Tightest Sidemount Cave System ?

[Gregthecaver]

The thread about Royal got me thinking about this. I have heard that Convict and Branford Springs are 2 of the most restrictive passage caves.Is this true? What are some springs that any of you know about that are almost suicidal tight ? AND LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD, NO,I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO GO TO THESE SPRINGS AND HAVE NO DESIRE TO GO TO THEM MYSELF.JUST MAKING THAT CLEAR. So what do you think are the most advanced sidemount caves or areas?

Greg

The thread about Royal got me thinking about this. I have heard that Convict and Branford Springs are 2 of the most restrictive passage caves.Is this true? What are some springs that any of you know about that are almost suicidal tight ? AND LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD, NO,I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO GO TO THESE SPRINGS AND HAVE NO DESIRE TO GO TO THEM MYSELF.JUST MAKING THAT CLEAR. So what do you think are the most advanced sidemount caves or areas?
Greg

Most cave systems have 'restrictive' or 'tight' passages that don't happen to be at the entrance and the terms 'restrictive' and 'tight' are very subjective.

I know of four (4) classifications of 'tight' (there are probably more):
1) Backmount Tight (squeeze through with backmount)
2) Sidemount Tight (squeeze through with sidemount rig)
3) No-mount Tight (squeeze through pushing tanks)
4) Woody Jasper Tight (not humanly possible, but there is a line in there)
:roll:

[Tegg]

The thread about Royal got me thinking about this. I have heard that Convict and Branford Springs are 2 of the most restrictive passage caves.Is this true? What are some springs that any of you know about that are almost suicidal tight ? AND LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD, NO,I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO GO TO THESE SPRINGS AND HAVE NO DESIRE TO GO TO THEM MYSELF.JUST MAKING THAT CLEAR. So what do you think are the most advanced sidemount caves or areas?

Greg

Honestly, you may never hear of the "tightest" or "most advanced" sidemount caves...

TJ, I like #4.... hahaha... seen a few of those...

[SLIM]

4) Woody Jasper Tight (not humanly possible, but there is a line in there)


You know TJ, that gives a whole new meaning to he word got a woody in the cave diving comunity. Or did you see the woody in there.

SLIM :-D

[rchrds]

Convict is no where close. Branford is nasty- but not sidemount. No mount only due to the tube shape just prior to the big room- but gets nice after that. (har har har.). Another horrific one that most dont think about is Bathtub- long after the end of the line (I pulled the one I put in) goes no-mount with a single 40, and then the turns are almost too tight for the tank length. Washtub is another cool Woody line- sweet nurd gate in the beginning with extremely sharp lstone that pokes and cuts everything- drops semi-deep to a mud trough- I figured out why Woody quit really fast. Just ran into another of his on the withlacoochie this weekend- two consecutive one bottle off thin restrictions with silt everywhere and black water- lots of fun- the line is in tatters- old layed-style line too. good stuff.

I would have to say Branford takes the cake easily- Only because the restriction is almost 100 feet long and so low- this has been backed up by the fact that in all the years having a shop over top, and since, only one person has ever passed the restriction. And hasn't gone back.

Oh- forgot another basket of suck- Edwards- both bottles off against high flow at 160' almost 3000 feet back in low viz. Has all the makings of a sweet dive.

Ask Hemphill as well. He has tried mine, and he's seen a bunch I havent down south.

As with the above- this is no recommendation of places to dive. I've already tried to die once, it does not come recommended. (A little pricey to boot.) Stick to the nice places and work your way smaller if you want.

j

[curtschu]

I'm not sure how to form this question... But the references to Woody Jasper seem to infer the he is not around anymore. What has come of him? One of my last dives before taking a break from cave diving was at Apopka Blue with him. Any information would be great.

[Cindy]

I ran into Woody at the FSS Cave Cavort. He is alive and busy. He was telling some great stories of the filming of "The Cave" as he was in charge of underwater special effects. You just have to watch those cavers when they get some boom. Someone needs to record that man's story telling. :)

[curtschu]

Didn't Gene Broome get in there at least once? I seem to remember him telling me he has no mounted it a couple of times. Speaking of old cavers Is Broome still in the business? last I heard he was selling for Cochrane.

[rchrds]

Didn't Gene Broome get in there at least once? I seem to remember him telling me he has no mounted it a couple of times. Speaking of old cavers Is Broome still in the business? last I heard he was selling for Cochrane.

Nope- Gene only got to the beginning of the major restriction. I recovered his shovel for him.

J

[Gregthecaver]

The thread about Royal got me thinking about this. I have heard that Convict and Branford Springs are 2 of the most restrictive passage caves.Is this true? What are some springs that any of you know about that are almost suicidal tight ? AND LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD, NO,I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO GO TO THESE SPRINGS AND HAVE NO DESIRE TO GO TO THEM MYSELF.JUST MAKING THAT CLEAR. So what do you think are the most advanced sidemount caves or areas?

Greg

Honestly, you may never hear of the "tightest" or "most advanced" sidemount caves...

TJ, I like #4.... hahaha... seen a few of those...


