Diver and/or Instructor Renewal Program

[atedeschi]

After much discussion on another thread, I would like to get some votes on what we as a community should maybe push for. Below is a piece from GUE's standards, I am not saying we have to use exactly this, but might be a good starting point. I will be posting on multiple boards, but please just vote in one place.

The poll asks for what level should be certified instructor, or divers. It is broken down also in to tec instructor, rec instructor and/or tec and rec diver. It also say I am a ..., this is to get an idea of what level you are as a diver/instructor. I tried to think as many combinations as possible, and if not there please pick the closests. Also I consider tec level advanced nitrox/Deco procedures as the minimum.

"1.8.4 Instructor Re-Qualification
GUE instructors must formally requalify in EVERY curriculum (Recreational, Tech, Cave) in which they are qualified to teach by December of the third year of their initial certification or last requalification. This requirement is fulfilled by co-teaching a class with a training director in each curriculum in which requalification
is due. Instructors may also requalify by joining a GUE-sanctioned instructor re-qualification workshop. Instructors may choose to reset the three-year clock at any point within this three-year window. In the event an instructor is qualified to teach at different levels of a given curriculum (e.g., Tech 1 or 2), it is the prerogative of the training director to decide at which level the instructor will work toward requalification. GUE instructors must also requalify anytime the safety or effectiveness of their training is questioned. In such a case, GUE’s Quality Control Board may immediately suspend an instructor’s teaching privileges until a thorough review of these allegations is made. Instructors who fail to requalify within three years will be put on inactive status and required to return their
instructor cards to GUE Headquarters at once.

1.8.5 Diver Re-Qualification
All GUE diver-qualification cards expire three years after the date of issue. A diver can be re-qualified six months before or six months after the expiration of their qualification period by having his/her individual dive experience reviewed by either a qualified GUE instructor or by GUE Headquarters. To maintain GUE
qualification, GUE divers must a) complete and log at least twenty-five dives at the level of their qualification within a three-year period, and b) must provide evidence of such by producing their logbook or by mailing in or faxing copies of their logbook pages to a relevant GUE representative. Upon review,
divers can be issued a new qualification card for a nominal fee."

[Jack Hammer]

Whereas I like the concept of renewable c-cards and GUE's requirement of making 25 dives in a three year period, the reality as I see it is that there is absolutely nothing to stop me or anyone else from just forging the needed number of dive logs and sending it to them to have a card renewed. The people these requirements are meant to stop from diving are going to be the ones who will be sending in the fake logs and the ones likely diving way above their level of training and also the ones likely making big headlines that give the rest of us a bad name.


**btw - sorry, I think there are too many options for the poll, damn near gives me a headache reading through them all:yawinkle:.

[BobK]

If we don't have a serious renewal program for vehicle drivers, who kill themselves and others at a rate GREATER then all the living active tech divers in the USA each year, why would we even consider yet another restriction on diving ?

Is there some kind of Obama socialism going on here recently ? What's up with all the proposed new laws to save us from ourselves ?

[atedeschi]

If we don't have a serious renewal program for vehicle drivers, who kill themselves and others at a rate GREATER then all the living active tech divers in the USA each year, why would we even consider yet another restriction on diving ?

Is there some kind of Obama socialism going on here recently ? What's up with all the proposed new laws to save us from ourselves ?

Not a law in fact it should help with the self policing that is lacking, and maybe get them from stop worring about numbers and produce better quailty.

[Tegg]

Is there some kind of Obama socialism going on here recently ? What's up with all the proposed new laws to save us from ourselves ?

Do you dare to believe in personal responsibility?

Psssh... Personal Responsibility is a myth. We all know that most humans need "better humans" to tell them how to be safe.

[pwl4476]

Gotta love the "nominal fee" part.

Upon review,
divers can be issued a new qualification card for a nominal fee."
__________________

[ScubaAl]

I retired a couple of months ago and have been looking for a part-time job. Any one know where to send my application for the "Scuba Police"

How does that saying go, "be careful what you wish for"

Unreal, jeese............................................. ................

