Sidemount: Long hoses or Short hoses? [Archive] - Cave Diver's Forum

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Climber703

03-10-2005, 02:30 PM

Moonfuzzy

03-10-2005, 08:51 PM

Tegg

03-10-2005, 09:41 PM

normblitch

03-11-2005, 07:19 AM

Tegg

03-11-2005, 08:11 AM

Is the long hose(s) 60" or 84"?

AND, since you are alternating regs-tanks for balance every 250-500#, do you also change the resulting neck-loop on every tank-reg exchange?

Norm

I use 2 60inch hoses. I have rubber bands on my tanks to secure them.

My left side is pulled out enough to be on my neck with a bungee necklace, the right one is pulled out enough to come around the back of my neck and then clips into the bungee. I switch simply by swapping 2nds...

If I need to take my tank off and push it through a hole, I merely pull out the hose as far as I need, when I am done I secure it back on the tank...

This is what works for me, again, YMMV.

ARY

03-11-2005, 08:14 AM

I guess another benefit in handing off a tank is the two divers are not bound to each other if you get into a tight situation like a restriction or something.
Some of the benefits of the long hoses is it just seems simplier to hand a reg off instead of a whole tank.

I'm freshman newbie in sm but that is what i do:
- diving with backmounted buds i have a long hose for them (passing bottle will first screw your ballance, second: not every backmounted buddy can easily decide how to carry that bottle, especially being "in situation")
- for the case when i still have to donate bottle to backmounter (high flow, small restriction etc.) i have small nylon loops on the neck of my bottles. I clip my becoming useless left clip to this loop and donate bottle. This way recipient has two attached clips and it doesn't ask questions of how to hang it on bm harness (unless dude never used stage in his life)
- diving with sm buddy or doing sm solo there is only problem and no benefit with long hose.
- i also carry H valve on the right cylinder with fully functional but shut off reg on a short hose that i can donate if problem arises with someone's regulator. Also it gives me extra redundancy when i have to leave the left bottle and push my right tank ahead.
Critics to the above is absolutely appreciated.

---
ARY
still saving money for sm training

Jordan

03-11-2005, 08:20 AM

I figure that it will be difficlt enough to swim out with an empty tank (being so far off-balance), why add air sharing to the problem? My plan has been to hand off one of my tanks to my buddy should they need air - but they would have to loose both tanks to be in that situation right?

Your PLAN is to hand off one of your tanks? You haven't practiced?

I wouldn't give up a primary tank, it'd make me too off-balanced, and depending on how far we have to go to get out, could potentially muff me (air share, no takey my tank). I would, on the other hand give stage bottle(s) up no problem.

ARY

03-11-2005, 08:30 AM

Your PLAN is to hand off one of your tanks? You haven't practiced?

It is quite possible to give up one tank and not to loose most of a ballance. Here it how:
I have two D-rings on my belly belt, that are not occupied most of a time. When i donate left bottle i unclip my right bottle from my butt and clip its bottom to my left belly belt ring, so it hangs under me diagonally across my chest. Of cause you feel bad swimming like that but it gives you more ballance than in case with one side hanging tank.

Climber703

03-11-2005, 08:32 AM

I am no expert in sidemounting, I have just done what works for me and what was suggested by "sidemount explorers"...

Personally, I find it nice to have "longer" hoses on tanks when removing them to pass through restrictions. Since I mainly dive with other sidemounters, we basically "dive solo" because of our built in redundancy... but if the need arose, I could easily hand a long hose off to share...

YMMV.

Try several configurations and see what works best for you.

Is the long hose(s) 60" or 84"?

AND, since you are alternating regs-tanks for balance every 250-500#, do you also change the resulting neck-loop on every tank-reg exchange?

Norm

Right now I'm using a standard octo on my left side and a regular LP hose on my right with a swivel attachment for the reg. After my backmount buddy and I practiced a tank handoff a few times just to get the feel of it we got to see the difficulties first hand of this procedure.

With some of the discussion I'm personally starting to lean toward the long hoses for ease of air share and it seems it'd be a nice benefit pushing tanks through a tight hole which i've not had the opportunity to do yet.

