Pure curiosity

[LCF]

But what's the longest lights-out line-following exit you had to do in a class?

I did one in Full Cave that started from about 38 minutes of penetration, and was 48 minutes long (got my butt chewed for being slow, and learned a lesson about pushing the person in front). In mid-exit, my "buddy" (instructor) reached back and took the reg out of my mouth, which was fine.

Just wondered if that was typical. It was a long time to be in the dark, although nobody is really ever in the dark with an X1 :)

[JahJahwarrior]

My first drill of any sort in Intro was a lights out air share from Hill400 area to the moment we popped out of the lips into the gallery.

I don't really remember any other lights out drills. We did so many of them, none stand out as having been particularly long. I never exited with my primary working, and I believe every exit involved multiple backup failures.

[DA Aquamaster]

The ones I recall where I know the distance were around 500'. My experience was similar to JahJah's in terms of multiple failures and gas sharing. In full cave they also normally involved travel back over your jumps, etc to ensure you could navigate in the dark, and to illustrate the finer points of setting the jumps in a manner that made them eaier to navigate by tocuh contact.

The focus in any case was on lots of repetitions of the initial phases of getting on the line, getting squared away as a team and getting moving at a good rate of speed after the failures. I'm not an instructor, but I am not sure I see the point of doing a prolonged exit in the dark other than making the point that it can get slow if you don't make the effort to keep the speed up.

[LCF]

Well, we transited a T and a jump and a couple of restrictions, IIRC, and I think the point was to get experience doing all those things. There was, of course, also the point of being able to show me how much slower we were coming out.

[skdvr]

Non Cave diver question here...

How does the instructor keep an eye on you if all the lights are out. I always just assumed that they used some sort of blackout mask, and then the instructor could still have things lit up. From the sounds of what LCF posted that all the lights were just out. Is it something where you are diving in caves that the instructor knows so well, that as long as they keep close they know if you get out of sorts?

Just wondering.

Thanks
Phil

[sdenney]

Non Cave diver question here...

How does the instructor keep an eye on you if all the lights are out. I always just assumed that they used some sort of blackout mask, and then the instructor could still have things lit up. From the sounds of what LCF posted that all the lights were just out. Is it something where you are diving in caves that the instructor knows so well, that as long as they keep close they know if you get out of sorts?

Just wondering.

Thanks
Phil

Generally, the instructor keeps his light on, but shields it with his hand. These drills are normally done in well-known areas that are rocky (little chance of a silt-out if things went wrong), etc.

In my Intro class, my lights-out, air share drill was done in Telford from the first sink to the springs head.

[Slüdge]

These drills are normally done in well-known areas that are rocky (little chance of a silt-out if things went wrong), etc.


... or in the first 500' of the main tunnel of Peacock 1, so the vis is ruined for everyone for the day... :smt013

[Slüdge]

How does the instructor keep an eye on you if all the lights are out.

My instructor would keep a penlight on, but would instruct everyone to close their eyes during the entire drill. There were two reasons for this:

1. You should keep your eyes closed so you truly have zero visibility, while the instructor can keep a small light on to observe everything the student does. If you want to cheat and open your eyes, you're only cheating yourself. (Remember, you're paying for this instruction.)

2. In a real zero-vis situation you should close your eyes anyway. It's a psychological thing. If you have your eyes open but can't see anything your brain is more prone to go into panic mode. If they're closed it makes sense that you can't see, so you stay calmer. You should open your eyes every few minutes to see if vis has returned, and if it hasn't, close them again.

[Dsix36]

My instructor would keep a penlight on, but would instruct everyone to close their eyes during the entire drill. There were two reasons for this:

1. You should keep your eyes closed so you truly have zero visibility, while the instructor can keep a small light on to observe everything the student does. If you want to cheat and open your eyes, you're only cheating yourself. (Remember, you're paying for this instruction.)

2. In a real zero-vis situation you should close your eyes anyway. It's a psychological thing. If you have your eyes open but can't see anything your brain is more prone to go into panic mode. If they're closed it makes sense that you can't see, so you stay calmer. You should open your eyes every few minutes to see if vis has returned, and if it hasn't, close them again.

#1 above - I was instructed the same way and totally agree with you.

