Doubles for Cavern

[vicp]

Hi All,

I posted this question late in the "Doubles for Intro/Basic Cave " thread but it got buried (tried unsuccessfully to hijack my own thread).

Anyway,


I have taken cavern twice, 10 years ago with NSS-CDS and 2 months ago with NACD as a refresher. I have cavern certifications from both and did both classes with a single tank.

As I seem to have gotten the bug for for overhead and technical (not necessarily very deep or extended deco), I am looking towards getting more overhead experience and training and intro/basic cave seems to be the next step. Even though I have been diving for over 30 years (just about all ocean) and am a Divemaster, I am fairly new to overhead (~20 dives) and have never used doubles.

Looking at the cave requirements and limitations made me ask the original question about whether it made sense to use doubles for intro/basic cave given the restrictions (1/6 gas, time limits, etc.) specified by NSS and NACD.

After thinking about what everyone has said, I think that I will just get more experience with my newly acquired dry suit and double up my LP108s in the very near future and possibly take a Tech (doubles?) class so that I get very comfortable with all the new gear before taking inro/basic cave. I may also try to find a certifying agency (IANTD, others?) that does not time limit doubles use for intro/basic cave.

BTW, is there a doubles restriction for cavern? NACD says 1/6 and under instructor supervision. What about after the class?

My NSS-CDS cavern manual from the time I took the cavern class 10 years ago (First Printing, 1988 ), discusses singles, doubles, K, J, Y (dual) valves and manifolds but does not mention anything about using only singles or any doubles restrictions. They only recommend that team members use the same size cylinders filled to the same pressure.

I take this to mean that if I feel comfortable and competent in doubles, I can dive them legally in cavern zones with my NSSCDS cert. Is this correct?


It seems to me that intro/basic doubles limits (1/6 gas, etc.) are there to limit penetration while Cavern penetration is defined by a linear limit (200'). My NSS-CDS Cavern card (and the manual I used) has no cylinder designation limitations.

So, with all of the above, if I get trained and competent in doubles can I dive them in Cavern zones within cert. limits, especially with the NSS-CDS card and will any site/locations challenge that?

Thanks

[Slüdge]

I don't know of any sites that wouldn't allow you to dive doubles in a cavern.

[Meister481]

Doesn't Ginnie frown on them unless your Cavern/Intro card says "Doubles"?

[Slüdge]

If I were a cavern diver at Ginnie I would stick to the Ginnie Ballroom. In my opinion, the Devil Eye and Devil Ear are pitiful caverns for actually doing anything.

Peacock 1, Orange Grove, Madison Blue, Jackson Blue, Catfish Hotel, Morrison, even Little River, have MUCH better caverns.

[vicp]

What is the protocol at Ginnie? Do they actually check or mark your wrist bands for singles or doubles?

[double humper]

At Ginnie , intro divers get a different colored wrist band, and regardless of the rig you were certified in, you are not allowed in the cave with double tanks.

[DA Aquamaster]

I dove Ginnie several times in the year between intro and full cave and while theoretically they check, I never got questioned about diving doubles. (I didn't even own a singles rig at the time.) Don't advertise, and look like you are doing what you are supposed to be doing and no one will probably notice. But don't tell them I told you that. :)

[vicp]

At Ginnie , intro divers get a different colored wrist band, and regardless of the rig you were certified in, you are not allowed in the cave with double tanks.

Do they do the same for Cavern, like in the Ballroom? There is nothing on their site abour this.

[mag3]

What is the protocol at Ginnie? Do they actually check or mark your wrist bands for singles or doubles?

In my experience, Your band is marked either

OW - Open Water
Cavern - For Cavern Diving (or Cavern Training)
Cave - For all other diving/training levels.

It does not distinguish between singles or doubles, but I'd bet the Ginnie Staff person at each basin (more likely the Eye/Ear) will want to chat if you have doubles and either don't have a "cave" band or are not with a cave instructor.

For the record, I've done all my training so far (and got my cavern ticket) in doubles and a dry suit. I will continue to practice in doubles and do my cavern dives in doubles (I already have my Adv. Nitrox/Deco tickets), but it may mean I won't be able to dive Ginnie much unless I'm with my instructor. That's OK though. I'd rather dive places like P1 or JB while I'm getting my cavern "experience" dives (less flow) and before I get ready to take on the Eye/Ear (and the flow) again.

[mag3]

At Ginnie , intro divers get a different colored wrist band, and regardless of the rig you were certified in, you are not allowed in the cave with double tanks.