Hehe...yeah I figured the best dive holes would be some of the private ones that on a few souls know about ;-)

[curtschu]

I have been around cave diving since the late 80s and the same questions were asked then. I'm sure there has to be a cave out there in the woods somewhere that has not been found yet. But You'll find everything that is close to civilization a been found, maybe not dove much but you'll find line in there. It's the wholy grail of caving.. virgin passage. I am think places like Brier's might have some going passage back in the pool of naked frogs but I don't know if anyone has humped tanks back there. Anyway just thinking outloud again.

[NitroxWarrior]

If you want tight, just go out to little devil, theres like 5 no-mount restrictions in there...

[Line Squirrel]

If you want tight, just go out to little devil, theres like 5 no-mount restrictions in there...

Little Devil has major blockages at the entrances (both entrances) Brian Kakuk and I tried to get in there a couple months ago, this past January I think. Because of his experiance, Brian took the lead. I watched him pull out rocks the size of basketballs AFTER removing sticks and branches. He couldn't get anywhere...I was nothing more than a spectator at this point. Little Devil will take a lot of work to reopen the passage to what was already a very tight, and short, sidemout cave.

[JDR]

This is the best thread on the CDF in a while. It would be great to hear some detailed stories of tight spaces. I've only been in a few but those were some of my favorite cave diving moments.

Cheers,
Jamie

[NitroxWarrior]

i didnt know it has become so clogged up. last time i was out there i wasnt attempting any penetration...

[bmwcaves]

curtschu wrote:I have been around cave diving since the late 80s and the same questions were asked then. I'm sure there has to be a cave out there in the woods somewhere that has not been found yet. But You'll find everything that is close to civilization a been found, maybe not dove much but you'll find line in there. It's the wholy grail of caving.. virgin passage. I am think places like Brier's might have some going passage back in the pool of naked frogs but I don't know if anyone has humped tanks back there.


To answer a couple of Questions for you.

1. Briars is a cave in Ocala. It has been dived in, various places, not much passage. To see a nice picture of it, go here:http://www.karstconservancy.org/

2. The "Pool Naked Frogs" is located in Climax Cave, Climax Ga. Most of Climax has been dived by Paul Smith and others. Not many people want to drag tanks back through the sand crawls on a 10 hour trip just to lay a few more feet of line. ( If you know of anyone that wants to drag my tanks for me, let me know) :)

3. One more thing....you'd be suprised at how much virgin cave there is out there, (and it isn't all small stuff either) There's more to life than just Peacock.

Brian

[Signal 20]

3. One more thing....you'd be suprised at how much virgin cave there is out there, (and it isn't all small stuff either) There's more to life than just Peacock.

Brian

you mean there other caves out there other than Ginnie and Peacock? :-D

[rchrds]

Brian beat me to it with the POTNF- and folks have humped tanks back there. (Amazing who I can sucker into a crappy trip) and there is still more passage that could be done- I didnt see all the passage that is on a map that I have seen. (BMW do you have that one- could you send it to me?)

Little Devil isn't that small- it is actually a really pretty 40s dive. I didnt even have to take the tanks off. There is only really one major restriction- the rest you just have to be a little slinky. (your relative proportions may vary.)

I was wondering about the entrances- I hadnt been to Ginnie in years and canoed up there a month or so ago - looked like the entrances to LD were completely covered- I'm sure its from the surface erosion- that would be a great restoration project for a few folks with buckets in conjunction with the management.

I'm with BMW- loads of virgin out there. Even close in. You just have to do the research and expand your techniques.

J

[bmwcaves]

Hey J,

I'll send you what I got on Climax.

Speaking of tight....I've never been there but I think John Jay did Dogwood spring years ago......no mount all the way back, yikes !
Is there even a place to turn around in there ??

[rchrds]

Hey J,
Speaking of tight....I've never been there but I think John Jay did Dogwood spring years ago......no mount all the way back, yikes !
Is there even a place to turn around in there ??

It's not really that small- but what a beautiful little cave. The problem is, that at the very back, the ceiling is unstable- the passage ends in a different sort of limestone that is quite poorly consolidated- parts like to fall off on you. I only went once- I didnt want to do any more damage by just being there. But if you can keep from the need to go to the extreme back of the cave- the front bit is very pretty and can easily be done with a no-mount or SM40s or 30s. The Berman/Masters map (FGC373 Dogwood Springs) is included in the update. Everything beyond what they called the breakdown restriction is bad news. You can turn around in the breakdown room, which is a slopey affair, but if careful, there is enough room. I'm not sure if I wore fins or not. I believe so.

J

[bmwcaves]

I'll take your word for it J.
If it's that friable, no need to ever go there and destroy it more.
There's plenty of stuff I can turn around in yet to finish. I'll enjoy it vicariously with the map !

[BillGraham]

Oh- forgot another basket of suck- Edwards- both bottles off against high flow at 160' almost 3000 feet back in low viz. Has all the makings of a sweet dive.
j

That's a freaky place. I've only been cave diving for a couple of years and my friends enjoy torturing me by taking me to caves like that. The flow shot me right out of that chimney like a cannon. I can't fathom being 3000 feet back in that thing, does it go under the river?

