which scooter

[phillip1]

I am considering buying a scooter and I don't know anything about scooters which are the best compact scooters around?, since I live in the DR reliability is a major factor over performance as it will be a real hassle to send parts back etc..
Oceanic Mako
SS N19
others?

thanks

[DA Aquamaster]

I am not a fan of the stock Mako as it is a bit anemic. When properly modded they will keep up with an N19 (in the same size and weight class) but the Mako hull is still delicate in comparison to an N19.

Dive Xtra's X scooter is very nice in terms of being compact and lightweight, but there is some debate about their use of a brushless motor, the resulting extensive use of electronics, the slight loss in power, and the pros and cons about potential relaibility compared to a brushed motor. It is a little slower and has a bit less run time than an N19, but is very travel freindly.

Personally, I like the N19 and if I were to invest in a new scooter that would probably be the one.

If weight is not a factor the UV-18 may be an option. It weighs 20 pounds more and you take a slight hit in speed and range, but it uses less expensive, less maintenence intensive and readily available lead acid batteries.

[caverkevin]

May want to look at Zeuxo scooters from SUEX in Italy. http://www.suex.it/

They have a really wide range of scooters. From the EnjoyADV7 which is a lead acid powered recreational scooter that is about 38 pounds heavy. All they way up to large exploration class scooters with 42 Ahr lead acid and 60Ahr NiMH. I think it is in the works to build lithium based scooters as well.

I have been the owner of three ADV-14's since 2006. They have been very dependable scooters. I happy with the rugged construction and easy handling.

Cheers!!

Kevin

[phillip1]

Cool I also keep hearing the N19 is really a good option. The only thing is the price. Is the N19 really $2000 better than the Mako?

[FW]

The major issue with Mako is the depth rating (160'). They use the same motor, and thruster as the SS.

The UV-18 is basically a Mako, with a hull that can withstand 300'+. It is also the cheapest of the SS scooters. Very reliable, and tough.

The N-19 is nice (I have one), but you have to use it frequently, or the batteries will loose capacity. This is also true for the Dive Xtra's X, and Zeuxo. Any scooter with NiMH batteries has the same issues.

[Slüdge]

It is a little slower and has a bit less run time than an N19

First of all, let me state for the record that I am a happy SS owner and have no intention of changing, but I find that statement bewildering.

Quick story: I made a dive on my Mako (pretty fast) with a guy on an X-scooter Cuda 650. This scooter has nine prop settings and four motor settings. He set his on motor 3, prop 6. I set my prop on 6.

We got 500' in and mine was *ever so slightly* faster, so I motioned for him to move up one setting. I meant go from prop 6 to prop 7. He thought I meant go from motor 3 to motor 4. So he did.

He left me like I was going the other way.

(Ever miss a tackle and watch the guy run toward the goal line, with his number getting smaller and smaller as you're lying on the ground? That's what it was like.)

[caverkevin]

Hey Forrest,

Don't paint with too broad a brush. As Zeuxo's have a wide range of lead acid scooters as well.





The N-19 is nice (I have one), but you have to use it frequently, or the batteries will loose capacity. This is also true for the Dive Xtra's X, and Zeuxo. Any scooter with NiMH batteries has the same issues.

[FW]

Hey Forrest,

Don't paint with too broad a brush. As Zeuxo's have a wide range of lead acid scooters as well.
Sorry, only have seen their NiMH versions.

[caverkevin]

Phillip,

You really need to prioritize your desires for your scooter. Cost, burn time, weight, etc.....

There is no scooter out there that does everything. We all dream about a $50 scooter that is less than 20 pounds with a 24 hour burn time at 300FPM while hauling a dozen stages. Plain and simple that won't exist in our life times. Everybody will argue and defend their scooter choices, simple because that choice fits their needs. This is why you really need to define what you need from this scooter.

Because a inexpensive Apollo scooter may be the best tool for what you are trying to do down there.

Cheers!!

Kevin

[scubabrownie]

Good morning, I have an N-19 and love it. Suzie and Rodney are great to work with if you have any questions. I have had no issues with mine and have had it about two years...:clapper

Brian

[deanme]

I demoed a N-19 SS scooter and liked it, but, like all small scooters, it has a bit of torque. Because of the torque I was thinking of getting the larger, heavier UV-N-37 SS scooter. Other then the torque, I really prefer the smaller and lighter N-19. I may be using this scooter in the ocean as well as the caves, and the idea of handing up a 77 lb scooter with 3 foot seas is not something I look forward to. Can anyone comment about the difference in torque between the UV-N-37 and the N-19? Thanks.