Al

[atedeschi]

Instructors already have to pay a nominal fee every year to renew, at least this way we get something out of it.

[Benthic]

If we don't have a serious renewal program for vehicle drivers, who kill themselves and others at a rate GREATER then all the living active tech divers in the USA each year, why would we even consider yet another restriction on diving ?

Is there some kind of Obama socialism going on here recently ? What's up with all the proposed new laws to save us from ourselves ?

:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper:clapper

Brian

[aainslie]

Dude, it would ahve been a lot easier to separate that mess into separate questions.

I'll try to find a category I like.

[atedeschi]

yeah i know but i been busy, and wanted to get it posted. I will post the results a lot clearer, promise.

[fghray1]

Renewals for what !!!!!
I like the unofficial answer to this question.
If your foolish enough to drive, dive, swim, walk, shoot, eat, drink, sky dive, skate board, (you get the idea) beyond what your common sense tells you to do.
They will someone to pick up the peices.

[jj1987]

I like the idea of students submitting SIGNED (by instructor and student) dive logs for the training dives and having that be turned in with the paperwork. Also have both instructor and student initial next to all required skills and limitations....I've seen/heard/observed that often students don't even realize what they've missed out on.

This provides structure to the class, and keeps honest people honest...kinda like door locks, don't tempt anyone with making it too easy.

I agree personal responsibility is the best option, but that's NOT happening and we all know it.

[rjack]

I like the idea of students submitting SIGNED (by instructor and student) dive logs for the training dives and having that be turned in with the paperwork. Also have both instructor and student initial next to all required skills and limitations....I've seen/heard/observed that often students don't even realize what they've missed out on.

This provides structure to the class, and keeps honest people honest...kinda like door locks, don't tempt anyone with making it too easy.

I agree personal responsibility is the best option, but that's NOT happening and we all know it.

For training dives sure, keeps everyone honest and attentive to standards (which are woefully lacking in some agencies/instructors)

For personal dives the whole signing thing makes me laugh.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Great Christ ... that list is worse than the ballot I just had to fill out on Tuesday.

To make it simple ... I opt for no required renewals. I don't need the Scuba Police to keep me safe. If I don't have the responsibility to maintain my skills then Darwin will provide all the enforcement that's necessary. Safe diving's more about judgment than anything else ... and you can't legislate that no matter how hard you try.

Please ... PLEASE ... don't try to save me from myself. That's my job.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[skip]

When you make c-cards something people have to re-up every so often, I'm betting they won't. It will lapse, they'll realize it, and then just stop diving. There will be a few hard-core divers that will dutifully re-educate themselves (the ones who seek a refresher course anyway) and keep on diving, but you can bet the industry as a whole would dry up and blow away.

For myself, I enjoy classes and return to them readily for another go round. But I can also see a cool little black market opportunity for the nefarious, "Hey buddy, wanna buy a c-card?"

-skip

[FW]

So, only rec and tech divers/instructors can vote? :roll:

[LiteHedded]

When you make c-cards something people have to re-up every so often, I'm betting they won't. It will lapse, they'll realize it, and then just stop diving. There will be a few hard-core divers that will dutifully re-educate themselves (the ones who seek a refresher course anyway) and keep on diving, but you can bet the industry as a whole would dry up and blow away.

For myself, I enjoy classes and return to them readily for another go round. But I can also see a cool little black market opportunity for the nefarious, "Hey buddy, wanna buy a c-card?"

-skip
so be it

[cavediver27]

If we don't have a serious renewal program for vehicle drivers, who kill themselves and others at a rate GREATER then all the living active tech divers in the USA each year, why would we even consider yet another restriction on diving ?

Is there some kind of Obama socialism going on here recently ? What's up with all the proposed new laws to save us from ourselves ?