#2 above - I understand and almost agree with you. I dive a rebreather with a HUD, it is very important to be able to know my PO2 at all times. I tend to keep my eyes open to monitor my HUD. In the case of OC, then I would agree with you on this point also.

[Line Squirrel]

My instructor would keep a penlight on, but would instruct everyone to close their eyes during the entire drill. There were two reasons for this:

1. You should keep your eyes closed so you truly have zero visibility, while the instructor can keep a small light on to observe everything the student does. If you want to cheat and open your eyes, you're only cheating yourself. (Remember, you're paying for this instruction.)

2. In a real zero-vis situation you should close your eyes anyway. It's a psychological thing. If you have your eyes open but can't see anything your brain is more prone to go into panic mode. If they're closed it makes sense that you can't see, so you stay calmer. You should open your eyes every few minutes to see if vis has returned, and if it hasn't, close them again.

Bang on Russell.

I closed my eyes as well. I opened my eyes once or twice by mistake for a split second, it's a natural reaction after awhile but it was sooooo black that my brain made more sense of it with my eyes closed. I had "dark" computors...the VR3's, etc. weren't on the market yet lol.

[RN]

Well, we transited a T and a jump and a couple of restrictions, IIRC, and I think the point was to get experience doing all those things. There was, of course, also the point of being able to show me how much slower we were coming out.

How likely is it to lose visibility for that long and in that much of the cave? I've been in a few low to zero visibility situations and they have all cleared up enough to come off the line within a couple hundred feet. A zero visibility exit from 38 minutes in the cave isn't a realistic situation.

[sskasser]

Not realistic, but then an instructor can't truly make it totally "real" for the student, as the student KNOWS it's a drill. The stress is there, but it's just not the same as knowing you can't just open your eyes or turn on your light. Maybe by continuing it for so long, the stress builds up a bit? I'm just guessing. I'm the freak that enjoyed those drills, anyway, so what do I know? :smt102

[DogDiver]

If you ever turn your lights off after a few minutes you can read quite easly a good spg as well as your watch and or bottom timer. Good instructors will be able to keep track of thier students that way and not have to unshield thier light only a few times. My Citizen Eco-drive timer lights up quite nicely. Wouldn't want to exit a cave with it but my buddy sure can locate me.

[Keith]

Longest was in Peanut tunnel at Peacock I during Intro, 20 minute exit. Not the main line Slüdge, so it wasn't me.:yawinkle:
All lights were out and a new darkness was learned.

Trying to look around with no light messed with my head and I found it much easier to just close my eyes, think about what I was doing, and exit with no big issue. I found myself very calm and each :arrowred was more and more reassuring.

Keith

[LCF]

Interestingly, I've never found much of a difference between doing them with my eyes open or closed, if it was dark. With the X1, there's a BIG difference, because it isn't entirely dark :)

I did two long dark exits in that class (the second one to prove I'd learned the lesson from the first about needing to MOVE) and found them surprisingly easy, actually. I have previously done them and found buoyancy control to be very difficult, but it turns out that a lot of that seems to have been team dynamics. If everybody's having trouble and pulling up and down on each other, it's hard; if everybody's pretty much spot on and handling their own buoyancy ok, it's not.

[DA Aquamaster]

I have previously done them and found buoyancy control to be very difficult, but it turns out that a lot of that seems to have been team dynamics. If everybody's having trouble and pulling up and down on each other, it's hard; if everybody's pretty much spot on and handling their own buoyancy ok, it's not.I think that is a major issue, one that is often not addressed in a class, especially if the lights out drills are done in fairly level sections of cave.

Between intro and full, I practiced by setting a line perhaps 200' long along a wall in a local quarry varying up and down in depth from perhaps 70 ft to 4 ft. then "exit" along the line with eyes closed. It really helped develop a feel for very slight changes in buoyancy without any tendency to pull on the line.

Good buoyancy speeds the exit, but also ensures divers stay off the floor during the drill, and in that regard aides cave conservation and minimizes the degradation of the viz for everyone else in places like P1 and PIII. It is after all only a drill.

[Tegg]

But what's the longest lights-out line-following exit you had to do in a class?