[rchrds]

That's a freaky place. I've only been cave diving for a couple of years and my friends enjoy torturing me by taking me to caves like that. The flow shot me right out of that chimney like a cannon. I can't fathom being 3000 feet back in that thing, does it go under the river?

Not where I am talking about- it leads away from the river, but yes- Edwards does go under the river, connects eventually to Suwannacoochie, which is a nice dive and can be done on backgas if you dont get sidetracked in a side passage- The really cool part, is both Edwards and Suwannacoochie blow dark water (to a varying degree) but there is a section in the very middle between the systems that is crystal clear blue. It's almost as if the two systems werent supposed to connect, but just happened to. (Water doesnt flow from one side to the other, either.) I like diving Edwards, but it has turned into quite a drive for me. Go there and wait for the train to go past while you are on deco. Now THAT is freaky.

Sorry for sidetracking the thread...

J

[Duncan Price]

Ogof Psygodyn Gwyn (cave of the white fish). Dived it in the 90's with two 21's lashed together and lights attached to the tanks which were pushed ahead like a sled. No fins. Not only is it tight but also has several Z bends.

[curtschu]

Duncan,

There is a picture on the Forum of you going into Silver Glen. Is this a worthwhile effort? That system is very close to were I live and I have always wanted to check it out. Is it sidemount only?

[Duncan Price]

There is a picture on the Forum of you going into Silver Glen. Is this a worthwhile effort? That system is very close to were I live and I have always wanted to check it out. Is it sidemount only?

The routes into the first room are low and high flow which I would guess means sidemount only.

Dives there are only allowed for scientific research purposes and Cindy Butler and I were lucky enough to accompany Tom Morris on a "bug hunting" trip there. The is no access for recreational diving. Sorry.

[rchrds]

There is a picture on the Forum of you going into Silver Glen. Is this a worthwhile effort? Is it sidemount only?

The routes into the first room are low and high flow which I would guess means sidemount only.

Dives there are only allowed for scientific research purposes and Cindy Butler and I were lucky enough to accompany Tom Morris on a "bug hunting" trip there. The is no access for recreational diving. Sorry.

All very true. Quite sidemount only, and smaller tanks are nicer in there. Particularly if you manage to get off on the wrong line- (there are many going to the same place via different routes.) Easy to get stuck and have to back out. We just took a bottle off and drove on.

On a funny semi-related note- We made a crossing of Lake George during the night one night in my RRC(rubber raiding craft :twisted: )- there were schools of fish near the surface and as we approched them at 20 knots they would jump out of the water- over the boat- at about head level- We kept getting hit by these foot long fish- C kept having to toss them from the deck and I almost got knocked off the sponson when one hit me square in the head at the tiller... Everyone was feeling physically abused after the 30 minute ride- We still laugh about "fish attacks."

J

[Limestone Cowboy]

Jason, have you ever dove some of the tight springs on the Chassowitzka? Crab Creek is probably the longest there, but I haven't seen all of it. Backmounted Y'd 72 is as low as I go, LOL. Seen the bucket in Bubba Spring there?

Drew

[rchrds]

Jason, have you ever dove some of the tight springs on the Chassowitzka? Crab Creek is probably the longest there, but I haven't seen all of it. Backmounted Y'd 72 is as low as I go, LOL. Seen the bucket in Bubba Spring there?

Drew

Nope- this is an area I havent had the chance to look over- I'd love to take the powered canoe out there some time- hmmm gotta be down there next weekend (well, further south anyway) perhaps I'll take a day on the river.

BTW- you know of a place south of there named Buford Spring? PM me.

Thanks!

J

[allcoast]

Didn't Gene Broome get in there at least once? I seem to remember him telling me he has no mounted it a couple of times. Speaking of old cavers Is Broome still in the business? last I heard he was selling for Cochrane.


My father is not still diving, he is a Mortgage Broker in Central Florida now.

[jj1987]

Since this old thread got bumped, Royal is no where near the most restrictive sidemount cave....mainly because it's *not* sidemount. It's similar in color to Little River (but not that large) with amazing amounts of silt (so bad that it's nearly zero viz going in at places), the line is slack all over, no flow to clear things out, and there's 2-3 lines in certain places...it's fairly beat up, too, it's not like you're getting pristine cave for your efforts.

I just share this because several people have dove this system in OW, and have seen the somewhat large cave entrance leading them to wonder if these reports are inaccurate. Marchand and I fell into that category and checked it out one day due to the misinformation (sm only), and floods of 3rd 4th 5th, etc hand reports yet nothing first hand. Wouldn't surprise me to get blasted for diving this system, but part of my motivation for getting full cave was to see where things go, and not having to hear second hand reports all the time.

FWIW here's an "after" shot of the basin. It was clear viz at first, you can see the silt trail rolling out of the cave almost 45minutes after our dive. I don't think the risk involved in this dive is worth the reward.-
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs158.snc1/5894_557007771815_201400707_33477830_6660150_n.jpg

[JahJahwarrior]

Holy Thread Bump Batman!

I wasn't even diving when this thread was started, but I think Dogwood and the jump at Jug Hole are both pretty tight. Dogwood requires tank removal and moving some rocks around, but the restrictions aren't very long and you are pretty shallow. Seemed like every 20 feet, you hit another no mount restriction. Jug is sidemount, but so short, I was scraping and I'm a thin guy.