I was just there a few weeks ago doing Intro training with my instructor. My band was marked "Cave" (blue), and I was allowed to be in doubles with my instructor. Not sure if I would be allowed to be in doubles on my own (ie. with a buddy or with just a cavern ticket).

[Slüdge]

... or JB while I'm getting my cavern "experience" dives (less flow)

Let me know how that works out for you. :rollguy






(Caveat: JB's flow is WAY down now from normal. Usually it rips.)

[mag3]

Let me know how that works out for you.

(Caveat: JB's flow is WAY down now from normal. Usually it rips.)

How would you compare it (ie. the *normal* flow) to the "normal" flow at the Eye/Ear? If same or worse,

then I guess it's off my list as well... :smt102

[Slüdge]

How would you compare it (ie. the *normal* flow) to the "normal" flow at the Eye/Ear? If same or worse,

then I guess it's off my list as well... :smt102

In the '90s I was told don't bother going to Jackson Blue without a scooter. I went there anyway in '99 and it was swimmable - pretty much like Devil's.

In the last year it's been a little less than Devil's, and over the past few months it's really been down. Not Peacock low, but low for JB.

Come on up! Best cavern in Florida!

[Meister481]

Best cavern in Florida!

Plenty to explore in that one.

If your card says "Intro Doubles" They will usually give you an apprentice pass. Your card must say doubles in my experience, but it's been a little while since I've been there. I'm just not a big fan of Ginnie, too many shenanigans going on there over the years.

[RN]

At Ginnie , intro divers get a different colored wrist band, and regardless of the rig you were certified in, you are not allowed in the cave with double tanks.

Not true. If you were trained at the Intro/Basic level in doubles, you can dive the cave in doubles to 1/6s. You must just have proof that you completed your training in doubles.


In the '90s I was told don't bother going to Jackson Blue without a scooter.

It's been pretty high in the past year, gone back down, but now on the way back up again. I've heard when it was up REALLY high it took a scooter, stage, and finning just to get back to the 1st T!!!

[Slüdge]

I'm probably not the one to ask about flow there - during the past three years I've been riding five different scooters there and I'm not sure which are faster and which are slower. One thing I AM able to do is judge how fast it spits me out of the mouth of the cavern. Rob's right; a few months ago it was low for JB, but last week it was back up.

The highest I've seen it in the ten years I've been going there was May of '05. I saw a couple of guys with 104s and a stage each, and they hit thirds at the first T (p950').

[flyguy199]

At Ginnie , intro divers get a different colored wrist band, and regardless of the rig you were certified in, you are not allowed in the cave with double tanks.

Not true, an intro. cave diver CAN dive doubles at Ginnie if you were trained in that configuration and can prove it, either with a letter from the instructor or if the c-card states the class was completed in doubles.

[LiteHedded]

Not true, an intro. cave diver CAN dive doubles at Ginnie if you were trained in that configuration and can prove it, either with a letter from the instructor or if the c-card states the class was completed in doubles.

yep
they write intro w/ doubles on the band. and it's not a different color

[Meister481]

Let me know how that works out for you. :rollguy






(Caveat: JB's flow is WAY down now from normal. Usually it rips.)

Cavern Dive #1 was at JB, I was lead so I had a wonderful time trying to reel in the primary while my drysuit was blowing up and the cave was spitting me out. Good times there! That was around March 06? Highest flow I remember!

A scooter and Girl-Esque Sac rate will serve you well at JB when it's pumping. I have swam to 2k on double 95's there when it was down a while back. That didn't last long. Purchased an N-19 once it picked back up!

[mag3]

In the '90s I was told don't bother going to Jackson Blue without a scooter. I went there anyway in '99 and it was swimmable - pretty much like Devil's.

In the last year it's been a little less than Devil's, and over the past few months it's really been down. Not Peacock low, but low for JB.

Come on up! Best cavern in Florida!

I suppose for Cavern level dives it doesn't matter as much.... but for Intro training, I know I'll have to get used to the high flow stuff at some point....

One step at a time.... One level at a time....

[rotor60driver]

There are other cavern/cave dives on the MillPond also so you could get quite a few dives in during a weekend.

[edl]

naui and gue will not teach cave 1 in anything but doubles. This is for safety reasons only. My trimix instructor,. cave instructor told me not to do intro in anything but doubles.

[DogHouseDiver]

Consider taking it in Sidemount...