I did one in Full Cave that started from about 38 minutes of penetration, and was 48 minutes long (got my butt chewed for being slow, and learned a lesson about pushing the person in front). In mid-exit, my "buddy" (instructor) reached back and took the reg out of my mouth, which was fine.

Just wondered if that was typical. It was a long time to be in the dark, although nobody is really ever in the dark with an X1 :)

Sounds like a good exercise considering in some caves the whole exit can have almost full to full whiteouts (which makes having a light useless) or siltouts.

The instructor was probably just trying to show you that you can follow a line quickly for exit in no vis if it is run properly. The instructor may have also been trying to show you how wraps and tie-offs can impede your exit speed. Maybe making you ponder their use and "over use" when running a line.

[Gene Powell]

How likely is it to lose visibility for that long and in that much of the cave? I've been in a few low to zero visibility situations and they have all cleared up enough to come off the line within a couple hundred feet. A zero visibility exit from 38 minutes in the cave isn't a realistic situation.
It is where I come from.:smt102

[Slüdge]

almost full to full whiteouts (which makes having a light useless) or siltouts.

Exactly. Since I carry a minimum of four lights, and if I have a buddy that's at least seven, a zero-visibility exit is unlikely to be caused by light failure. It's a siltout. I have been in situations where my primary light is absolutely useless, even for reading gauges. This is when you close your eyes, swim a minute or two, open them for a second, close them for another minute...

[Slüdge]

It is where I come from.

... or if you dive with the people I dive with.

[BigBoB]

During the first few dives of my class we had done significant lights out work. More than 20 minutes each dive. I felt very comfortable and never really felt completely in the dark due to my hud. I guess being able to focus on the hud's constant blinking gives you something else to focus on other than the dark.

On my third day of CCR cave I experienced the worst silt out to date, lights were completely useless. Turned out one of my buddies and caves did not get along. The plan was for me to run a jump just after the peanut restriction. ..think we were going to challenge, but I can't remember exactly. About halfway across the jump, for whatever reason, I glanced back and surprisingly there was a wall of silt coming at me and I could vaguely could make out one light out of three. I then sped things up a little and tied my spool into the other line. To make matters worse for me another team had already had a spool run and all I could think about was please make it to the other line and tie in before the silt gets here. I did make it to the other line but had to tie in lights out. After tieing in I waited on the line for what seemed like 5 minutes but was probably closer to 45 seconds. After turning around I couldnt see ****, not even my hud. After some quick thinking I decided it would be prudent to figure out what I was breathing so I fiddled with the hud and positioned it up against my mask (always have it configured this way now) and followed the line to my nearest buddy and started a "bump and go". We never seemed to slow down so I assumed that my buddy that I was bumping was bumping the guy in front of him. After swimming for about 5 minutes or so we were still in the silt and I still could not make any lights other than mine and my buddies. Once coming out of the silt I could just make out two lights in front of our team and we ok'd them and the entire team exited very quickly. After surfacing, I found out that the third member of our team had gotten spooked and basically freaked out kicked up a bunch of silt, climbed over the instructor and hauled ass flutter kicking all the way out of the cave . Cave diving wasn't for him.

Question for instructors: What do you do when this happens? You have one student who is sprinting out of the cave and you have two others that are back in a huge siltout.

[BabyDuck]

phil, as for how instructors keep track...magic. i'm firmly convinced.

i think mike o'leary feels the line to 'see' what's going on, along with brief *brief* flashes of his light.

and he made me take off my vr3 for the lights-out stuff!

[Gene Powell]

... or if you dive with the people I dive with.

LOL! Sounds like my buddies been cheating on me!

[RN]

It is where I come from.:smt102

A true ZERO visibility exit? I do a lot of off the beaten path dives in small passage where exiting in reduced visibility is inevitable just because of percolation. But ZERO visibility just isn't that common for that long, especially in backmount.

[sea2summit]

... or if you dive with the people I dive with.

???? Big talk Mr. Scooter tail in the dirt and hold the trigger:smt081

FWIW I've only been in to "real" silt outs one caused by Russell that lasted all of the 3 seconds it took for JB to flush it out and the other one in the century tunnel at Maddison. Century tunnel was basically no-flow so we had to swim out and I'd say less than 75' of stuff we'd stirred up and we where clear. So yeah 38min might be long but I'd rather know I could go the distance and not have to then start freaking out after 75' of swimming.