Which also brings up the problem of detailing tightness. Sidemount and no mount don't always necessarily give a good indication of tightness. Sidemount only means you have enough width to avoid taking tanks off. The sidemount restriction at the jump in Jug is much tighter than the no mount restrictions at Dogwood, but the Dogwood restrictions aren't wide enough to allow passage with tanks on.

[jj1987]

Holy Thread Bump Batman!

I wasn't even diving when this thread was started, but I think Dogwood and the jump at Jug Hole are both pretty tight. Dogwood requires tank removal and moving some rocks around, but the restrictions aren't very long and you are pretty shallow. Seemed like every 20 feet, you hit another no mount restriction. Jug is sidemount, but so short, I was scraping and I'm a thin guy.

Which also brings up the problem of detailing tightness. Sidemount and no mount don't always necessarily give a good indication of tightness. Sidemount only means you have enough width to avoid taking tanks off. The sidemount restriction at the jump in Jug is much tighter than the no mount restrictions at Dogwood, but the Dogwood restrictions aren't wide enough to allow passage with tanks on.
I don't think either of those 2 even come close. Stop by Branford springs one day and then read Jason's exploration report afterwards, it will make your spine tingle!

Too many big caves out there for me to have ANY interest in crap like that, just reading about it makes me tense up.

[AMW]

We have the odd cave with constricted passages well Ok most of them :rollguy due in no part to being a geographical small area (UK).

The tightest sumps I have passed was about twenty years ago in a cave system called Slaughter swallet (Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire). My self and Gareth Hardman had already passed steam way sump two into dry passage when we decided to have a go at down steam sump one (about two hours into the cave) the vis is always zero water temperature about 10C sump one was a rift straight down tight against back and front (hand held cylinder)followed by a squeezes up into air in all 10M long this lead to a small canal onto sump two the entrance was tight and the best way in was to push of the back wall and force yourself in(no fins and wet suit diving) then a tube to a small air bell with sump three body sized and 20M long. This surfaced in a chamber but after 25M closed down to a very low rift 200mm high but 5M wide taking all the water.

I am now a lot older (an believe less in my invulnerability :smt100) and would not try this level of tight sump again.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/Image12.jpg
I have no under water pictures of tight bits, this is me exiting tradesman's entrance Port-Yr-Ogof some time mid 1980,s.


Andrew

[Webmaster]

And of course 'tight' is completely relative to a degree.

What is simply a little small to one person may be impassable to someone else. A concept I am very familiar with.

[fixxervi6]

And of course 'tight' is completely relative to a degree.

What is simply a little small to one person may be impassable to someone else. A concept I am very familiar with.

I was going to say.. source tunnel in Jug Hole is as tight as it gets for me, any smaller and I'm not fitting.

[FW]

And of course 'tight' is completely relative to a degree.

What is simply a little small to one person may be impassable to someone else. A concept I am very familiar with.
Or even the same person a few year later. I suspect Jason would have trouble doing Branford Spring today :-)

[akcaver]

My tightest are all either in the Wacissa or in the Woodville area... there are plenty of "springs" that ive been in with a single 85, no fins, no harness or BC that are fun to 'climb' in. The reason nobody thinks there are nice caves on the Wacissa is because you havent been past the entrances!

My tightest restrictions have been dry caving though... The Birth Canal in Glory Hole Cave and the Grim Triangle of Death in Waterfall both come to mind fairly often :)

[AMW]

As they size does matter, I cave (some times) with some one who is 1.90M tall and weighs 95Kg were as I am 1.75M and 70Kg he some times takes a bit more effort through tight bits than I do. Although as I get older I seem to be getting less flexible :smt102

Andrew

[PatrickWidmann]

Mexico has some pretty tight caves!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBSK9O0Du1A

cheers
P

[RN]

Mexico has some pretty tight caves!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBSK9O0Du1A

cheers
P

I'm sure there are smaller passages in Mexico, but the ones in Mexico are a pretty decent size compared to some of the passages in North Florida.

[Squirrel Girl]

I was thinking of JugHole, too. Not the two restrictions on the way in, but the bedding plane in the side tunnel? The other place that comes to mind is Blue Springs, Arkansas. Watch the video.

[FW]

I have a great quote from Morgan. I took him into upstream Cow over a couple years ago, and he couldn't get in backmounted. Since that time, he has learned sidemount. I asked him if he had any trouble getting in Cow now. He said:"I slipped in like a weasel in a woodpile" :rollguy

[DogDiver]

I always wanted to dive Rock Bluff until I saw the video of Agnes doing that dive.....I've heard of guys using thirds just getting through the first restriction.....

[SuPrBuGmAn]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/Image12.jpg

Storm Troopers cave dive?

[Kevin Carlisle]

Storm Troopers cave dive?

Use the force they did!!