I also do not wear a necklace in the SM config. A friend showed me to put a small loop in mt chest strap and a clip on each reg and with each reg swap i clip/unclip to the metal loop. This seems to work well because I alsways go to the same place for my main gas reg. The clip is low enough if I needed the reg it is available without clipping also. This seems to be working right now but with all of 6 dives with this config who knows. :>

Jordan

03-11-2005, 08:36 AM

ARY,

Would you have enough ballast with only one, near-empty tank - especially dans les suits des dry?

ARY

03-11-2005, 08:46 AM

Do you have enough ballast with only one tank?
Absolutely, it is Faber 98 with H valve and two regs that has enough weight even being empty.

Especially dans les suits des dry?
Ya kidding me! I'm failing to save money even on sm course (which is first in my priorities list) not to mention dry suite! :-) je plonge dans la suite humide

normblitch

03-11-2005, 01:00 PM

[ :-) je plonge dans la suite humide

WHICH, if you translete via Babblefish reads :

"I plunge in the wet continuation"

curtschu

03-11-2005, 01:30 PM

You gotta love babblefish It will get you more weird looks than just speaking very slowly in english, because as you know everyone understands english if spoken loud and slowly enough :-D

normblitch

03-11-2005, 02:25 PM

You gotta love babblefish It will get you more weird looks than just speaking very slowly in english, because as you know everyone understands english if spoken loud and slowly enough :-D

Which may, in turn, partially explain the LOVE the rest of the non-English speaking World holds for us....

;.((

Norm

caveman21

03-12-2005, 06:57 AM

I'm new to sidemount diving and wanted to float a question by the forum and that is do you use short hoses and hand off a tank when a situation arises or do you use long hoses and apply the same rules in backmounting.

In our local area we have divers doing both situations and one benefit I see to short hoses is hose management. I guess another benefit in handing off a tank is the two divers are not bound to each other if you get into a tight situation like a restriction or something.

Some of the benefits of the long hoses is it just seems simplier to hand a reg off instead of a whole tank.

I'll still be diving quite a bit with backmount divers and it seems like an interesting case in an emergency for them to get everything managed while clipping on a newly inhereted tank.

Opinions?"

I personally use "octo length" (39") hoses on both tanks. This allows me to route the hoses in the style I prefer and not have enough slack that I have to tie the excess up. If you do dive a 60, 72 or 84" hose, the excess should be bundled up neatly and attached to your tank with a band, on the side of the tank facing you (inside). Otherwise, it is a big snag and will probably be pulled loose when you least need it to.

My usual plan when diving sidemount buddied up with backmount divers is to let them breath off of my right side tank while it is still attached to me. The 39" hose is just long enough for them to be slightly ahead of me but not long enough for them to be kicking me in the head. If need arises (restriction), then we stop at that point and I hand off the tank, help them secure it and follow them through the restriction. One trick to air sharing in sidemount is non-directional second stages (poseiden, viper etc.) as normal regs will be facing wrong when you air share from your right tank. The left tank should always be considered "your" air because it is the one used for both breathing and bouyancy control. The less things you have to fumble with in an emergency the better.

The main thing in diving with different gear configs is communication. Everyone involved in the dive needs to understand what needs to happen if an air sharing emergency arrives.

Ron White

Jay

03-14-2005, 07:41 AM

This is an article I wrote about why you might want to use a long hose.

The Rising Popularity of Side mounting
(and why you should consider a long hose)
by Jay Wells