From back in the days when I made money diving closing my eye's helped more than a few projects get done that I was making no progress on with my eye's open. If your in the situation give it a try.

[scububa]

How likely is it to lose visibility for that long and in that much of the cave? I've been in a few low to zero visibility situations and they have all cleared up enough to come off the line within a couple hundred feet. A zero visibility exit from 38 minutes in the cave isn't a realistic situation.

Yes, but to run a 10k race (pick your favorite distance/event) your training is generally longer than running 10k once. It classically takes repeated sessions of longer duration to become proficient enough to execute to standards.

[b1gcountry]

Non Cave diver question here...

How does the instructor keep an eye on you if all the lights are out. I always just assumed that they used some sort of blackout mask, and then the instructor could still have things lit up. From the sounds of what LCF posted that all the lights were just out. Is it something where you are diving in caves that the instructor knows so well, that as long as they keep close they know if you get out of sorts?

Just wondering.

Thanks
Phil

When Kathy and I did our class with Jim Wyatt, he just told us to close our eyes. Apparently, he tested us a couple times by looking into our masks, and giving us some hand signals to see if we responded, but also said that when I bumped into the same rock for the fourth time, he knew I wasn't cheating ;)

[Gene Powell]

A true ZERO visibility exit? I do a lot of off the beaten path dives in small passage where exiting in reduced visibility is inevitable just because of percolation. But ZERO visibility just isn't that common for that long, especially in backmount.

It only takes once! You obviously have better bouyancy skills than I do.:yawinkle:

[DA Aquamaster]

...and the other one in the century tunnel at Maddison. Century tunnel was basically no-flow so we had to swim out and I'd say less than 75' of stuff we'd stirred up and we where clear.Marci and I have been to the end of the line in the Centruy tunnel when the cave was fairly fluffy, post flood, and even then, the viz on exit was only 6 inches or so briefly in the last man out position right after we turned, but it never went to zero.

Six inches is a lot of viz if you make use of it.

And that's probably the point of doing totally blacked out exits.

[JLH]

My last lights out drill was in the catacombs in the devils system with three divers. That was interesting. We did a lost line drill at the lips with blacked out masks. I was the first one done, after I switched masks I got to go to the top and watch the others. Then followed our line through the catacombs. As soon as we were in, we were given the lights out signal . I was leading, then the back two were told to share air of which I had no idea untill we were out.

[K Mejean]

I just did a lights out drill in the catacombs too. That makes for an interesting dive for sure.

[RN]

It only takes once! You obviously have better bouyancy skills than I do.:yawinkle:

Nah! Where I encounter zero visibility buoyancy usually isn't an issue...

[Jay]

Not lights out, but I did about a 2-4" vis swim from EOL in Little River to past the old deep section jump. I say 2", but I could not read my gauge, whatever vis that is. I was glad I did not cheat during my LO drills!!!

[ssmdive]

My instructor had a blacked out mask... Also did a few drills with my mask on my forehead.

This pic was from a dive before my certification at the ballroom in Ginnie.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt218/SSmdive/Dive/blinddrills2lr.jpg

[mfascuba]

I've had instructors just take my mask - it was prearranged, but still, now there is real pressure to get on the line and get out. I don't open my eyes underwater, but once you get moving, get used to not having the mask on, and get used to not having visibility, you can move at a steady (slow) pace. I carry a backup mask and a couple extra backup lights, jut in case...

Mark

[LCF]

What was really interesting about the second of our long dark exits was that we matched our entry speed. If you remember what you went through, and if all team members have their buoyancy down, it's amazing how fast you can move when you can't see. I think this was the lesson Dennis intended to teach by doing these long swims, and if so, it sank in.

[Michael Stroeck]

The longest one we did was in Ginnie, swimming from the Keyhole to the Eye. While daisy-chain airshairing in a three-man team. I kind of dreaded that exercise, but in reality it was quite relaxing. By that time I knew the cave so well that I always approximately knew where I was anyway.

[JeffBerry]

My instructor had a blacked out mask... Also did a few drills with my mask on my forehead.