Dean

[FW]

I am not sure there is a lot of dfference between the N-19 and UV-N-37. I have dived the N-19, and the UV-18, and the UV-18 has only a little less torque than the N-19. The UV-N-37 is similar in size/weight to the UV-18.

You have to go to a UV-26, or UV-42 to really see a lot of difference.

[Line Squirrel]

the idea of handing up a 77 lb scooter with 3 foot seas is not something I look forward to.

Nor does the DM :mrgreen:

[jj1987]

Cool I also keep hearing the N19 is really a good option. The only thing is the price. Is the N19 really $2000 better than the Mako?
Really, if you can decide how much burn time you need (easy to calculate if you know the speed of your scooter), know your max budget for a scooter, and know your weight limits, there's not many scooter options.

From what I gathered...if you need the burn time (from what I've read of your previous posts, you're 4k back in a cave often) and want it as cheap as possible, get a Gavin Standard body....if you want more comfort and have room in the budget, get the SS-UV...if you need burn time, you're rich AND need it to be light/able to travel (and are willing to have a few more parts that I guess could fail), get a Cuda.

When thinking about getting a scooter, that was the advice that nearly everyone shared with me. I found picking a scooter I would be happy with is easy, figuring out how to afford said scooter isn't :?

[phillip1]

Actually my dive buddy and I were each considering getting a scooter each, but of course the $4000 price tag of the N19 and co is a bit steep.
We are not going to be doing any foreseeable really deep dives as the caves so far are long but relatively shallow.
If in terms of reliability and performance if the Mako is about the same as an N19 we could get two for the price of one N19 and it makes sense.
However if the Mako is a real dud then we need to rethink that.

the main thing for us is reliability as it is always a hassle to ship stuff from here, or get stuff through cutoms.

In FL you guys are dealing with major flow, deep caves tec.. so I think you might need tougher scooters.

My question is are the Mako's realiable and worth it or should we wait and see if we can come up wit the cash for some N19 or other high end scooters?

Thanks

[Slüdge]

The only downside to a Mako is the short burn time. If you're not going deep, that is.

[rjack]

The biggest downside to a Mako is its 20yo hull design. Its thin fragile plastic with lots of Orings and many little parts needing to be assembled just so to keep it from leaking. And in stock motor configuration its really slow.

Despite using the same actual seal, the shaft seal cups are way better on the DiveXtra scooters vs. the Oceanic tail cones with split rings used in Gavins and Makos. (I don't know if the cone is the same of different on the SS)

[DaveP]

Go Phillip Go!

[deepairmike]

When we were working in Mexico we couldn't all Carry scooters so we towed double andit worked very well. So if I were you I would get one very reliable tough scooter instead of 2 mako type.

[chimie007]

The biggest downside to a Mako is its 20yo hull design. Its thin fragile plastic with lots of Orings and many little parts needing to be assembled just so to keep it from leaking.

This was the very thing that made me look for a used Gavin instead of a Mako. Mine is not new and not a fancy SS/X but construction is solid and it performs 100% every time.

[DA Aquamaster]

First of all, let me state for the record that I am a happy SS owner and have no intention of changing, but I find that statement bewildering.

Quick story: I made a dive on my Mako (pretty fast) with a guy on an X-scooter Cuda 650. This scooter has nine prop settings and four motor settings. He set his on motor 3, prop 6. I set my prop on 6.

We got 500' in and mine was *ever so slightly* faster, so I motioned for him to move up one setting. I meant go from prop 6 to prop 7. He thought I meant go from motor 3 to motor 4. So he did.

He left me like I was going the other way.The Cuda 650 (and the 850) is a different animal. Comparing the basic 310Wh X scooter to the Cuda is like comparing a Mustang GT with a Shelby Mustang.

But yes, I should have been more specific - Both the N19 and a 1000 rpm Mako are going to be a bit faster than the basic X scooter Sierra.

[deanme]

thanks for the input. so if all i want is 50 minutes of burn time, and my budget is $4500, you would suggest getting the lighter N-19? i really didn't like the torque and was told the bigger scooters don't have any torque. but i'm not interested in getting anything heavier then the UV-N-37, which is 77 lbs.

dean

[DA Aquamaster]

Actually my dive buddy and I were each considering getting a scooter each, but of course the $4000 price tag of the N19 and co is a bit steep.
We are not going to be doing any foreseeable really deep dives as the caves so far are long but relatively shallow.
If in terms of reliability and performance if the Mako is about the same as an N19 we could get two for the price of one N19 and it makes sense.
However if the Mako is a real dud then we need to rethink that.

the main thing for us is reliability as it is always a hassle to ship stuff from here, or get stuff through cutoms.

