View Full Version : Access to Eagles Nest
Kelly Jessop
11-05-2009, 06:37 AM
As someone who has worked hard in the past to open sites,it pains me to see a site that could be threatened in the future to closure due to inability to police it. All of us have read on different forums about dive shops leading guided OW diving trips there,OW divers diving to the debris mound,used for deep instruction with students who aren't cave certified etc. I am curious what others feel what should be done,if anything. Past efforts have proved to be inadequate to deter the idiocy that occurs there.
If only #3 would work! What few rangers there are, have enough to do checking hunting licenses. I suspect they would rather close the Nest, than have to check diving credentials.
OFG-1
11-05-2009, 07:22 AM
OK, here we go jerking our collective knees without any real information. Kelly, you say that everyone reads this and other sites, and then you post this stupidity. You have no real facts as to why this person drowned, and yet you want to blame it on their diving the Nest.
This guy could have had a bad mix, bad scrubber, health problem, bad electronics, any of which could have cacked his ass just as easily in open water as in the Nest. No one was lost in a cave, no one lost a line, no one ran out of gas, his buddy swam out no problem.
Why would you create a perceived need for a solution to a problem that may not have existed, and then post pages of it on the damn Internet. And worse, some of you want to believe that this site represents the entire "Cave Community", when it absolutely does not, and any of these polls are not necessarily representative of the whole.
I am not saying that I believe that any non cave certified person should be cave diving. I do not. HOWEVER, it appears from the information that I have seen, that this was a diving accident that just happened to occur in a cave, not a cave diving accident.
Kelly Jessop
11-05-2009, 07:24 AM
If only #3 would work! What few rangers there are, have enough to do checking hunting licenses. I suspect they would rather close the Nest, than have to check diving credentials.
I agree,but I don't mean the rangers. There are many dive shops in the area that could provide the service,especially if they would like to see the continued existence of this as a cave diving site. What we know is that continuing the status quo continues to result in fatalities with constant exceeding of training occuring. I wish more educational out reach would work,but it has been done repeatedly with no success. So I think giving item #3 a try is important,because the other items have been complete total failure. We keep saying as a community that we need to police ourselves and not get the government involvement,so we need to accept the consequences or do something.
Kelly Jessop
11-05-2009, 07:28 AM
OK, here we go jerking our collective knees without any real information. Kelly, you say that everyone reads this and other sites, and then you post this stupidity.
John-read all the news reports all over Tampa area newspapers and TV,I would say it is out there already. More fatalities is that stupidity. What is stupidity-OW divers diving there?
Diveshops leading OW dive trips? Instructors taking noncave diver students there for deep training? So I ask what really is stupid? I think the stupidy is the deer in the headlights mentality.
OK, here we go jerking our collective knees without any real information. Kelly, you say that everyone reads this and other sites, and then you post this stupidity. You have no real facts as to why this person drowned, and yet you want to blame it on their diving the Nest.
This guy could have had a bad mix, bad scrubber, health problem, bad electronics, any of which could have cacked his ass just as easily in open water as in the Nest. No one was lost in a cave, no one lost a line, no one ran out of gas, his buddy swam out no problem.
Why would you create a perceived need for a solution to a problem that may not have existed, and then post pages of it on the damn Internet. And worse, some of you want to believe that this site represents the entire "Cave Community", when it absolutely does not, and any of these polls are not necessarily representative of the whole.
I am not saying that I believe that any non cave certified person should be cave diving. I do not. HOWEVER, it appears from the information that I have seen, that this was a diving accident that just happened to occur in a cave, not a cave diving accident.
No matter how we, as cave divers, look at it to non-cave divers it's another cave diving fatality. No amount of educational outreach will change that perception. And the OW shops and instructors are still going to take students there. I say gate it.
OFG-1
11-05-2009, 08:27 AM
John-read all the news reports all over Tampa area newspapers and TV,I would say it is out there already. More fatalities is that stupidity. What is stupidity-OW divers diving there?
Diveshops leading OW dive trips? Instructors taking non cave diver students there for deep training? So I ask what really is stupid? I think the stupidity is the deer in the headlights mentality.