I took Cavern in Sidemount at JB and Ginnie and have been really happy with the whole experience, convenience (easier on my back in/out of water), and saved all the money I would have spent on doubles and eventually SM when the time came. I don't use it to tunnel into boreholes/restrictions, I just like the isolated redundancy and ease/comfort of the rig plus versatility, I can run doubles in my SM rig if I want to. But if you see yourself going SM some day, why not cut out the middleman costs of the doubles stage? Unless that's your thing. To each his/her oown.

Intro Oct 23/24 in SM coming up.

There's more experienced opinions out there...
My 2 cents, from a low hours cavern dude. :)

[stairman]

I did cavern with a guy who had doubles, just get trim and buancy down before the class. Your instructor might add an isolation drill that is normally not done at that level with a single valve. My first post on CDF or any forum was complaining about not being able to enter the cave in doubles at Ginnie as an intro. I understand their reasoning since depth and time can get into deco which is not covered at that level. Of course having a couple computers can get you back safely. Ginnie now sells 32% submersible deco tables and I got one last week there. For years all they had was the air table. If I had my twin set at time of cavern I would have done it in them.

[CaveBuddy95]

The cavern cert is a recreational one, so it should create a sort of barrier and have the diver keep is rec gear whereas if the same diver goes Intro he will either take training in doubles or sm
I think this has its logic in a way

[DA Aquamaster]

The cavern cert is a recreational one, so it should create a sort of barrier and have the diver keep is rec gear whereas if the same diver goes Intro he will either take training in doubles or sm
I think this has its logic in a wayCavern Intro and Full are all "recreational" certs from one perspective, but in the context of entering an overhead environment, the poitential for a silt out, the need for a line, etc, they are all very much technical certs, so the logic that cavern is best done in OW recreational gear is a little weak.

I think a more important consideration is where does the diver intend to do with the cert? If it is a terminal cert in the diver's progression and cavern diving is all he/she plans to do, then it may make some sense to do it in a single tank/h-valve and BCD. But if the diver intends to progress to Intor and or Full Cave or intends to use the skills in wreck penetration, then doing it in doubles makes much more sense - provided they are proficient in doubles before they arrive for the course.

If their intent is to advance beyond Cavern then they should make the transition to doubles and sooner is arguably better than later as it allow for more experience in doubles and more experience in the cavern/cave environment in doubles.

Regardless of the gear used the only "barrier" keeping the diver from going past the cavern zone is self discipline and if the diver lacks that he or she should find a different sport.

[mag3]

If their intent is to advance beyond Cavern then they should make the transition to doubles and sooner is arguably better than later as it allow for more experience in doubles and more experience in the cavern/cave environment in doubles.



And furthermore, if one has already begun a "tech" career in other aspects (in my case, I already had Adv. Nitrox/Deco before I began the cave series), it doesn't seem to make sense to go back to a single. Given the limits of the cavern cert (ie. 200' linear penetration, within a natural light zone, etc. etc.) I don't think having doubles would entail the same risk as say, "intro" level penetrations (where rule of sixths is most appropriate, until one is acclimated to such penetrations and can handle the task loading and be able to get out with the available gas etc.). Once acclimated, then it's time to move on to Apprentice/Full training.

[DA Aquamaster]

And furthermore, if one has already begun a "tech" career in other aspects (in my case, I already had Adv. Nitrox/Deco before I began the cave series), it doesn't seem to make sense to go back to a single.Exactly. An instructor requiring me to take cavern and intro in a single tank would have been a deal breaker given that I had been diving doubles for over a decade and the only single tank rig I owned at the time was a vintage rig.

Same with diving dry versus wet. Thank God no one asked me for a dry suit cert to prove I was qualified to dive with a dry suit after a decade of doing it with no cert.

[CaveBuddy95]

Cavern Intro and Full are all "recreational" certs from one perspective, but in the context of entering an overhead environment, the poitential for a silt out, the need for a line, etc, they are all very much technical certs, so the logic that cavern is best done in OW recreational gear is a little weak.

I think a more important consideration is where does the diver intend to do with the cert? If it is a terminal cert in the diver's progression and cavern diving is all he/she plans to do, then it may make some sense to do it in a single tank/h-valve and BCD. But if the diver intends to progress to Intor and or Full Cave or intends to use the skills in wreck penetration, then doing it in doubles makes much more sense - provided they are proficient in doubles before they arrive for the course.

If their intent is to advance beyond Cavern then they should make the transition to doubles and sooner is arguably better than later as it allow for more experience in doubles and more experience in the cavern/cave environment in doubles.