Side mount diving (SM) is not just for breakfast anymore. Traditionally divers in the United States have used a SM configuration for several reasons. In Florida style caves it was developed as a means to reach lower and tighter places by SM pioneers such as Woody Jasper and Lamar Hires. It is also very popular in Great Britain, Europe, Mexico and the US as a method to reach sumps in dry caves or entrances requiring long treks horizontally or vertically. Hauling a set of doubles for long distances and lowering or raising them on vertical faces is impractical and can result in a dearth of sherpas when confronted with the task.
In general a SM diver uses two independent tanks and regulators which are connected to the body via a harness. Each tank is connected at two points. The bottom of the tank is connected to the harness near the divers hip/kidneys and the top of the tank is connected to the harness via a bungee/cord at the top of the right shoulder such that the tank valve hangs under the arm.
At that point all similarities end. In SM diving, the end justifies the means. Some sump and cave divers rely only on a dry suit/wet suit for buoyancy if it is possible or likely to crawl along the bottom. Cavers in Britain have used this method before SM was used in the US. In bigger caves where one may swim through large sections a wing is added for redundancy and trim. It is this style which seems to have become very popular in Florida by divers who are not always looking for tight spots and it is this style I would like to examine in this article
There are several reasons for it’s rising popularity. Smaller divers find it easier to transport tanks individually to the water. The same goes for older divers or divers with leg or back problems. Other divers like the “independence” of independent tanks. Having two independent gas supplies with the valves, regulators and hoses in plain view and easy to reach is very reassuring. It allows a solo diver easy access to any problems occurring in that area and eliminates the need to carry a “buddy bottle” as solo BM divers do. Some solo SM divers still carry an extra bottle to further increase their safety.
Teams of SM divers are more self reliant. This is important in very restrictive caves. The loss of a regulator or an air leak is much less stressful and does not require immediate action from a team member which is important in tight areas. The diver can quickly determine the problem and switch to another tank if necessary. Other team members can be alerted and tanks can be swapped between divers if required. Exiting the cave becomes quicker and simpler as touch contact is not needed.
Another reason for it’s popularity is the amount of information now available on the internet and the “off the shelf” equipment developed. A diver can purchase a system such as Dive Rite’s Transpac II or an Armadillo and get off the shelf items to configure it for SM.
This eliminated a lot of the experimentation done by early SM divers and allows a faster and easier progression to comfortable SM diving. It still does not replace the benefits of taking a good SM class from a knowledgeable instructor however.
And let’s not forget the cool factor or the hardware factor. Cave divers look for a new challenge and enjoy modifying their own equipment. Each SM diver configures their equipment slightly different so the customizing options are almost endless with lot’s of great ideas popping up.

My SM configuration –

I wanted to keep my BM and SM configurations very similar because I do switch back and forth and I am very comfortable with the way my regulators are situated for BM diving.

I use a 7 foot hose on my right tank. The method I use in SM is to bend the hose into two U's, the shorter inside the longer. I use two inner tube bands to keep it secure on the inside of my right tank. The free end is just long enough to reach my mouth and give me freedom of movement. This in effect is 'Bungeeing' the hose, I have had no problems pulling it free, but I haven't found a better method.
With a seven foot hose on the right, I use a 39" hose on my left, put it around my neck and use a standard necklace like a BM diver. My regs look just like my BM configuration.

My Gas management –
I test my left reg before entering the water and again before entering the overhead. I start with the right tank and breathe it down 1/6 and then switch to the left tank and breathe it to 1/3, back to the right tank and breathe it to 1/6 to turn. At maximum penetration my right tank never has less than 1/3 of my gas in it for sharing purposes. If I am in a SLC (sh***y Little cave) or nasty environment, I test or switch to the idle reg more frequently in case of debris, etc.

OOA Situation- Mixed team

Let me preface this by saying that it is very unlikely for a BM diver to completely lose their air supply using a manifolded set of doubles with an isolator, but it can happen and air sharing is the most critical emergency skill .
It is more unlikely for a SM diver using independent tanks to completely lose their air supply. I am only stating this to place the emphasis on the independence of SM divers and that in mixed team diving the BM diver may be more likely to need to share air, so it is important that a team of mixed divers has a clear understanding of emergency procedures.