Well, my friend, I have read all of the available reports. Worse, I have read the useless speculation that keeps droning on for page after page here and TDS every time someone dies. It changes nothing. Never has.
As I said, I do not endorse OW divers diving in caves. I have personally had to help remove the aftermath of three of these accidents over the last 34 years, one in Devils, one in Jenny, and one in Peacock. In case any of you don't know, its ugly.
As far as instructors taking people there,report them to their agencies. It may not work, but complaining about it on the internet is less than nothing. It is about the same as rubbing Vick's Vaporub on the hemorrhoid of the dive community. BTW, what kind of dive to you think Zuber is for deep training? Zuber is much worse than Buford, but most of you don't seem to have a problem with it. And if any of you youngsters dont know, Zuber is now called 40 fathom grotto, a clever bit of marketing by Mr Watts.
My suggestion is not to freeze in the headlights, but to stay the hell out of the headlights until you actually know what happened. Yes, it may sound like a ridiculous position to take, you know, to have actual facts before reaching a conclusion, but I have found it to usually be better. The press is going to report anything they want to. You cannot stop them. You can only correct them, or ignore them. Some idiot reporter reads your poll, and tomorrow, we have a story that the entire cave community wanted certification checks, but the government did not do it. I can hear the chain on the gate locking from here.
At TDS, you even now have morons crawling out of the woodwork wanting to pass laws against cave diving without proper certification. What agency has the time or budget to police this? And, as you should know, it is far easier and cheaper just to lock the gate than it is to set up any kind of screening. In case you forgot, try to get into Little Dismal.
And, as long as we have people as experienced as Steve Berman and Ron Simmons making mistakes and cacking themselves , jumping to the conclusion that this guys certification level was the reason he drowned is foolish. My point? Very experienced and certified people do enough stupid things already, we don't need endless comments about others doing them.
ANd RN, Lost Sink (now rebranded as Eagle's Nest) was gated and totally closed for years. It was damn hard to sneak too, you had to drive through the back of a garbage dump.
Line Squirrel
11-05-2009, 08:36 AM
No matter how we, as cave divers, look at it to non-cave divers it's another cave diving fatality.
Exactly
The accident at School is evidence that even with a sign in procedure and a gate, unqualified divers will still gain access to caves. As a matter of fact, the guys told the shop that they just wanted to have a look at School before going up to the Nest for a dive. One was Intro to Cave and the other not certified. So at least the Nest isn't closed now on account of them. Maybe the nest should be a guided system using the same guidelines as diving at School. I can see the flames rising as I write this, but as is the case in too many fields, the stupid always screw things up for the halfway intelligent....
Frank Ohidy, BOD member NSS-CDS
netmage
11-05-2009, 08:50 AM
Kelly, in my opinion ALL of the agencies need to get on board with one idea...
Places like eagles nest are not suitable for any degree of non-cave training and diving...
A bit over a year ago, a buddy of mine escalated a concern to NAUI Tec where a cave\tech instructor took a group of spearo's to EN to do some dives for their AdvNitrox\Deco\Helitrox class.
Their response was, that was ok, as long as within the pervue of a class. And to some extent, I can see the logic, as the instructor himself was also a cave instructor, and should have been able to fully brief about the limits and dangers of the overhead, and manage the situation, than say someone who was not.
However, I think it also exposes these students into what I'll refer to as the 'attractive nuisance'... The pool without a fence... The temptation to push beyond their training, just a little bit, until their deep in the ****...
Only the agencies, under penalty of yanking an instructor\leadership card can enforce this.
-Tim
Maybe the Nest needs a Grim Reaper sign at the dock.
smaclean
11-05-2009, 09:06 AM
There is a 4x8 foot sign describing the death and mayhem experienced by untrained divers in the parking lot. You then pass the memorial cross just outside the solution tube. As you drop down on top of the debris cone there is a grim reaper sign. I don't believe any more signage would have changed this incident. The only sign that might have some effect would be a sign like this..."attention all scuba divers! If you have been brought to this site by an instructor who has told you it is perfectly safe to dive in this cave they are lying and you need to flee. Many open water instructors have died in this cave because there is NO substitute for cave training. If the instructor persists in this activity, call his certification agency or a good attorney.