In FL you guys are dealing with major flow, deep caves tec.. so I think you might need tougher scooters.

My question is are the Mako's realiable and worth it or should we wait and see if we can come up wit the cash for some N19 or other high end scooters?It really depends. I have experience with 3 Makos. 1 stock and 2 now non-stock.

One of them was ok out of the box (170 fpm or so at max pitch and decent burn time with 21 Ah batteries) but sufferred a minor flood in the motor section due to a damaged o-ring groove flooded that was unfortuantely not detected for several months (last dive of the season before being stored all winter). Consequently it got rebuilt with a 1000 rpm motor, new clutch and new relays.

The other stock Mako was an incredible dog (although this may have been age/hard use related). It got the same rebuild and now does 225 fpm compared to 180 fpm for the other - and the reasons for the difference may relate to propellers, batteries or maybe something else. I need to do some mixing and matching with further testing. But the point is they can range from superb to total dogs in terms of performance.

Makos also need a bit more care - not the best choice to drop over the side of a dive boat, and you'll worry about how the crew treats it if they lift it out for you (get a neoprene cover if you get a Mako to protect the o-ring grooves bit more). You'd also want to change the nose plate to a stronger aluminum or lexan plate.

If you get a dog it is all fixable, but just costs money and turns the $800 used Mako into a $1800-$2000 rebuilt Mako - that will run better than a $2550 new Mako.

The third one is a recent arrival I took in trade for a rifle I no longer shot much and I have not formed an opinion on it yet. It will be a spare and may or may not get rebuilt. The previous owner liked it just fine. Alternatively I may have a machinist freind of mine mill a new rear housing and nose cap out of delrin and then add a PVC mid body to create a more or less UV-18 equivalent. If that works well, I'll have him run off two more sets and convert all three. But since I now live 1800 miles away from him, those little engineering projects are harder to pull off.

[DA Aquamaster]

thanks for the input. so if all i want is 50 minutes of burn time, and my budget is $4500, you would suggest getting the lighter N-19? i really didn't like the torque and was told the bigger scooters don't have any torque. but i'm not interested in getting anything heavier then the UV-N-37, which is 77 lbs.

deanTorque is a reaction to the rotation of the prop and motor. Assuming you are applying the same power to the prop with the same basic motor, you will get the same torque. Or looked at differently, less torque also equals less power.

In a larger scooter the torque may not be as obvious or create as much rotational velocity of the scooter due to the greater mass of the larger scooter, but the torque is the same.

The location of trim weights in the scooter can make the torque less offensive. If for example the weights are placed on the "side" of the scooter opposite the direction of the torque, the rotational energy is expended against the asymetrical weight distribution in the scooter and the effect is the scooter being balanced under power with the handle straight up - but slowly rolling so that the handle is to the side with power off. Not a perfect solution but one that might work for you.

----

NiMh batteries discharge a few percent per day in storage, so they require more care and feeding and have to be topped off the day before a dive. For that reason I am kind of a Lead Acid fan. Lead acid batteries are also about $70 per pair compared to maybe $700-$800 per set for NiMH.

If 70 pounds is not too much, and you do nto want to go with a Mako, a UV-18 would be a good bullet proof option.

[deanme]

In a larger scooter the torque may not be as obvious or create as much rotational velocity of the scooter due to the greater mass of the larger scooter, but the torque is the same.

The location of trim weights in the scooter can make the torque less offensive.

Ummm.. wow. The scary part is, you did such a great job explaining yourself, I actually understood what you said. Great input. Thank you.

Yes, I would agree UV-18 is probably a good alternative, but I really want to use this scooter in the ocean, and I’m thinking the lighter the better. Forest mentioned the rotational velocity for the UV-18 is about the same as that of the N-19. I definatly don't want to go very much heavier then 80 lbs and consider a UV-26, for example.

I like the trim weight idea. That could be the solution. So many options.

[chimie007]

If you get a dog it is all fixable, but just costs money and turns the $800 used Mako into a $1800-$2000 rebuilt Mako - that will run better than a $2550 new Mako.


But then why not getting a used UV-18 or short Gavin. There have been some selling at 2k.

[chilldive]

Before buying a scooter, one really needs to know where and how they are planning to use it. If all you're doing is cavern, very limited distances into a cave, and/or open water, then a smaller scooter (ie less burn time) is sufficient. If you do a lot of cave diving and are planning to travel greater distances in, then you need something with more burn time and higher reliability.

When planning significant scooter dives, your scooter battery burn time can be every bit as life dependant as your gas management. You can easily scooter to a point that you can't swim out with the typical gas amount you take (ie diving on 1/3s or less).