This pic was from a dive before my certification at the ballroom in Ginnie.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt218/SSmdive/Dive/blinddrills2lr.jpg
Some day I will find out what it is like to dive in water over 48degrees with more than 20 feet of vis

[LiteHedded]

Some day I will find out what it is like to dive in water over 48degrees with more than 20 feet of vis

it's pretty neat :)

[John Bailey]

People may find this weird, but in my no vis drills, I found it strangely relaxing when we were moving along the line. I was just focusing on moving along and bouyancy. Less so when needing to cross over at obstructions etc., but other than that not a big deal.

John

[BobK]

Did a dive with three others in Lafayett Blue. I was the fourth diver in the line, so I essentially did the whole dive with no vis. Every so often we would come to a spring so I got to see stuff again, but otherwise I would be following a line in darkness, no walls, no ceiling, occasionally floor. It seemed like outer space.

I love that system :)

[aainslie]

I've had several exits where I had to do over 1000 ft with viz largely below 1 ft. A couple of these included having to navigate and pick up reels and markers.

The last time it happened, I assumed that I'd blow it out slightly. On my way out I swam for over 30 mins with viz below 1 ft, picking up a reel and quite a few markers. It was in cave with old, loose explorer line way back in one of the Marianna pond caves.

If you're going to go off the beaten track, make sure you're willing to go a LONG way in narrow passage with no viz. It's very freaky if you haven't encountered it before - and a little freaky when you have. But after a few times, it becomes somewhere between irritating and amusing - which is the whole point. It should be a non-issue. And you should be able to swim it almost as fast as you do lights on.

To which point - YES, 38 minutes or so is realistic.

[Arctic Mike]

I have been in a true zero vis situation only once. My buddy and I were exploring a very small passage off the main line in P1 in backmount. The way in was fine of course but the way out was about 15 minutes in pure darkness. My lights were completely useless in the siltout. I agree with Sludge and others, close your eyes, relax, and just do what you have been trained, and have practiced, to do. BTW, frequent diving in the Cooper River, Charleston, SC, helps prepare you for very low vis as well! :yawinkle:

[RN]

To which point - YES, 38 minutes or so is realistic.

Not for the dives most people are doing...

[LiteHedded]

Not for the dives most people are doing...

agreed.
it would take some doing for most people to encounter true zero vis for that amount of time. not that it can't be done though :D

[sea2summit]

agreed.
it would take some doing for most people to encounter true zero vis for that amount of time. not that it can't be done though :D

x1

Am I the only one that looks back fairly often to make mental notes for exit? I can't imagine going 38 minutes into something and not figuring out I've completely wasted the passege until I turn around.:smt102

[DA Aquamaster]

x1

Am I the only one that looks back fairly often to make mental notes for exit? I can't imagine going 38 minutes into something and not figuring out I've completely wasted the passege until I turn around.:smt102You are not the only one, but can you make any guarentees about the team 5 minutes behind you?

[jj1987]

x1

Am I the only one that looks back fairly often to make mental notes for exit? I can't imagine going 38 minutes into something and not figuring out I've completely wasted the passege until I turn around.:smt102
I don't think Andrew said or implied that he waited 38 minutes until he realized the viz was blitzed behind him. While Andrew and I don't always see eye to eye, I do enjoy stirring him up from time to time because he always provides a well thought out reply which would convince me he thinks things through and wouldn't be the type to swim THAT far without looking.

I'm guessing he's referring specifically to a Wakulla Co. system that he's been trying to explore.

[Tegg]

x1

Am I the only one that looks back fairly often to make mental notes for exit? I can't imagine going 38 minutes into something and not figuring out I've completely wasted the passege until I turn around.:smt102

In some caves the diver KNOWS it is "wasted" since that is part of the character of the cave... it's not always possible to avoid having a low to zero vis exit...

[Webmaster]

And sometimes it's just like that already when you start the dive.

[aainslie]

In some caves the diver KNOWS it is "wasted" since that is part of the character of the cave... it's not always possible to avoid having a low to zero vis exit...

Yup, that was the case I knew I was blitzing it since i was scraping muy back and stomach on a really finely silted passage, but I was surprised at how little the muck settled - I assumed that on the way out, within 10 mins I would regain vis. I suspect that if anyone had followed me down that line for the next 24 hours they would have been cursing me.