Kelly,
Why stop at Eagles Nest? Shouldn't we just gate up all caves?
jj1987
11-05-2009, 10:11 AM
Maybe the Nest needs a Grim Reaper sign at the dock.
In case someone misses the one already in the cave?
People do this because "it wont happen to me". Why do we pretend like they didn't or don't know better? A sign warns people who are unaware of the dangers when they get there, with the internet, news media, and training agencies all having articles on cave diving, I doubt anyone entering caves these days doesn't no better.
Arctic Mike
11-05-2009, 10:13 AM
Only the agencies, under penalty of yanking an instructor\leadership card can enforce this.
-Tim
Unfortunately, Instructors are the money makers for agencies, and therfore not likely to have their credentials pulled without an awful lot of evidence. And how many violations WOULD it take for an Instructor to lose his status with an agency? How would the agencies investigate claims of violations? Where will that money come from? Do they investigate every complaint from any dissatisfied OW student? I don't see something like this happening, although I think it is a very good idea.
LiteHedded
11-05-2009, 10:22 AM
gate the parking area like cow
i don't have a problem with checking in at some local dive shop.
Slüdge
11-05-2009, 10:25 AM
And how many violations WOULD it take for an Instructor to lose his status with an agency?
With respect to taking non-cave trained divers to Eagle's Nest for a trimix class, the answer should be "one." One needn't be a deep sea detective to figure that one out.
chilldive
11-05-2009, 10:33 AM
There is a 4x8 foot sign describing the death and mayhem experienced by untrained divers in the parking lot. You then pass the memorial cross just outside the solution tube. As you drop down on top of the debris cone there is a grim reaper sign. I don't believe any more signage would have changed this incident. The only sign that might have some effect would be a sign like this..."attention all scuba divers! If you have been brought to this site by an instructor who has told you it is perfectly safe to dive in this cave they are lying and you need to flee. Many open water instructors have died in this cave because there is NO substitute for cave training. If the instructor persists in this activity, call his certification agency or a good attorney.
You can't legislate stupidity. The gov't says I have to wear a seatbelt. They actually passed a law! That's nuts. I know the risks of not wearing one, but I still don't most of the time. You can call me stupid or whatever, but it's my choice and I don't want anyone regulating that level of detail in my life. The good part is, I went thru the driver training classes, I see the commercials and the billboards, etc. Lots of info out there telling me I should wear a seatbelt and why. Now it's my choice.
Same thing with any kind of diving. I've never been to the Nest, but it's nice to hear there are plenty of warning signs. When I go snow skiiing and venture into the back country, I see signs that warn me of impending dangers like avalanches or exposed rock. I like that, now if I choose to enter that area I know what I'm getting into and have made a concious decision.
I do think that instructors should be liable for their students. Taking them to dive somewhere is just the same as telling them it's ok, even when the instructor is not with them. Those instructors can explain all they want about the dangers and that students shouldn't dive there without instruction, but if they then use that site for training, it's just sending a two sided message. It's like me telling my kids to wear a seatbelt, but not wearing one myself (I do wear one when my kids are in the car just to set the example).
People are going to be stupid. Getting the appropriate information out to the general diving public is the key. Then let them make their own decisions. Signs are great. Magazine articles are great. Information coming thru agencies is great.
Come to think of it, why don't we put signs at 120 ft on ocean reefs to tell people not to dive below that? Cause we teach people that stuff in classes. It's reinforced in classes and magazine articles, etc. But recreational divers violate that rule all the time. Should we put legislation in place to stop it? After all isn't it the duty of us smart people to protect everyone else? I think not - our job is to get the info out there, then let people make their own decisions.
Slüdge
11-05-2009, 10:38 AM
Hijack:
One of the great ironies of life: If I drive a car in Florida I have to wear a seatbelt. But if I'm on a motorcycle, I don't even have to wear a helmet.
:smt102
Hijack over.