[FW]

I am pretty sure I have an answer for you now, it has to be Tank Cave in Australia :(

[JCGoodwin]

Greet read this thread spanning the years it encompasses.
One of the greatest things about cave diving is the exploration that remains out there.
My journey is only beginning and hope to someday get there but training and experience are cruel masters.
Cave diving stories are a thing of beauty to a Yankee trapped in the snow and ice!
This is a excellent thread to bring back for 05'.
It will be interesting to see what the 11' take on tight passage will be.

JCG

[Brent]

Here's a funny story about sidemounting in the early 90's At Madison Blue there used to be a passage called the Century tunnel. I say "used" to be because it totally collapsed in on itself in the mid 90's time frame. Anyway, the tunnel itself did not require sidemount but at the end of the passage, the line went thru a window about four feet off the ground. This window was, at best 6x6 inches and yet the line passed thru it so our dive team always assumed that there was an alternate way around this wndow. Now you "old guys" who dove this passage know how small the Century Tunnel was but we still continued to search off and on for the longest time. Finally one day I ran into a guy named Roger Werner who was an active explorer in that time frame and told him about the line and to my amazement, Roger says, " I know all about that line. I'm the guy who laid it" So obviousely my next question was, " how do you get thru the window and how far does it go"? For those of you who know Roger the answer should have been obvious. He says to me, " I tied my line to a rock and tossed it thru the window! So much for our exploration! It's a shame none of you guys will ever get to see this "work of art"

Brent

[FW]

Here's a funny story about sidemounting in the early 90's At Madison Blue there used to be a passage called the Century tunnel. I say "used" to be because it totally collapsed in on itself in the mid 90's time frame. Anyway, the tunnel itself did not require sidemount but at the end of the passage, the line went thru a window about four feet off the ground. This window was, at best 6x6 inches and yet the line passed thru it so our dive team always assumed that there was an alternate way around this wndow. Now you "old guys" who dove this passage know how small the Century Tunnel was but we still continued to search off and on for the longest time. Finally one day I ran into a guy named Roger Werner who was an active explorer in that time frame and told him about the line and to my amazement, Roger says, " I know all about that line. I'm the guy who laid it" So obviousely my next question was, " how do you get thru the window and how far does it go"? For those of you who know Roger the answer should have been obvious. He says to me, " I tied my line to a rock and tossed it thru the window! So much for our exploration! It's a shame none of you guys will ever get to see this "work of art"

Brent

Woody Jasper has been known to do that as well :-D

[TONY CHANEY]

Best thread I have read in a long while. I really enjoy the stories from days gone by. Please keep them coming.

[FW]

I am pretty sure I have an answer for you now, it has to be Tank Cave in Australia :(
Tony and Rubis mentioned this post in the Agnes Milowka thread. There is one thing I don't like in THIS thread. If prople keep looking for tighter caves to explore, there will be more accidents like Agnes'.

I dive sidemount, and explore some caves most people wouldn't dream of going into. However, my main goal is to find new cave, not set any damn records. If the cave gets too dangerous, I leave. There are plenty of other caves in the world that haven't been explored at all, to risk my life for a few more yards of passage.

There is an old saying among pilots: "There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold, pilots". It is interesting that Agnes mentioned "pushing the envelope" on her website. That is actually a pilot's experssion derived from testing the flight "envelope" of a new aircraft. It is why many test pilots have died.

[TONY CHANEY]

If the cave gets too dangerous, I leave. There are plenty of other caves in the world that haven't been explored at all, to risk my life for a few more yards of passage.

+1. I know my limits and I know when to not push them. I am so young in my cave training and for now, main line if still fun to me. Forrest, sorry for your lost of Agnes. I was checking out her pictures a while back, post Peacock conneting report. Damn what a great diver she was.

[Slüdge]

I was checking out her pictures a while back, post Peacock connecting report.

I am fortunate to have the draft copy of the upcoming UWS saved on my computer, and I just went back and read her and James' article on Peacock/Baptizing. When I did the proofing several weeks ago I made a mental note of a few questions I would ask the next time I saw her, which I assumed would be at the next workshop.

Darn.

[RN]

tony and rubis mentioned this post in the agnes milowka thread. There is one thing i don't like in this thread. If prople keep looking for tighter caves to explore, there will be more accidents like agnes'.

I dive sidemount, and explore some caves most people wouldn't dream of going into. However, my main goal is to find new cave, not set any damn records. If the cave gets too dangerous, i leave. There are plenty of other caves in the world that haven't been explored at all, to risk my life for a few more yards of passage.

Exactly!!!

[Marc Bryan]

There is an old saying among pilots: "There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold, pilots". It is interesting that Agnes mentioned "pushing the envelope" on her website. That is actually a pilot's experssion derived from testing the flight "envelope" of a new aircraft. It is why many test pilots have died.

I use a variation of that saying in all my classes. I just substitute "diver", for "pilot". It is always something I keep in the forefront of my own mind when diving new to me cave, or new to me passages.

[JE]

IE: July....little devil....backdoor to Bonnet......Wekiva etc ! Woody/Cindy & TM can all tell you some great stories{ Gene Broome, uhm..........Uncle Gene........Glad to hear he is still around.
Enlcosed is an unlined sink in NW Iowa.....thisl is my friend JoJo who is doing great now, after many months of recovery from two strokes, & open heart surgery.....the pond is in her back yard, & I've already asked her if we all can come visit ^)^ ! She told me an underground river flows 100' below this pond with clear water. I know of only one other spot with karst in Iowa.....that is in Osage.
take care. Yak

3766

[gasdiver]

I use a variation of that saying in all my classes. I just substitute "diver", for "pilot". It is always something I keep in the forefront of my own mind when diving new to me cave, or new to me passages.