Regardless of the gear used the only "barrier" keeping the diver from going past the cavern zone is self discipline and if the diver lacks that he or she should find a different sport.

I know it's an old post but I was bored today so went for an exploration in the core of the CDF... lol

Cavern divers are in the realm of recreational diving. Intro and up are in the Tech realm of scuba diving.

If I have a request for Cavern in doubles, I will suggest an extra day (will depends on 'doubles' experience/cert) to get to Intro. It does not make sense diving cavern on doubles. Limited penetration, always in ambient light. Don't get me wrong, it can be done. It' s a bit like sidemount in cavern! An OW sidemount certified diver looking at cavern training should be advised to go straight to Intro. And that is what is going on here, in Mexico. Maybe different views in Florida sites.

I go back to normal life now! :)

[FW]

I know it's an old post but I was bored today so went for an exploration in the core of the CDF... lol

Cavern divers are in the realm of recreational diving. Intro and up are in the Tech realm of scuba diving.

If I have a request for Cavern in doubles, I will suggest an extra day (will depends on 'doubles' experience/cert) to get to Intro. It does not make sense diving cavern on doubles. Limited penetration, always in ambient light. Don't get me wrong, it can be done. It' s a bit like sidemount in cavern! An OW sidemount certified diver looking at cavern training should be advised to go straight to Intro. And that is what is going on here, in Mexico. Maybe different views in Florida sites.

I go back to normal life now! :)

I agree with Jason.

[billyf]

Cavern Class is meant to be a bridge between OW and Overhead.
It doesn’t make since for a diver with double to go back to a single take to take cavern, and skipping cavern is just plain lunacy (and it violates training standards, at least for the Agencies I teach)
The same with rebreathers that’s why the current CCR Cave program is crap! The current implementation of Cave should have been rewritten to train divers in OC or CCR. Cave Diver first CCR is only a tool for diving, just like scooters, doubles and so on!
Why would a CCR diver want to go back to a single tank to do cavern.
Soon you will see students showing up to take cavern never having dove on OC, as OW classes are starting in CCR.
I took half of my Cavern Class in a single tank and the second half in doubles. Class was interrupted by a hurricane and took several weeks to reschedule.

[Jaydubya]

I did Cavern in doubles because those are the only tanks I had :)

[DA Aquamaster]

Soon you will see students showing up to take cavern never having dove on OC, as OW classes are starting in CCR.
It's roughly similar to a student pilot learning to fly in a twin engine aircraft and thus getting both a private pilot and multi-engine check ride on the same date. It then begs the question of whether they are *qualified* to fly less complex single engine aircraft, but it is clear that having them take a single engine course of instruction would be pretty stupid if they can demonstrate the ability to perform the required single engine skills and procedures.

Asking a CCR diver to dive open circuit for cavern, intro and cave classes would be equally stupid but perhaps a far greater challenge. Worse, it would serve no purpose as they would be learning in a configuration they will never use outside the class environment.

The standards need to catch up with the real world.

[WJH]

I know it's an old post but I was bored today so went for an exploration in the core of the CDF... lol

Cavern divers are in the realm of recreational diving. Intro and up are in the Tech realm of scuba diving.

If I have a request for Cavern in doubles, I will suggest an extra day (will depends on 'doubles' experience/cert) to get to Intro. It does not make sense diving cavern on doubles. Limited penetration, always in ambient light. Don't get me wrong, it can be done. It' s a bit like sidemount in cavern! An OW sidemount certified diver looking at cavern training should be advised to go straight to Intro. And that is what is going on here, in Mexico. Maybe different views in Florida sites.

I go back to normal life now! :)

I respectfully disagree. To don double tanks for the first time for Cavern class I agree would be a mistake. However, if a diver is already profiicient diving double tanks the advantages are multilple: Additional inertia to aid in getting into the cavern against outgoing flow (not always a factor), avoiding the hassle of changing out single tanks after every dive (a big plus!), learning to handle gear and procedures in the same gear that one will be required to use for Cave class, and making the dives in one's usual and comfortable gear configuration rather than going back to using a single tank setup for these dives.

WJH

[FW]

I respectfully disagree. To don double tanks for the first time for Cavern class I agree would be a mistake. However, if a diver is already profiicient diving double tanks the advantages are multilple: Additional inertia to aid in getting into the cavern against outgoing flow (not always a factor), avoiding the hassle of changing out single tanks after every dive (a big plus!), learning to handle gear and procedures in the same gear that one will be required to use for Cave class, and making the dives in one's usual and comfortable gear configuration rather than going back to using a single tank setup for these dives.