Arctic Mike
11-05-2009, 11:59 AM
With respect to taking non-cave trained divers to Eagle's Nest for a trimix class, the answer should be "one." One needn't be a deep sea detective to figure that one out.
SHOULD be "one". I agree with that. However, put yourself in the agencies shoes. This guy has brought thousands of dollars into their coffers and he made this "one" misguided judgement. The agency is going to pull his certification? Yeah, right!
Kelly Jessop
11-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Kelly,
Why stop at Eagles Nest? Shouldn't we just gate up all caves?
Eagles Nest has always had a history of being unforgiving of mistakes,and has claimed quite a few people. Due to the technical challange of this dive I think is deserves more respect from the people diving it,than it gets. When there is a dive to the Doria,will the boat operator allow someone on the trip that has a single tank,jacket BC,and a snorkel,plus only OW card only. All I am saying is that if this site continues be abused,and rack up a body count,we will lose the site-easiest way for governmental agenices to solve a problem. Can anybody be content with what is occuring?
chilldive
11-05-2009, 01:40 PM
Just curious... is there data somewhere that shows the number of fatalities for each site?
crawford
11-05-2009, 01:43 PM
If nothing else, seems we could do something to stop the dive shops from taking OW divers there. Anyone that goes with a dive shop on a guided dive will certainly return on their own, and feel it is ok because a shop has brought them before.
Someone will always sneak in and you won't stop that entirely. If they had violated some stated rules though in doing so seems it would help the appearance or perception of the incident....ie. it was a rule breaker not inherent to the risks of Eagles Nest for any qualified diver.
I want to dive the Nest one day, when I'm ready. I also want to dive Wakulla, etc. and afraid these incidents may prevent those sites from opening up.
Just curious... is there data somewhere that shows the number of fatalities for each site?
Yes, but it is not online. Jeff Bozanic has all the cave accident files, so he would be the one to contact.
I've been calling and emailing for over a year now with no response at all from jeff...and we are both on NACD committees. I don't think he's a sharing kind of person.
-skip
You can't legislate stupidity. The gov't says I have to wear a seatbelt. They actually passed a law! That's nuts. I know the risks of not wearing one, but I still don't most of the time. You can call me stupid or whatever, but it's my choice and I don't want anyone regulating that level of detail in my life. The good part is, I went thru the driver training classes, I see the commercials and the billboards, etc. Lots of info out there telling me I should wear a seatbelt and why. Now it's my choice.
Same thing with any kind of diving. I've never been to the Nest, but it's nice to hear there are plenty of warning signs. When I go snow skiiing and venture into the back country, I see signs that warn me of impending dangers like avalanches or exposed rock. I like that, now if I choose to enter that area I know what I'm getting into and have made a concious decision.
I do think that instructors should be liable for their students. Taking them to dive somewhere is just the same as telling them it's ok, even when the instructor is not with them. Those instructors can explain all they want about the dangers and that students shouldn't dive there without instruction, but if they then use that site for training, it's just sending a two sided message. It's like me telling my kids to wear a seatbelt, but not wearing one myself (I do wear one when my kids are in the car just to set the example).
People are going to be stupid. Getting the appropriate information out to the general diving public is the key. Then let them make their own decisions. Signs are great. Magazine articles are great. Information coming thru agencies is great.
Come to think of it, why don't we put signs at 120 ft on ocean reefs to tell people not to dive below that? Cause we teach people that stuff in classes. It's reinforced in classes and magazine articles, etc. But recreational divers violate that rule all the time. Should we put legislation in place to stop it? After all isn't it the duty of us smart people to protect everyone else? I think not - our job is to get the info out there, then let people make their own decisions.
I think we should go farther. Why don't we get back to the concept that individuals are responsible for their own actions ? If someone dies doing something they initiated or agreed to, its an unfortunate case. Its not a sueable case, or a model for yet another law or regulation, just unfortunate. There is actually precedent for this. It's the USA over the first 150 years or so.
But we've all let the legislators, lawyers, and judges, who by definition support more restrictions, continue to restrict citizen's rights. So now, ever time someone does something stupid, yet another law, ruling or regulation is forthcoming.