I heard the diver version of this saying, for the first time, over 30 years ago.

[DA Aquamaster]

I dive sidemount, and explore some caves most people wouldn't dream of going into. However, my main goal is to find new cave, not set any damn records. If the cave gets too dangerous, I leave. There are plenty of other caves in the world that haven't been explored at all, to risk my life for a few more yards of passage.

There is an old saying among pilots: "There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold, pilots". It is interesting that Agnes mentioned "pushing the envelope" on her website. That is actually a pilot's experssion derived from testing the flight "envelope" of a new aircraft. It is why many test pilots have died.It's worth noting that it is not just test pilots or new aircraft. For example, many jet aircraft have a "coffin corner" in the envelope since indicated airspeed goes down with increasing altitude while mach number goes up as altitude increases. In simple terms the minimum true airspeed you can fly the aircraft at rises with alitude until it intersects the maximum speed you can fly the aircraft at before you have control problems or have parts fall off. Consequently, in that area of the envelope just a few knots of airspeed may separate fatally too fast from fatally too slow and going just a little higher can move that margin to zero.

Whether it is pushing thirds, making visual jumps or pressing into restrictions or other cave hazards that could suddenly get interesting, the closer to the "edge" you get, the greater the risk, and you should be asking yourself whether its really some place you need or want to be.

[wingman]

Whether it is pushing thirds, making visual jumps or pressing into restrictions or other cave hazards that could suddenly get interesting, the closer to the "edge" you get, the greater the risk, and you should be asking yourself whether its really some place you need or want to be.

Another old addage with that from flying is the statement "I'd rather be on the ground wishing i was flying then flying and wishing i was on the ground."

[DA Aquamaster]

Another old addage with that from flying is the statement "I'd rather be on the ground wishing i was flying then flying and wishing i was on the ground."How about : The three most useless things to a pilot are:
1) altitude above you,
2) the runway behind you, and
3) fuel you left in the truck.

[LCF]

I've enjoyed reading this, but I keeping coming up with the same question: Do you guys really ENJOY cave this tight, or are you hoping it will open up into something more comfortable and more visually impressive? I know I don't mind going through a restriction, but I don't enjoy long sections of restricted passage. I dive caves mostly to look at them, and I don't see all that much when I'm wriggling through something unfriendly :)

[Bobby]

I can't speak for others but I always have the hope and mind set that it will open up into big passage. I have gotten into some long stuff mostly because it seemed better to move forward rather than attempt to turn in what I had just passed. As I have gotten a bit older though I have found that I will find a way to turn earlier and leave stupid (IMHO) small stuff for others. ;)

Bobby

[FW]

I have to agree with most of what Bobby said :-)

[netmage]

It took a very scary incident in cow to make me accept a backmount ccr and bailout as my wiskers... If they don't go - I don't go....

[RN]

It's a little bit of both. I go into tight passage looking for something more. I also enjoy the challenge of getting through tight passage. But I do always keep in mind that whatever I go through, I have to come back through.

[icestac]

I've enjoyed reading this, but I keeping coming up with the same question: Do you guys really ENJOY cave this tight, or are you hoping it will open up into something more comfortable and more visually impressive? I know I don't mind going through a restriction, but I don't enjoy long sections of restricted passage. I dive caves mostly to look at them, and I don't see all that much when I'm wriggling through something unfriendly :)

I enjoy 'intimate' cave like the borehole before the crypt... just beautiful IMO even though it is not sidemount. I can also enjoy low bedding planes like the entrance to Jug. But I don't enjoy small boreholes that last any longer than one body length.

[aainslie]

Tight sections can lead to huge cave. Ginnie is one example. the Crack is another. And there's a pretty cool section of Cow that suddenly opens up after some godawful crawling. The sudden opening is one of the biggest thrills a caver can have, IMHO.

It's also nice to know that your new find won't be visited by too many people after you.

[rchrds]

Pool of the naked frogs is not in Briars- that is in Climax Cave, GA. And yes, we (among others) have humped tanks back there, and yes, there is LOADS of virgin there- A whole layer of cave in the water below the dry cave portion. Getting there, however, is NOT easy. And people have taken tanks into Briars as well, though the results were less spectacular- there is passage, but not any where close to the same order.

[atedeschi]

I dont know if this should be another thread, but I would like to ask when pushing in an unknow passage either virgin or new to you what if it does not open up. How do you plan for that? I know some common sense plays a part but what about things you didn't realy think of or have learned. I been diving sm for a few years now and feel pretty squared away and been in some tight areas and sm only caves but this is always one of those things in the back in my mind. Besides just saying backup was wondering if anyone could elborate. PMs are welcomed as well as not to side track this thread to much.