Yeah, please, someone write another law to protect me from doing the things I enjoy (and charge me a fee in the process). Then please let's redistribute the wealth in this country so everyone can do anything they want and then be protected by charging another fee for the privilege. Obama's socialist agenda is running rampant right now but I have a feeling the country is starting to see the "change" they got has come at a very expensive price, both in dollars and freedoms.

[atedeschi]

So, only rec and tech divers/instructors can vote? :roll:

FW, I am not sure what you getting at I tried to list the possible combinations of divers and or instructors.


Yeah, please, someone write another law to protect me from doing the things I enjoy (and charge me a fee in the process). Then please let's redistribute the wealth in this country so everyone can do anything they want and then be protected by charging another fee for the privilege. Obama's socialist agenda is running rampant right now but I have a feeling the country is starting to see the "change" they got has come at a very expensive price, both in dollars and freedoms.

Its not another law, why to people things its a goverment thing and laws. There is no policeman gong to come arrest you. Its something the agencies do. For those of you that dive often, thinks its going to be all the red tape, you would only have to send in a copy of a log or something. Instructors already have to pay $$$ to renew so why not have the money do something and help it weed out the slackers, in turn help produce a better quality, diver.

[LiteHedded]

renewing cert cards == socialism
never takes long on here :)

[Spd 135]

Its not another law, why to people things its a goverment thing and laws. There is no policeman gong to come arrest you. Its something the agencies do. For those of you that dive often, thinks its going to be all the red tape, you would only have to send in a copy of a log or something. Instructors already have to pay $$$ to renew so why not have the money do something and help it weed out the slackers, in turn help produce a better quality, diver.

The way a diver becomes a quality diver is not forced training. If you have to force someone to get more training, or quality mentoring, they will make the "Minimum Standards to pass" and continue as they have been. If instructors have to retrain annually then when will enough be available since they have other obligations. There is not an unlimited pool of instructors. That is, in fact, what is required to get a card (instructors and minimum standards).

Divers are the general public, a cross section of society of you will. Excellent diver become that way because they strive to be better. Best leave this alone, don't dive with sorry divers, and mentor those who want to be better. Darwin will take care of the rest. Like it or not........that is the way it is and always has been.

People that do not strive to keep getting better will either 1. dive infrequently, 2. get the card and move on to something else, or
3. get weeded out by the guy on the sign. Most of the "poor divers" go to the well travelled caves and have no drive to dive the caves that are off of the beaten path and takes work to get to. I understand wanting cave divers to be better as a whole, but in reality we are as different as any other sport. Self Responsibility lets me worry about me, an of course those I am diving with at the time. Other than that..................."they" must worry about themselves.

[FW]

FW, I am not sure what you getting at I tried to list the possible combinations of divers and or instructors.
Ant, sorry I didn't see your response until today. It is the use of Rec and Tech that I object to. I consider myself a cavediver, which is above rec, or tech. I was an instructor, but I retired. Actually, there aren't many rec only divers that frequent this forum, and I don't see any that responded to your poll.

[atedeschi]

Ant, sorry I didn't see your response until today. It is the use of Rec and Tech that I object to. I consider myself a cavediver, which is above rec, or tech. I was an instructor, but I retired. Actually, there aren't many rec only divers that frequent this forum, and I don't see any that responded to your poll.

Yeah I kept the rec part to be consisitant. For this poll I consider cave diver as tech. I was thinking about adding in overhead training but then it would be even more options. I have the same post on scubaboard, but not a lot of response was hoping to get the rec divers. To bad I can't put a poll on TDS, but in my post I refer people to CDF or SB. Anyway will see what the final results come to.

[Burke]

Diving is too regulated now and I would not support more regulations or requirements. I used to hold one of those cards that had to be renewed and I didn't bother.

There are inherent problems with trying to set rules and attempting to claim that they apply to everyone universally. They have to be written for the lowest common denominator, eventually creating enforcement problems as divers gain skill beyond the entry-level diver the rules are written to protect. Eventually, the rule making organizations will beome irrelevant, if they do not adapt. I think that's what starting to happen now. Some are adapting and some are not.