If we had any long term sense, we would not try to regulate people's behavior, we would fight those who would attempt to restrict our rights based on the behavior of others.
I think we should go farther. Why don't we get back to the concept that individuals are responsible for their own actions ? If someone dies doing something they initiated or agreed to, its an unfortunate case. Its not a sueable case, or a model for yet another law or regulation, just unfortunate. There is actually precedent for this. It's the USA over the first 150 years or so.
But we've all let the legislators, lawyers, and judges, who by definition support more restrictions, continue to restrict citizen's rights. So now, ever time someone does something stupid, yet another law, ruling or regulation is forthcoming.
If we had any long term sense, we would not try to regulate people's behavior, we would fight those who would attempt to restrict our rights based on the behavior of others.
Agreed..... :)
Safe diving,
Rich
tflaris
11-05-2009, 05:37 PM
The accident at School is evidence that even with a sign in procedure and a gate, unqualified divers will still gain access to caves. As a matter of fact, the guys told the shop that they just wanted to have a look at School before going up to the Nest for a dive. One was Intro to Cave and the other not certified. So at least the Nest isn't closed now on account of them. Maybe the nest should be a guided system using the same guidelines as diving at School. I can see the flames rising as I write this, but as is the case in too many fields, the stupid always screw things up for the halfway intelligent....
Frank Ohidy, BOD member NSS-CDS
No more guided sites...............Please for the love of GOD.
tflaris
11-05-2009, 05:39 PM
There is a 4x8 foot sign describing the death and mayhem experienced by untrained divers in the parking lot. You then pass the memorial cross just outside the solution tube. As you drop down on top of the debris cone there is a grim reaper sign. I don't believe any more signage would have changed this incident. The only sign that might have some effect would be a sign like this..."attention all scuba divers! If you have been brought to this site by an instructor who has told you it is perfectly safe to dive in this cave they are lying and you need to flee. Many open water instructors have died in this cave because there is NO substitute for cave training. If the instructor persists in this activity, call his certification agency or a good attorney.
That's a sign I like.......
Benthic
11-05-2009, 06:43 PM
No more guided sites...............Please for the love of GOD.
Amen to that! The LAST thing we need is more guided cave systems. We have too many already. Don't go making it harder on the rest of us just because someone else did something stupid. I think the notion of Eagle's Nest being closed may be a bit overstated anyway. If it's true that only four people have died there since 1990 then Ginnie is in far more danger of being closed than Eagle's Nest is.
Brian
aainslie
11-05-2009, 06:57 PM
No more guided sites...............Please for the love of GOD.
Agreed Tony. "Guided" for me pretty much means "not going to get dived". Too much hassle.
mfascuba
11-05-2009, 08:54 PM
I saw the Bay News 9 report this afternoon. They say that this is the fourth fatality since 1990. There was one in 1990, two in 2004, and this one. For a site this unforgiving and this open, not too bad. Look at the count at Ginnie - I'm a relative newcomer (2001 was when I did my cavern class) and it's been about one or two a year there.
More regulation is not the answer. Perhaps a 4x8 foot photo board of a body laying on the deck that has been recovered (with the face blurred out) would do the trick. When there is a large sign that says "don't do this unless you know what you're doing - you have a good chance of ending up dead" doesn't do the trick, I don't know what else to suggest. You can't fix stupid. Hell, I was stupid there last year, scared the crap out of myself trying to do progressive self-taught trimix. On my second or third time up there I made the decision to go find an instructor and take the damned class - I'm glad I did. I learned a lot. I was stupid, I saw the error, I corrected, I'm still alive to ***** about stuff on the internet. Others have not been so lucky.
Mark
chilldive
11-05-2009, 10:09 PM
I think we should go farther. Why don't we get back to the concept that individuals are responsible for their own actions ? If someone dies doing something they initiated or agreed to, its an unfortunate case. Its not a sueable case, or a model for yet another law or regulation, just unfortunate. There is actually precedent for this. It's the USA over the first 150 years or so.
But we've all let the legislators, lawyers, and judges, who by definition support more restrictions, continue to restrict citizen's rights. So now, ever time someone does something stupid, yet another law, ruling or regulation is forthcoming.