FWIW... I dive a Gavin Standard body that is over 10 yrs old. It still has all the torque and speed it had 10 yrs ago. I don't really do a thing as far as maintenance. All my friends ride the same scooters and experience the same thing (that would be about 15 people I know). I burn test the batteries once or twice a year. I've blown the dust out of the brushes once or twice. I've replaced the lid o-ring once or twice. I've replaced the batteries once. And that's about it. Knock on wood, it's never failed me.

I'm not that familiar with other scooters. I have test drove an SS and liked it. I looked it over closely, inside and out, and it's pretty similar to a Gavin.

[DA Aquamaster]

But then why not getting a used UV-18 or short Gavin. There have been some selling at 2k.I agree. It's a worst case scenario, but better than staying with a dog of a scooter.

If you see a UV-18 for sale for decent money, let me know - I'd sell off a couple Makos to trade up to it.

[FW]

...When planning significant scooter dives, your scooter battery burn time can be every bit as life dependant as your gas management. You can easily scooter to a point that you can't swim out with the typical gas amount you take (ie diving on 1/3s or less)...
This is very important. DON'T ever plan a scooter dive using 1/3 of your gas. Unless you have another scooter (in tow, or a buddies), never scooter in farther than you can swim out!

[rjack]

If you do a lot of cave diving and are planning to travel greater distances in, then you need something with more burn time and higher reliability.

When planning significant scooter dives, your scooter battery burn time can be every bit as life dependant as your gas management.

When planning significant scooter dives you need extra scooters! Certainly the Gavins and Makos (and SS?) can be disable by a bump on the shaft end springing the C-clip and creating a significant leak at depth. Everyone on this board seems to focus on burn time and "swimming out" when the reality is for systems in places like MX you aren't going to swimming out the mile+ you penetrated. Not sure if this applies to the OP's systems, but having 2 hour burntimes on a long body scooter just creates the need for even more scooters.

[aainslie]

This is very important. DON'T ever plan a scooter dive using 1/3 of your gas. Unless you have another scooter (in tow, or a buddies), never scooter in farther than you can swim out!

Actually I feel that this is too lenient a plan.

My planning revolves around being able to swim out AND LOSE ONE CYLINDER. This works for gas planning on OC and CC.

Unlikely I know, but accidents have a habit of happening in groups.

[deanme]

My planning revolves around being able to swim out AND LOSE ONE CYLINDER.
As a precaution, I always clip my side-mount tanks to me so I don't lose a cylinder. I have lost buddies before, but never a cylinder. :roll:

[aainslie]

As a precaution, I always clip my side-mount tanks to me so I don't lose a cylinder. I have lost buddies before, but never a cylinder. :roll:

:)

I meant, of course, the contents of that cylinder.

[jj1987]

AND LOSE ONE CYLINDER.
How about losing a scooter? :smt081

[aainslie]

How about losing a scooter? :smt081

Did you hear about my Crack incident?

(I lost a scooter during deco - don't ask how. Fortunately I found it the next day. It was a nasty night, thinking I was out of pocket $4500)

[jj1987]

Did you hear about my Crack incident?

(I lost a scooter during deco - don't ask how. Fortunately I found it the next day. It was a nasty night, thinking I was out of pocket $4500)
Damn, you found it! We were planning a recovery mission, it would have been all of our first for-profit cave dives. :)

[aainslie]

(Sorry for derail)

Yeah. I had silted out so badly the night before that I couldn't see 3 feet. I had been playing with a decomposing log to pass time, crunching up handfuls of it into fine dust - I must have mushed about a cubic foot of the stuff to amuse myself. Then i went to get my stages... oops, where's the scooter? I dropped it while moving stages up from 30 ft to 15 ft somehow.

I went all the way back down to 160 ft (which cost me an extra 1/2 hour of deco) and couldn't find squat. I came up looking in every cranny I could - but with crappy vis, it was almost impossible.

Next morning I put on some SM tanks and took stages, fully willing to spend a couple of hours looking. I dropped in... and there it was, at 37 ft, right under me. I was out in 7 minutes. I felt like a clown coming out with a total of 4 tanks and a scooter for a 7 minute dive...

[chilldive]

I guess the key point I was trying to make is that adding a scooter to the mix greatly increases the amount of planning needed. Just like planning for gas contingencies, you must plan for scooter contingencies.

I always dive with a buddy who has a scooter with the same capability as mine. Therefore, just like gas, I have a backup plan in case my scooter craps out at the deepest penetration (ie he can tow me out). Sometimes that planned penetration is far enough that a spare scooter in tow is needed - sometimes we need two spare scooters.