Generally when I dive with a mixed team of two or more BM divers in the team, the attitude is that the best solution is to keep the BM divers together. If they have an OOA situation, they can go to each other and do the standard drill. The SM diver can survive the loss of one tank /reg if they have followed a good gas management plan. In the event that the SM diver needs to share, the standard drill can be used.
For redundancy and safety I think the best solution is to have a SM diver with a 7 foot hose In the event of an OOA emergency the drill for the SM diver to donate would be just like the BM way. I believe this should also be the case if there is a lone BM diver with a SM or several SM divers. It could be said that the right reg is not always being used, and is therefore not reliable. Under a proper plan, the right reg has been used recently and is in plain view of the SM diver. Is there a chance that the reg won’t function when you donate it? I think it is more likely that the necklace reg on a BM diver won’t work. It’s likely that the majority of BM dives occur without the diver ever breathing off the necklace reg in the overhead. A SM diver uses both regs on every dive.
Another solution with a lone BM diver is to have that person carry a stage and not exceed the pen limits of the available gas. This allows the BM diver to be more independent, but it fosters the attitude that the BM diver is not really a part of the team. The same can be said when a single SM diver teams with two BM divers and is not part of the gas management plan of the two BM divers. The use of a long hose by the SM divers allows all gas management and emergency procedures to be treated as if the team were all BM divers following normal protocol. This is a distinct advantage over having different gas management or emergency procedures among the same team.

OOA Situation, SM divers.

Again,I think the best solution is to have the a SM diver with a 7 foot hose. In the event of an OOA situation the response would be just like the BM way. If I am not breathing it, it is on my right shoulder d-ring. In the event of an OOA situation, 99.9% of the time I will see the other diver approaching and hand them the reg, just like on BM. I think this is important, especially in tight areas. Probably the worst case would be in a very tight area. In this case the 7 foot hose would be essential in getting the air to the other diver. The SM divers can switch tanks when they get to an open area if they choose.

Donating/switching tanks is a tough call. Swapping steel tanks takes careful thought. The divers can end up in an unbalanced situation which may cause more problems. Bracing against the ceiling will keep you from flipping over or flopping to one side, but then you have to handle a negatively buoyant tank. Settling on the bottom may make the actual swapping of the tank easier, but it may result in positive buoyancy and a silt nightmare. Still, it is probably the best method for swapping tanks. It is important that the two SM divers work together to swap tanks. Ideally, a clean rocky base would be the best place to switch. But why switch? If the SM divers are equipped with a 7 foot hose on the right tank, there is no need to switch, just perform the standard drill. The speed you gain in exiting independently would be more than offset by the time and energy it would take to switch.

I believe that in an OOA situation, a team that is not ‘sharing’ can exit much faster than a team doing the standard drill. Especially on scooters or through restrictions. This raises an important question. Is speed of exit more important than maintaining touch contact and reassurance with the OOA diver?

My philosophy is the exit determines the method. If you can comfortably exit using the standard OOA drill, do so. This method is tried and true and divers can perform it with their eyes closed (literally) and in their sleep.
The shortcomings of this method occur when the OOA situation occurs at max pen and it may take more gas to exit sharing air than it did to get to max pen or you have to pass one or more restrictions.

These are some examples:

A long exit without any help from the flow.

By exiting in touch contact you will be slower and the anxiety level will be higher possibly causing increased air consumption. Swapping tanks is probably a better choice for speed of exit, if you can swap tanks efficiently.

You need to pass a number of restrictions to exit. -

My favorite common example of this is Cow Springs. A lot of people back mount in there and I am not convinced that they consider the consequences of exiting on BM’s sharing air. You can certainly get a lot of help from the flow on the exit. But consider if the OOA event occurs past Not My Fault. That will be a challenge when passing through. Then you get to the lower restriction. Have any of you thought about how you would go through sharing air? I am confident I could grab almost any BM buddy pair, get them in the cave and tell them to exit the restrictions sharing air without planning it beforehand and most would fail. Videoing it would be interesting. Very few buddy teams would make it out, and even those would make a pretty interesting video.

In this scenario two SM divers on a long hose should choose to swap tanks before passing the restrictions as they would have difficulty sharing air through the restrictions.

For very tight passages where tanks have to be removed a standard configuration with two short hoses is probably still best as the extra long hose could come free from the tank. However, the next time you are diving with a mixed team of SM and BM divers or you are in a team of SM divers, ask if anyone has considered using a long hose.

Angie Reim

03-14-2005, 09:27 AM

Nice article Jay. I like the emphasis on 'hey go try to do this' don't just plan to do this.