[rchrds]

Actually, that's a really good question, only because there isn't a really solid answer- You have to be aware of what makes you uncomfortable, and keep a close eye on the conditions- passage composition (hard vs soft floor and ceiling, potential for silting) water flow, shape, and gear that you have on, among others. If I am working a very small passage, always in the back of my mind is "where am I going to turn around?" If you can't see a place ahead (for whatever reason, silt or turns) it just makes it that much more difficult. If I am getting through without wedging, then I feel fairly comfortable with continuing with all the gear I have on, and I will typically continue without changes, even if I can't see a place to turn around. Though my personal limit in this sort seems to be about 50-75 feet without a place to turn around. Once I find a good turn place, I will continue another 50-75 feet.
If I am wedging (hitting either both floor and ceiling, or both walls) then I will consider removing gear. First will be one tank- which makes an amazing difference, particularly with smaller tanks (40s 30s, etc.) This usually gives me the space side to side to pass through easily, and you can turn around in much smaller places with only one tank on. If I am wedging top to bottom- I will almost never continue past a place where I have to exhale to pass it, unless it is only a few inches or something. Extended passage like that I don't feel comfortable in, and is generally not a good idea, IMHO.
Often, I will work a passage like this over time- if the conditions allow, I will back out and leave things like fins (you can't back out of tiny stuff with fins easily) at the entrance to the restriction, until i know for sure that it continues and opens up again. Sometimes, I leave a tank, just to check things in the same fashion (but rarely beyond relaxed breath hold distance.) Sometimes you just have to leave and come back later with smaller gear. Another thing that helps is to bring a buddy (I don't generally have a buddy in very small stuff) and work out a "stuck" signal. (We use crossing the fins back and forth at the ankle.) I cannot tell you how many times Mike Tennant has pulled me backwards out of a place that I was completely stuck, and I have done the same for him. It's a good skill to know.
The cave isn't going anywhere, and you have the rest of your life to figure out how you are going to attack it.

I won't lie, there are places where I have not gone, (not many) that i felt were just barely too small for too long that made me uncomfortable. Over the years that I have been cave diving, those little passages left alone have paled in comparison to the rest of the virgin cave I have found, so they don't weigh heavily on my mind. If I never make it back to them, it won't hurt my feelings to leave them to the "next generation." (Funny to hear myself say that when I was constantly referred to as the next generation by Woody and Tom.)

[atedeschi]

Thanks, kind of what I was thinking, and I def agree I always keep looking for where I am going to turn around at. Never really thought about taking the fins off and I was always wondering about the top/bottom restrictions. The one in jug (to the right on the way in) I could not get my shoulders past, probably in a wetsuit and razor type harness but not with my nomad deflated and drysuit on. I also always wondered about these no mount caves (I havnt realy had the desire to try) but if its to tight to wear tanks it has to open up somehwere to be able to turn around with the tank. Thanks again for the post.

[AB8CD]

And of course 'tight' is completely relative to a degree.

What is simply a little small to one person may be impassable to someone else. A concept I am very familiar with.

I wanted to make that point as well... It is one thing watching a 115 lb thing slide through a restriction and another thing altogether for a 250 lb guy behind her!

[EEL]

I dont know if this should be another thread, but I would like to ask when pushing in an unknow passage either virgin or new to you what if it does not open up. How do you plan for that? I know some common sense plays a part but what about things you didn't realy think of or have learned. I been diving sm for a few years now and feel pretty squared away and been in some tight areas and sm only caves but this is always one of those things in the back in my mind. Besides just saying backup was wondering if anyone could elborate. PMs are welcomed as well as not to side track this thread to much.

Anthony,

Here is an entry from my log for a dive in small cave. I tried to convey my thoughts of backing out in a smallish tunnel.

Williford Spring Dive 6/16/2010
I did a dive today to extend the North (#2) source tunnel at Williford Spring. I dived with sidemounted AL40s; max depth was 25 FFW and the dive time was 39 minutes. The entrance to this spring is challenging as it has crazy high flow for a four foot long tunnel leading to the cavern. Once in it is only 35 feet to the jump on the right for the North Source tunnel. Here I removed my fins, and unclipped the 40s. With the fins left on the main line and the 40s out in front of me I eased in against the gentle flow of the passage ahead. The current line ended about 10 feet in and I tied off my reel and pressed on in a tunnel that was about 25-30 inches in diameter. I went very very slowly. The old line ended on top of a small hill. From here the passage dropped back down and meandered a little left and right. It was not very tight, but a little awkward as the rocks were very snagy. At each turn I was hoping the passage would either pinch down or open up, but if just continued on at about the same size. About 35-45 feet in I could see around the bend that the tunnel went up over another small rise about six feet ahead. I stopped here to evaluate what to do. As I looked ahead the ceiling percolation descended around me, and the vis went for 50+ to less than 3 feet. I guess this, because when I looked back I could no longer see my feet. Faced with the unknown difficulty of backing out of this rocky tube in greatly reduced visibility I had reached my comfort level for this dive. I locked down the reel, looped it around a rock and started moving backwards. I could not see much but just felt with my feet and kept the guide line visible just out of my right eye. I thought I was going slow, but actually must have been moving faster than on the way in since in a very short time I was back at my tie off. I noticed my reel must have pulled off here as the line was loose in the flow. I stopped at the tie off for a couple deep breaths and continued to back the last bit back to the main tunnel. Well that was easy; no where near as bad as I thought it would be when the percolation descended around me. I still had lots of gas and briefly entertained the thought of going back and fixing my loose line. Then I realized that coming back with full tanks was more prudent. The cave will always be there. I used the rest of my gas to look at the other 2 source leads in this cave; both look promising, but each has its own unique and troubling challenges. As always the scariest part of this dive is the exit out of the cavern with the high flow. No matter what you do you will go from 15 feet to 5 feet instantaneously? Best bet is to close your eyes, duck your head, blow and go. Now what is over that rise in the north source tunnel? I guess I will have to go back and find out…..