[Ben M]

Yup, that was the case I knew I was blitzing it since i was scraping muy back and stomach on a really finely silted passage,

When you say your back, you mean your rebreather right? Next time try it sidemount. But why worry about conservation if you don't mind zero vis exits? Plow on, heck it wasn't pristine before you went in.

[Gene Powell]

I've always planned my dives based on the possibility of something going wrong. Not the assumption that it wouldn't. I don't think cave diving is an endeavor suited for assumptions. Do I think an instructor is wrong if he doesn't do a 30 minute lights out drill? No! And I don't think one who does is being unrealistic. The fact is, the duration and intensity of a silt-out, as well as any cave damage is directly related to the way you handle the situation. The way you handle the situation is directly related to how comfortable you are, which is directly related to your experience in said conditions.

[FW]

I've always planned my dives based on the possibility of something going wrong. Not the assumption that it wouldn't. I don't think cave diving is an endeavor suited for assumptions. Do I think an instructor is wrong if he doesn't do a 30 minute lights out drill? No! And I don't think one who does is being unrealistic. The fact is, the duration and intensity of a silt-out, as well as any cave damage is directly related to the way you handle the situation. The way you handle the situation is directly related to how comfortable you are, which is directly related to your experience in conditions.
Best answer yet!

Generally people ONLY practice no-viz exits in their classes, so it never hurts to get plenty of practice :-)

I dive in low/no-viz all the time so I get plenty. I think everyone should practice once in awhile. All you have to do is close your eyes, and negotiate a few tie offs. Once every few dives will give you a lot of confidence, in case you get into a real no-viz situation.

[chilldive]

I recall an excercise during my training where we dumped all gas from our wings, took off masks and shut off lights. There were three of us and we had to exit thru the Peanut Tunnel (300 - 400 ft). I recall it took a LONG time to exit. We basically crawled out. Maintaining touch contact, crossing over the line, and falling in holes were the worst part. I kept waiting for someone to get their air shut off and have to perform an OOA drill.

I think that excercise was more related to dealing with overall stress and multiple failures than just a lights out exit. It definitely increased my confidence and calmness in dealing with various situations. It also clearly showed me that cave diving was something I was cut out for.

Oh yeah, and I had a few pin holes in the dry suit to fix after that as well! lol.

[LCF]

Oh, I didn't think the drills we did were excessive! I was pretty sure I knew exactly why we were doing what we were doing, and I learned a good lesson about keeping the team moving in the dark (and cues for assessing the speed of progress, too).

[aainslie]

When you say your back, you mean your rebreather right? Next time try it sidemount. But why worry about conservation if you don't mind zero vis exits? Plow on, heck it wasn't pristine before you went in.

Gee, THERE's a new whine...

Ben, at least I openly talk about what I do. If you want me to do what others do and shut up... and still do the same dives... that's fine.

And if you find the passage I've forever destroyed, let me know.

Good grief.

[OFG-1]

And if you find the passage I've forever destroyed, let me know.

Good grief.

I know of one south of tallahassee where you left a bunch of little white line all over the place. It is really unsightly, all of that crap zig zagging all over the cave, knots everywhere, and bits of pointy plastic junk hanging off of it. Knock it off already, you bastard.

[aainslie]

I know of one south of tallahassee where you left a bunch of little white line all over the place. It is really unsightly, all of that crap zig zagging all over the cave, knots everywhere, and bits of pointy plastic junk hanging off of it. Knock it off already, you bastard.

Sorry John. i'll be a good boy next time, I promise.


...I'll use pink line.

[LiteHedded]

I know of one south of tallahassee where you left a bunch of little white line all over the place. It is really unsightly, all of that crap zig zagging all over the cave, knots everywhere, and bits of pointy plastic junk hanging off of it. Knock it off already, you bastard.

lol

[sskasser]

Sorry John. i'll be a good boy next time, I promise.


...I'll use pink line.

MUCH better! I have reel full of it, hot pink and knotted. Whenever you're ready ;)

[BobK]

Once every few dies will give you a lot of confidence, in case you get into a real no-viz situation.

I don't know. It would probably only take me one die to get some real confidence ;-)

[FW]

I don't know. It would probably only take me one die to get some real confidence ;-)
I fixed it, I think maybe you and Russell need to swap roles on the CDF :-D

[Ben M]

Gee, THERE's a new whine...