WJH
I think you misunderstand what he is suggesting. He is saying that if a diver already has been diving doubles, he should take both cavern and intro together, since he would be bored in just the cavern.

[WJH]

I think you misunderstand what he is suggesting. He is saying that if a diver already has been diving doubles, he should take both cavern and intro together, since he would be bored in just the cavern.

THAT is a totally separate issue, and not at all how I read the post. In Florida I might agree with him. In MO, however, you will get bored pretty quickly with the caverns available, but Intro Cave will give you the skills and qualifications to do a great many interesting dives while building a great skill set.

WJH

[RN]

I think you misunderstand what he is suggesting. He is saying that if a diver already has been diving doubles, he should take both cavern and intro together, since he would be bored in just the cavern.

I disagree with this. Just because someone has experience in doubles doesn't mean there will be proficiency in maintaining buoyancy and trim, running a reel, air shares, etc. Sometimes it's good to get those basic skills and then take some time to work on them before venturing farther into the cave. I've had students with lots of experience in doubles, and even AN/DP and Trimix that couldn't do an air share without going vertical. Those divers need practice before coming back for Intro.

[CaveBuddy95]

Thanks for reviving the topic, didn't think it would awake such interest but that's a good sign.
As far as I read the last posts, I can see there's been some confusion with my statement. Maybe due to the fact that English is not my mother tongue.
Here, where I live, in Mexico, it is discouraged to take cavern in backmount. SO it is for sidemount divers. Let me explain what I think the reason is. We are the second cave diving destination (arguable :) ) so if a diver is interested in taking OH training and it happens that this diver is, let say, OC Trimix diver or CCR normoxic or DSAT Tec Deep Sidemount diver, he will certainly look at doing at least his Intro to Cave class. I say at least because it could happen that the Full Cave being a bit dounting and/or expensive for this diver.
If this diver comes to me for Intro to Cave training, I will just ask him 2 questions as for 'how' does he intend to take the course:
- are you going to dive doubles or sidemount?
- if doubles, what is your procedure for valve shut down drill?
(I'm no CCR INtro to cave instructor...yet!)
So, I am not saying a CCR diver or an OC trimix diver should go back to backmounted single for cavern, no, I am not saying that.

Forest understood me. And I particularly agree with RN in the sense that 'doubles' experience does not mean a go ahead for OH training.
Even sidemount. It is getting out there and everywhere. It is just a question of time until I have someone asking for cavern in sidemount...Honestly, I'd rather this diver takes the training up a notch, that is to Intro to Cave. It is just an additional day of training and it is worth every penny. :)

That is me going to check if my thread for used DUI has had some hits.. See you!

:)

[DA Aquamaster]

I disagree with this. Just because someone has experience in doubles doesn't mean there will be proficiency in maintaining buoyancy and trim, running a reel, air shares, etc. Sometimes it's good to get those basic skills and then take some time to work on them before venturing farther into the cave. I've had students with lots of experience in doubles, and even AN/DP and Trimix that couldn't do an air share without going vertical. Those divers need practice before coming back for Intro.There is a difference between "experience" in doubles and "proficiency" in doubles.

I think it makes complete sense for a technical diver proficient in doubles to take cavern and intro together, and if that diver thinks he is proficient, it makes a good initial plan to do cavern and intro together, just as it makes zero sense for that diver to revert back to a single for cavern class.

However, the instructor will be the ultimate judge of whether the student is proficient not only in doubles but in the cavern class and as such the instructor determines if the student will even pass Cavern, progess to and potentially pass an Intro class.

Show me a poorly qualified/incompetent diver at any level and I'll show you a poorly qualified/incompetent instructor who passed him. The issue here is not whether a diver is in doubles or a single, but whether instructors are excercising sufficient discretion and judgment in terms of who starts and who passes their courses.