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Williford may have the highest flowing entrance that I have ever had to pull against. You the man Mark.

[Greenwood_60]

...if the conditions allow, I will back out and leave things like fins (you can't back out of tiny stuff with fins easily) at the entrance to the restriction...

This got me thinking, what do you guys do to ensure your fins are there when you come back? There is irony in the successful navigation of a tight passage that required the removal of your fins, to find out you have walk or crawl your way out of what should be the easy part of the cave.

Then I read this:

...With the fins left on the main line

Do you bring an extra double-ender or something, just for leaving your fins on the main line?

I really can't ever imagine wanting to squeeze through anything much longer than 2x the length of my body, and only that if someone has already confirmed there is something on the other side.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

An extra double ender is good for a crap load of situations. Keep an extra one in your pocket/pouch/whatever.

[OFG-1]

An extra double ender is good for a crap load of situations..

Yeah, that what all the lesbians say.

(Sludge, although not profane as such, does this still qualify as unsophisticated?)

[BgDadddy]

IDK... I got a kick out of it. :-p

[Xenia]

Mark,

Even though I have no clue about the system or these tight things, this log post was excellent and thank you for sharing this. It reminds me why I feel OK with Bobby pushing really tight stuff although I cannot understand it. It is the toughest thing to wait out of a little rabbit hole that he has gotten in and I know I cannot and don't want to follow. But we have our protocol, a buddy is good behind with gas or... just holding the main line.

I understand this passion of wanting to find a big room on the other side... although I don't share it. But it is good to remember there is always another day and it is always good to attack this with plenty of gas reserves.

I would guess that it is best to explore these systems no mount because you can back up easily. Why would you ever go superman on a hole that you are not sure you will be able to backup? Shouldn't all this exploration be done no mount? I am not doing any of this, just a philosophical question. Sorry for the ignorant question, just wondering from all these posts I have read here.

[John L.]

Hey Brian,
I was the one that went to crumbling cave a week or so before you did. Tell them all what a cave raining down on you is like! I had a big rock knock the reel right out of my hand, and dozens of brick sized rocks rain down on me. Lance Elder and I are old friends.


I'll take your word for it J.
If it's that friable, no need to ever go there and destroy it more.
There's plenty of stuff I can turn around in yet to finish. I'll enjoy it vicariously with the map !

[DeepSea]

John...HOW are you? Lance told me about your dive in the Pool Room. Interesting. Didn't you also go in Sumter Bat Cave? We pushed that to 138.

[EEL]

Mark,

I would guess that it is best to explore these systems no mount because you can back up easily. Why would you ever go superman on a hole that you are not sure you will be able to backup? Shouldn't all this exploration be done no mount? I am not doing any of this, just a philosophical question. Sorry for the ignorant question, just wondering from all these posts I have read here.

Xenia,

I chose side mount 40s for that dive as I prefer fully independent rigs for solo dives, and I used to do a lot of no-mount dives with an 80 w/Y-valve, but was never really comfortable without true redundancy. I also needed to be streamlined with all hands and feet available to kick, pull, grasp, and push in past the horrendous flow at the entrance. I agree this dive needed a no-mount configuration, and I fully expected to have to back out of the tunnel. Once I took off the tanks I clipped them together and I was essentially in the same no-mount configuration I would be with a single tank. Having the tanks together out in front made it fairly easy to back out by feeling with my feet. This tunnel has decent flow and is very rocky. I would never have gone in there if it had no flow or deep silt.

Hope to meet you and Bobby at the springs some time,

Mark

[Xenia]

Thanks for the response. It makes sense although I do not know the system.

Hope to meet you too! We dive the tourist systems since I am holding Bobby back with my inexperience. ;) We may see you around there.

[Rubis]

I've enjoyed reading this, but I keeping coming up with the same question: Do you guys really ENJOY cave this tight, or are you hoping it will open up into something more comfortable and more visually impressive? I know I don't mind going through a restriction, but I don't enjoy long sections of restricted passage. I dive caves mostly to look at them, and I don't see all that much when I'm wriggling through something unfriendly :)

Lynne, you will see how the caves opens up for you once you go to sidemount ;)

[GeorgiaDoc]

Yeah, that what all the lesbians say.

That Funny!!!

[CaveBuddy95]

Lynne, you will see how the caves opens up for you once you go to sidemount ;)

+1
:D
See you soon Lynne!

(post #307....sounds familiar this number...!!)