When we're both in SM, my buddy and I both carry short hoses. We are planning for a tight SM type dive and the mindset is for independence. There are times though that John prefers BM so we've tried the various scenarios for airshare in a mixed BM/SM team.

So far what has worked best for us is to carry a 5' stuffed hose on my left tank. I found the 7' hose too long and it would ride over my head but hey that's just me. If you can stuff it properly I would go for the longer hose. The reg wraps around my neck and is on a bungee just like the BM routing. The right reg is clipped off- with break away 0-ring - to the right shoulder D-ring. The agreement is to grab whichever reg you can to get air. ( I find it unlikely that an OOA diver will ask for a reg rather than just take it). It's my responsibility to switch over regs and put the OOA diver on the long hose. Odds are 50/50 that the OOA diver grabbed the long hose anyway. Swimming out with the 5' hose works well. Trying to hand off or switch tanks is a CF. You lose far too much time that could be better spent getting out. Just initiating the airshare will create some lost time while everybody regains their panic and buoyancy control After many SM dives and drills I feel confident in my ability to airshare with a BM diver. So much so that I'm now willing to dive with different people in addition to my usual buddy.

There are some caveats to the arrangement:

1. Never take a BM diver where BM doesn't belong. If you can't airshare on 5' ( or 7') don't go there.

2. The SM diver MUST be meticulous about maintaining proper air balance in his/her tanks. If you can't be sure of the SM diver doing this, take a buddy bottle or add another BM diver to the team. BTW any SM diver that wants to live long will be meticulous about maintaining proper air balance.

3. Just like any other dive team arrangement, there has to be an element of trust regarding performance. Discounting the SM diver as part of the team or the BM diver taking a stage as though solo may foster an attitude of complacency toward each other that could delay an emergency response. Team members need to be candid about their expectations for each other.

Just my 0.02. Do the drills yourself. Do them often and do them everytime you dive with someone new.

ARY

03-14-2005, 09:33 AM

Donating/switching tanks is a tough call. Swapping steel tanks takes careful thought. The divers can end up in an unbalanced situation which may cause more problems. Bracing against the ceiling will keep you from flipping over or flopping to one side, but then you have to handle a negatively buoyant tank. Settling on the bottom may make the actual swapping of the tank easier, but it may result in positive buoyancy and a silt nightmare. Still, it is probably the best method for swapping tanks. It is important that the two SM divers work together to swap tanks. Ideally, a clean rocky base would be the best place to switch. But why switch? If the SM divers are equipped with a 7 foot hose on the right tank, there is no need to switch, just perform the standard drill. The speed you gain in exiting independently would be more than offset by the time and energy it would take to switch.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Ok, now i see the reason why should i have long hose even if i'm diving with another SM: to swim out to the right place to swap tanks. For solo as i understood your opinion all hoses should be short (octo length), right?

Questions if you don't mind:
- What is the reason why do you carry a long hose on the RIGHT cyl?
- What are names of second stages that you can recommend for the left hose that will be comfortable and not cause jaw fatigue (besides Poseidon)? I 'm trying to get rid of placing left hose over my neck.
- What would be your comment on use of H valve on one of the cylinders?
- Why not use one necklace for both regs (i can always identify/feel my right one by its swivel)?
- where do you keep your backup lights, reels?

Jay

03-14-2005, 11:42 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience. Ok, now i see the reason why should i have long hose even if i'm diving with another SM: to swim out to the right place to swap tanks. For solo as i understood your opinion all hoses should be short (octo length), right?

I can't condone solo diving, but I would generally stick with the same 7 foot configuration unless the system was so tight that I knew I would be removing tanks, so I would go to a short hose.

Questions if you don't mind:
- What is the reason why do you carry a long hose on the RIGHT cyl? I picked the right cylinder to be consistent with my BM rig. My regs are in the exact same location, when not in use my left reg is around my neck and on the necklace. My right reg is clipped to the right D-ring.
Everyone is trained to unwrap and donate the right reg. It's a muscle memory and reflex I would rather not have to unlearn to dive SM. I want everything to be as consistent as possible between my SM and BM regulator configuration.