If we had any long term sense, we would not try to regulate people's behavior, we would fight those who would attempt to restrict our rights based on the behavior of others.
Yeah... what he said.
Kelly Jessop
11-05-2009, 10:14 PM
I saw the Bay News 9 report this afternoon. They say that this is the fourth fatality since 1990. There was one in 1990, two in 2004, and this one. For a site this unforgiving and this open, not too bad. Look at the count at Ginnie - I'm a relative newcomer (2001 was when I did my cavern class) and it's been about one or two a year there.
I am sure that if you compared the number of visitors per year to each site, the number would be more relative. Eagles Nest has the potential for a lot more,because there isn't just an OW diver with a flashlight in the Ballroom that snuck past the guard,you have the instructor with them. I have seen some really bad things at Ginnie over the years,but nothing compares to the repeated problems that go on at EN.
ANd RN, Lost Sink (now rebranded as Eagle's Nest) was gated and totally closed for years. It was damn hard to sneak too, you had to drive through the back of a garbage dump.
I'm not suggesting it get closed entirely, just that a similar system get put in place as at Cow, if for nothing more than to keep OW classes out of there. While this may only be the 4th fatality in almost 20 years, OW divers at EN is a common topic of discussion on the boards.
caverkevin
11-06-2009, 04:18 AM
This forum needs a like or green button!! I want to show my approval for this comment.
Gate sounds like a great idea. Keep the families out that walk in to swim and fish. Provide another means to check fishing and hunting licenses as well.....
Kelly,
Why stop at Eagles Nest? Shouldn't we just gate up all caves?
DA Aquamaster
11-06-2009, 07:04 AM
You can't legislate stupidity. The gov't says I have to wear a seatbelt. They actually passed a law! That's nuts. I know the risks of not wearing one, but I still don't most of the time. You can call me stupid or whatever, but it's my choice and I don't want anyone regulating that level of detail in my life. The good part is, I went thru the driver training classes, I see the commercials and the billboards, etc. Lots of info out there telling me I should wear a seatbelt and why. Now it's my choice.
Same thing with any kind of diving. I've never been to the Nest, but it's nice to hear there are plenty of warning signs. When I go snow skiiing and venture into the back country, I see signs that warn me of impending dangers like avalanches or exposed rock. I like that, now if I choose to enter that area I know what I'm getting into and have made a concious decision.
I agree with you in terms of accepting personal responsibility and also accepting the consequences of your actions.
I like motorcycles, I can appreciate the greater pleasure of riding without a helmet. But I also worked for several years as a rehabilitation counselor trying to put people back together after things like motorcycle accidents where a helmet would have prevented their traumatic brain injury. Without exception it cost a shitload of money, most of it public tax dollars.
I am all for personal responsibility and letting people set their own limts. But as a taxpayer, I want them to sign a waiver saying they will forego any and all government benefits in the event their decision results in injury or death.
If you look at the "safety" related legistlation of the last 50 years (seat belt laws, control of certain drugs, etc, it goes hand in hand with general safety nets that have a positive function in terms of ensuring people get needed medical care, are not forced to work in unsafe conditions, etc.
In effect, your rights and my rights stop when they infringe on someone else's rights. So unless we can find a way to prevent everyone else from suffering the consequences of one person's stupidity, attempts to legislate safety are inevitable.
The same applies to the cave diving and technical diving communities. If any cave diver or technical diver decides to do something stupid or imprudent and runs the risk of dying and in turn closing a cave, bringing down more restrictive legislation, rules, restrictions, etc, then that a$$hole is in fact risking the infringment of my rights along with his life and our tax dollars.
More rules, laws and restrictions are the ineffective result, but the only things that will work are a community ethic that does not tolerate that behavior and better assessment of the divers who are certified as cave and technical divers to eliminate the morons, adrenaline junkies and those who simply lack common sense or good judgment.
If instructors with OW classes are the main issue, report them all to the agencies.