[Jaydubya]

If my Cavern course had been planned ahead of time I would have taken the Intro combination. However, it was more like "We need another person to make Cavern worth doing. The class is on Friday. Are you in?" If I had known about that terrible disease known as the cave bug, I never would have said yes ;)

[RN]

Thanks for reviving the topic, didn't think it would awake such interest but that's a good sign.
As far as I read the last posts, I can see there's been some confusion with my statement. Maybe due to the fact that English is not my mother tongue.
Here, where I live, in Mexico, it is discouraged to take cavern in backmount. SO it is for sidemount divers. Let me explain what I think the reason is. We are the second cave diving destination (arguable :) ) so if a diver is interested in taking OH training and it happens that this diver is, let say, OC Trimix diver or CCR normoxic or DSAT Tec Deep Sidemount diver, he will certainly look at doing at least his Intro to Cave class. I say at least because it could happen that the Full Cave being a bit dounting and/or expensive for this diver.
If this diver comes to me for Intro to Cave training, I will just ask him 2 questions as for 'how' does he intend to take the course:
- are you going to dive doubles or sidemount?
- if doubles, what is your procedure for valve shut down drill?
(I'm no CCR INtro to cave instructor...yet!)
So, I am not saying a CCR diver or an OC trimix diver should go back to backmounted single for cavern, no, I am not saying that.

Forest understood me. And I particularly agree with RN in the sense that 'doubles' experience does not mean a go ahead for OH training.
Even sidemount. It is getting out there and everywhere. It is just a question of time until I have someone asking for cavern in sidemount...Honestly, I'd rather this diver takes the training up a notch, that is to Intro to Cave. It is just an additional day of training and it is worth every penny. :)

That is me going to check if my thread for used DUI has had some hits.. See you!

:)

Jason, what agency are you teaching through? Most of the agencies I teach through all require 4 days for cavern/intro. A couple of them have exceptions, but they also have prerequisites that have to be met before a 3 day class can be done. There is one agency that doesn't specify number of days, but the norm is 4 days, even with that agency. I interned a 3 day cavern/intro and it made for very long days. I don't think the student got as much out of the class. I learned from that experience that I will never offer a 3 day cavern/intro course. I can barely do it in 4 days!

[CaveBuddy95]

Hi RN,
I teach under IANTD.
I guess you are familiar with their standards. It says 90' bottom time, in 4 to 6 dives. In 4 days it is possible but the diver has to have the essential skills under control. Otherwise it is going to be 5 days (at least). And that is if diver takes Cavern-Intro in one go. If diver is already cavern certified, the upgrade to Intro could then take only 3 days. This also depends on his acquired knowledge during cavern training.

J

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I think you misunderstand what he is suggesting. He is saying that if a diver already has been diving doubles, he should take both cavern and intro together, since he would be bored in just the cavern.

I disagree, mostly because I don't see how diving a familiar configuration would affect the enjoyment of diving in an unfamiliar environment.


I was completely happy with getting comfortable in doubles, previous to cavern class, and continuing through cavern, intro, apprentice, and cave with lots of time in between class while gaining experience with the new skillsets involved with each class. I knew by that time I wanted to dive caves, so starting cavern class in a single tank and modified(at best) OW gear would IMO have been foolish... as that experience wouldn't have carried through to further classes as well with a significant change in gear.

[Slüdge]

and modified(at best) OW gear

That's not the way it was designed. Open Water configuration. No need to modify anything. You don't NEED a backplate. You don't NEED a 7' hose. The cavern course was designed to dive in exactly the configuration you use in open water. Jacket BC, AIR-2, split fins - whatever you use in open water. But if you normally use doubles in open water, I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to use them in a cavern class.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Quite a few instructors require a 7' hose, whether the standards dictate it or not is irrelevant. My "at best" in the text you quoted covers a completely OW configuration.

[RN]

Hi RN,
I teach under IANTD.
I guess you are familiar with their standards. It says 90' bottom time, in 4 to 6 dives. In 4 days it is possible but the diver has to have the essential skills under control. Otherwise it is going to be 5 days (at least). And that is if diver takes Cavern-Intro in one go. If diver is already cavern certified, the upgrade to Intro could then take only 3 days. This also depends on his acquired knowledge during cavern training.

J

Okay, makes sense now. The way I was reading your earlier post was that you taught cavern and intro in 3 days.

[FW]

I disagree, ....

I hope you aren't disagreeing with me, because I was only trying to clarify what Jason was saying :-)

[adam0321]

you taught cavern and intro in 3 days.

I know of a shop that used to do that..add another day and you got full cave with a possible no mount as a graduation dive :)

no I am not revealing the shops name in open forum. Just know that this was about 6 years ago and last time I went to that shop (2 months ago) none of the original instructors where there and they has almost no cave/tech gear in stock

[CaveBuddy95]

Cool chat, I like this exchange of ideas.
As long as there will be foreign languages, there will be wars..!! :) Just kidding, war sucks!
:)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I hope you aren't disagreeing with me, because I was only trying to clarify what Jason was saying :-)

Nah, just the clarified statement :)