- What are names of second stages that you can recommend for the left hose that will be comfortable and not cause jaw fatigue (besides Poseidon)? I 'm trying to get rid of placing left hose over my neck. I stick with the hose around my neck. All my buddies who don't wrap it use Poseidons, I would not recommend anything else.

- What would be your comment on use of H valve on one of the cylinders? I know some people who put an H valvle on one tank. It is an ideal situation if you have to swap a reg. I can see it being a real advantage if you do a lot of solo diving. Again, it might be best not to use it in very tight places.

- Why not use one necklace for both regs (i can always identify/feel my right one by its swivel)?

I know several people who do that and I have considered it. As of now I am sticking with the configuration which is just like my BM regs.

- where do you keep your backup lights, reels?

Using my Transpac, I butt mount a slim cannister for my primary and my backups are both on my right side, one attached to the d ring and through a piece of innertube under my arm ala back mount. The other one is an SL that clips to the D ring and fits nicely under the velcro strap on top of my left shoulder. I only have a couple of dives on the Armadillo and still trying to find the best placement.

Jay

Angie Reim

03-14-2005, 01:18 PM

My favorite common example of this is Cow Springs. A lot of people back mount in there and I am not convinced that they consider the consequences of exiting on BM’s sharing air. You can certainly get a lot of help from the flow on the exit. But consider if the OOA event occurs past Not My Fault. That will be a challenge when passing through. Then you get to the lower restriction. Have any of you thought about how you would go through sharing air? I am confident I could grab almost any BM buddy pair, get them in the cave and tell them to exit the restrictions sharing air without planning it beforehand and most would fail. Videoing it would be interesting. Very few buddy teams would make it out, and even those would make a pretty interesting video.

In this scenario two SM divers on a long hose should choose to swap tanks before passing the restrictions as they would have difficulty sharing air through the restrictions.

Great example!!! Cow Spring had me a bit freaked out every time I went there until I realized that what I really needed was to practice airshare out of there. On a 5' hose it can be done if the team is up each other's butt. BUT who cares! :lol: A 7' hose makes it even easier.

In this particular scenario at that final restriction before exit (or one very similar to it) with two SM divers I would definitely try switching tanks or handing one off. The OOA diver might even drop a tank just to get out faster. Three tanks would be a burden. It's easy to strap the remaining tank across the chest like a O2 bottle and buoyancy control is irrelevant in that corkscrew.

Just something I tried once and need to practice a bit more. Before removing a tank, release only the bottom clip from your hip. Let the tank hang from the shoulder but keep an arm around it. Using the other hand, release the bottom clip of the tank you want to keep and swing it to your crotch ring. Then remove the first tank from it's shoulder to hand it off. Unlike previous attempts I didn't get pinned to the ceiling until AFTER I let go of the tank. :lol:

rchrds

03-14-2005, 07:03 PM

Is the long hose(s) 60" or 84"?

AND, since you are alternating regs-tanks for balance every 250-500#, do you also change the resulting neck-loop on every tank-reg exchange?

Norm

The part that got me here was the changing neck loops- Use one tight neck loop and put break-away rigged clips on your regs. MUCH easier to manage- and you can get to either one without all that wierdness around your neck. Swapping neck loops takes too much time.

C and I both use "stage bottle" (46-49?") hoses on both tanks. We commonly finish dives with switched bottles for practice and have on a couple of occasions drained one completely and made the swim out to test out the bouyancy difficulties.

Ary is correct, a full bottle slung across the belly does the job- particularly early on in the dive with a full 120 of nitrox and one at 100 pounds.

j

Duncan Price

03-16-2005, 05:09 AM

I'm new to sidemount diving and wanted to float a question by the forum and that is do you use short hoses and hand off a tank when a situation arises or do you use long hoses and apply the same rules in backmounting.

Short hoses - less clutter. Each diver is responsible for his/her own gas management. If one cylinder goes down you dive out on the other. There is no question of sharing air although I have practised exchanging cylinders underwater but consider bailout onto someone else's gas supply the last resort - something you might do if there was gas left in stages or you were on deco.

Both 2nd stages are on the same necklace and not removed from this to breath from.