone to calmly discuss a disagreement. It is a male form of intimidation utilized by bullies.

dean

I've never been hit, but several times individuals walked over to where I was, got inches from my face and yelled at me at as loud as they could, showering me with spit as they yelled. Never at a dive site, but the perpetrators were human, male humans to be exact. And not just once. I seem to bring it out of people (I know you are doing to interpret that statement as me not being polite or calm, but I was. Respect is at the core of who I am). Bullies take advantage of whatever they can, including politeness, to gain the upper hand.

This brings back the memory of … I forget his name but he is a famous pitcher in baseball, and retired as the oldest pro baseball pitcher in history. He was telling a story of how, when he first started playing ball, he accidently hit a batter with a ball. The batter calmly walked out to him on the mound, where he thought he was going to calmly talk it over. Without warning, the batter hit this pitcher. The pitcher said he never repeated that mistake. Ever time since then, when he hit someone with the ball, and they calmly walked out to the pitchers mount, he just assumed the worst and hit first.

Guys are that way. Plus, I’m a pansy when it comes to physical fighting.

dean
Wow! So, just to make sure I follow your logic: You think it would have been okay for you to beat the guys or destroy their property (scooters) because of some imaginary threat. You have no idea if there were any intentions to harm you or not. You just assumed that "they were out to get you." You think in the time that they stopped to assess the situation they looked at each other, and through just their looks alone, decided that they were gonna scare you or try to hurt you and communicated that with each other? You have got to be kidding me. Maybe they have a secret signal for "let's get that guy." Are you a mind reader? Do you have special powers like an x-man or one of the characters from Heroes or something where you know what people are thinking in a dark cave with a light shining in your direction and people clad in masks/hoods/suits with no way to read facial cues and unable to talk?

That whole story of yours is pretty f'd up if you ask me. You have absolutely no idea what was running through their heads at the time. And the suggestion to nicely ask them would have been the best approach. You don't know what kind of people they were. You say you have apprehention approaching "someone like them." What were they like. In your story they didn't utter a word. Not a peep. But you know what kind of people they were? You didn't know jack about them. You just made that up in your mind. Maybe they were just piss poor scooter pilots.

Then you follow it up with some story about how your drug dealing friends (maybe your friends are just the users, I don't know) wield true justice? After saying that no matter how calmly anyone wants to handle a situation you think hitting first like some baseball pitcher is the best approach?

I think you have issues that are best talked about with a shrink. Respect can't be at your core if you think everyone is out to get you. You are going to hurt some innocent person someday because of the imaginary stuff you are making up in your head. I don't say that as a slam. I really, really feel sorry for you because somewhere, at some point in time, someone hurt you badly and it's taken a toll on you.

[netmage]

I really, really feel sorry for you because somewhere, at some point in time, someone hurt you badly and it's taken a toll on you.

It was probably all the trauma from being banned from FX and Avid Diver...

[skip]

How about getting the pest control guys to do something about Mike Mc's avatar? I'm going to end up ruining my new laptop if I keep swatting the screen.

(Yes, after a year I'm still doing it.)

an ant just crawled across my screen and my first thought was, "how did he get it to crawl all over the place like that! Then I realized this one was real!

-skip

[GFutch]

I was coming out of the Eye on an OOG lost light drill for my Intro class and we were run over by two Open Water divers going in the Eye and out of the Ear. They were popping our placements left and right. Our instructor, Tracy Grubbs, was furious. I am not sure if they ever found out who they were. Two fellows (Larry and Doug, I believe) assured us that Darwin was at work again. I believe them.

[cavemark]

So that's where they came from. We were doing deco in the ear when all of a sudden there were two open water divers there that I was pretty sure didn't come from above us. They got into a jon boat from the water that looked like it was tied to the trees by the steps near the eye (acroos from the main steps). I spoke to one of the guys from Ginnie who said that he thought they were anchored and that there is nothing that they can do as long as they don't come onto the property.

[CPiner]

They came over to the ballroom side and we bragging about how they snuck in one light between them. Some of my OW divers and 2 students overheard them and had to explain to the why lights aren't allowed by untrained cave divers on the other side.