Ben, at least I openly talk about what I do. If you want me to do what others do and shut up... and still do the same dives... that's fine.

And if you find the passage I've forever destroyed, let me know.

Good grief.

Maybe you have this mistaken for some other argument. The only true conservation is for us not to go in there at all, but since we do, lessening our impact with the tools readily available to us is a good thing. No one diver is perfect in the water, but we don't have to be a bull in the china shop either.

I don't have to look for the passage, I know it first hand and you told me about your experience in it after you finished your dive there. Or maybe you forgot, I was at Edd's and we were discussing where the line goes and the T's in the line that you did not take. In low passage a tall profile isn't the best equipment for the job. You said you didn't realize how bad it was until coming back out. Then you post the below quote and I understand now that it was not that you didn't realize you were plowing it up so bad, but it was you didn't realize it wouldn't settle back out for the return trip.


Yup, that was the case I knew I was blitzing it since i was scraping muy back and stomach on a really finely silted passage, but I was surprised at how little the muck settled - I assumed that on the way out, within 10 mins I would regain vis. I suspect that if anyone had followed me down that line for the next 24 hours they would have been cursing me.

So my gripe is that you knowingly pushed on in a tall configuration, when you could have done the same thing in SM. I guess that would have required another dive or some other inconvenience to you. This was what amounted to a site seeing dive for you, this was not about exploration or pushing cave. Seems like egocentric thinking to me.

If you are taking care and picking spots going in when you can see, what do you think happens when you turn to exit and follow the line out in no vis? When we can take care of the cave we should. You've seen first hand the damage we as divers can do and also seen the beauty of pristine cave.

Maybe this is a good topic for another thread, although I know it's been done before. Where is the line on intentional cave damage? When and how much is okay and when is it not?

[aainslie]

OK Ben, you win the Conservationist of the Week award. I'll remember to be more circumspect around you in future.

[Ben M]

Does that come with a cash prize?

[LCF]

I really hate to see two people I like at loggerheads in my own thread . . . :(

[OFG-1]

I really hate to see two people I like at loggerheads in my own thread . . . :(

Are you calling these guys turtles???

[Slüdge]

I thought maybe Loggerheads was some redneck bar...

[BabyDuck]

except lynne is not a redneck. you can tell because her saddles don't have horns.

[BobK]

except lynne is not a redneck. you can tell because her saddles don't have horns.

I don't even want to know what this means :)

[DA Aquamaster]

except lynne is not a redneck. you can tell because her saddles don't have horns.Then how does she tell the other horsey drivers to get out of her way?

[LCF]

Flash my light at them, of course!

[BabyDuck]

I don't even want to know what this means :)

english, not western. she's really into dressage.

because one horribly expensive hobby isn't enough!

[icestac]

I don't even want to know what this means :)

It means REALLY strong thighs... :smt102

[MORGAN]

Then how does she tell the other horsey drivers to get out of her way?

She doesn't have to. She's a dressage rider - other equestrians just respectfully stay out of her way! :)

I have to tease the DQ's (Dressage Queens) because my wife Tracy is a recovering dressage rider. Fortunately she has been diverted by cave diving the last 5 years or so - it's less complicated and less expensive than dressage!

Mike

[MORGAN]

It means REALLY strong thighs... :smt102

Yes, it does. :)

Mike

[LCF]

it's less complicated and less expensive than dressage!

True words were never spoken!

[DA Aquamaster]

She doesn't have to. She's a dressage rider - other equestrians just respectfully stay out of her way! :)

I have to tease the DQ's (Dressage Queens) because my wife Tracy is a recovering dressage rider. Fortunately she has been diverted by cave diving the last 5 years or so - it's less complicated and less expensive than dressage!

MikeIt's always looked interesting to me, but being raised on a ranch I have always been much more comfortable with a roping saddle on a good cutting horse.

[vshearer]

Personally I prefer bareback riding.

[K Mejean]

Personally I prefer bareback riding.
Something tells me you are talking about a different kind of riding.:rollguy
I prefer to do that riding bareback as well.

[BabyDuck]

doesn't everyone?

and the award for most *and* most creatively hijacked thread goes to...this one!