Scooters can easily get a person into as much trouble as poor gas mgmt.

Along these lines, for cave diving, I don't see why a person would buy a small short range scooter, unless you really never intend to venture very far. At some point, you're going to want to go further than you should on that small scooter - then what? - tow another small scooter? That seems kind of like taking a bunch of 40 cuft stages, when you could take fewer 80's. All in how you plan it.

As mentioned, I use the Gavin Standard. Then for a little extra money, I purchased my own parts to be able to also use it as a short body. I do this for open water diving or very limited support diving on a team where my penetration is very limited.

[deanme]

I dropped in... and there it was, at 37 ft, right under me.

I find a lot of people drop equipment at the beginning of the cave dive. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into the cave at Ginnie and found a bunch of 40 cubic foot aluminum tanks that have “Oxygen” written on them. The floor is literally littered with them. Just a mess. I of course always do the responsible thing and gather them up and remove them from the cave.
:smt100

[icestac]

I find a lot of people drop equipment at the beginning of the cave dive. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into the cave at Ginnie and found a bunch of 40 cubic foot aluminum tanks that have “Oxygen” written on them. The floor is literally littered with them. Just a mess. I of course always do the responsible thing and gather them up and remove them from the cave.
:smt100

That would be after you purge them of the deadly oxygen of course.

[chilldive]

I find a lot of people drop equipment at the beginning of the cave dive. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into the cave at Ginnie and found a bunch of 40 cubic foot aluminum tanks that have “Oxygen” written on them. The floor is literally littered with them. Just a mess. I of course always do the responsible thing and gather them up and remove them from the cave.
:smt100

LOL! I've often wondered if anyone has ever had an O2 / deco tank "taken". I always hang mine on the chain on the way in, but it would probably be better to leave in the cavern.

Anyone ever had one stolen?

[FW]

LOL! I've often wondered if anyone has ever had an O2 / deco tank "taken". I always hang mine on the chain on the way in, but it would probably be better to leave in the cavern.

Anyone ever had one stolen?
Yes! (not mine, but I have heard reports)

[se2schul]

I am considering buying a scooter and I don't know anything about scooters which are the best compact scooters around?, since I live in the DR reliability is a major factor over performance as it will be a real hassle to send parts back etc..
Oceanic Mako
SS N19
others?

thanks

I don't know what you mean by "compact scooter", but here is my .02

Try to organize it so that you and your buddies have the same type of scooter. This will make spare parts for your group easier.

I use Gavins. They are very simple scooters, but if you use them a lot, they will need maintenance. Fortunately, they are very easy to service in the field when something breaks.

The Gavin uses the same motor as the SS and the mako.
Unfortunately, that motor sucks. If you use it for more than about 45 minutes, the motor will get hot. It isn't good for the motor and it will consume much more power which will drain your batteries faster.
If you do go with a Gavin, or SS, or Mako, you'll have to let the motor cool down after using it for a short time.

If I could afford it, I'd get SUEX scooters. They have a much bigger motor that can be run for much longer than the gavin/ss/mako without getting hot. They are better constructed and more reliable. The SUEX also has some brilliant features (like in-water removeable prop) that really sets it apart from all other scooters on the market.
Unfortunately, a new SUEX costs 3 times the cost of a used gavin, which is prohibitively expensive for me.

[deanme]

If I could afford it, I'd get SUEX scooters.

No US dealers?

http://www.suex.it/dealers.php?s=GB

[caverkevin]

No there is not a US SUEX distributor. I doubt there will be any in the near future.

The scooters can be shipped right to you from Italy. Should you ever need help with maintenance or repair, I can give you a hand before things get shipped back to Italy. I spent a couple days at the factory helping to build scooters. Most of the stuff on the scooter is easy to repair.

Cheers!!

Kevin

[se2schul]

No US dealers?

http://www.suex.it/dealers.php?s=GB

Well, I'm in Canada, not the US.
Even with a US dealer, I'd still have to pay tax or duty to bring it to Canada which ups the cost significantly.
That's not the deal breaker for me though....

The $6000 US price tag with the options I want is the deal breaker.
Also, I'd need 2 of them, so that puts the price up to $12,000 USD.
For that price, I could get 6 used gavins.

The SUEX is very nice, but it ain't cheap.

[phillip1]

Once I find the Taino indian golden statue I keep hearing about and that is supposedly hidden in every cave I dive here according to the locals, I will then get a custom Suex scooter, a submarine, and a helicopter to get there faster lol...
Until then I think I am actually leaning towards an N19 as I hear the Mako's are fragile when transported and almost all the caves here involve some kind of transport through a dry cave section.