Yes I saw the comments about money, but it worked at Ginnie. In 1978, I wrote to all the agencies that had instructors teaching at Ginnie. It prompted most of them to send out letters to all of their instructors, stating that there was to be no OW training in overhead environments. FWIW, that reduced the number of cave fatalities form over a dozen a year to almost none.
I don't get to Eagle's Nest very often, or I would do it myself. If you want to keep the Nest open, get the names of the instructors and their agencies, and report them. Also put in a description of the cave, and mention the fatalities there. If you have the attitude that "it won't do any good", then we all loose. Sure they might discount one report as insignificant, but if they get enough complaints, they will have to do something.
OFG-1
11-06-2009, 07:18 AM
If instructors with OW classes are the main issue, report them all to the agencies.
Yes I saw the comments about money, but it worked at Ginnie. In 1978, I wrote to all the agencies that had instructors teaching at Ginnie. It prompted most of them to send out letters to all of their instructors, stating that there was to be no OW training in overhead environments. FWIW, that reduced the number of cave fatalities form over a dozen a year to almost none.
I don't get to Eagle's Nest very often, or I would do it myself. If you want to keep the Nest open, get the names of the instructors and their agencies, and report them. Also put in a description of the cave, and mention the fatalities there. If you have the attitude that "it won't do any good", then we all loose. Sure they might discount one report as insignificant, but if they get enough complaints, they will have to do something.
ALSO, write the instructors insurance companies. There are not that many of them. I watched V&B kill the entire PADI cave diving program over one letter.
ALSO, write the instructors insurance companies. There are not that many of them. I watched V&B kill the entire PADI cave diving program over one letter.
Oooh, great idea!
smaclean
11-06-2009, 08:53 AM
Just playing devils advocate about standards violations. If I take open water divers to do a check out dive at the nest and never go deeper than 40-50 feet I have not violated ANY training standards. The issue is now each of my divers can and often do go back there post certification and check out that cool looking hole in the bottom of the pond. My hope is that now that Weeki Wachee is a state park with more reasonable access that instructors will take students there instead of the nest. Its a much better site for check out dives and has easier access.
DA Aquamaster
11-06-2009, 08:55 AM
ALSO, write the instructors insurance companies. There are not that many of them. I watched V&B kill the entire PADI cave diving program over one letter.It's an excellent idea as it follows the money. A training agency's objection to sancitoning instructors is a potential loss of revenue, but the insurance company's monetary concern will be limiting it's potential liability for claims posed by these instructors. Potentially, if a company gets enough complaints about a particular agency's instrcutors, the insurance company will put pressure on the agency and that will get a response.
Just playing devils advocate about standards violations. If I take open water divers to do a check out dive at the nest and never go deeper than 40-50 feet I have not violated ANY training standards. The issue is now each of my divers can and often do go back there post certification and check out that cool looking hole in the bottom of the pond. You are right that you would not violate any training standards, but the message sent to the student is none the less that this is an OK place to dive at the OW level.
That may be within the standards but it is not a responsible thing to do as the freshly minted OW diver is quite frankly too ignorant to know or appreciate the risks. They simply do not know enough to understand what they don't know or how it can kill them.
When you take it a step further and consider the potential for a non cave trained OW Instructor, then you have a situation where the OW student may not even be effectively briefed on the dangers of diving in an overhead environment.
In either case, I'd question whether the instructor should be instructing as their judgment and their ability to foresee the logical and reasonable consequences of their instructional methods and choice of locations is seriously impaired.
crawford
11-06-2009, 09:50 AM
Gate sounds like a great idea. Keep the families out that walk in to swim and fish. Provide another means to check fishing and hunting licenses as well.....
Good point Kevin. We are being a bit self-focused on this.
Line Squirrel
11-06-2009, 10:18 AM
That may be within the standards but it is not a responsible thing to do as the freshly minted OW diver is quite frankly too ignorant to know or appreciate the risks. They simply do not know enough to understand what they don't know or how it can kill them.
Now I'll play devil's advocate.
The same could be said for taking an OW student into the ocean or any deep lake for that matter...you can tell them untill you're blue in the face that they are trained for a maximum of 60ft or whatever but there is nothing stopping them from coming back on their own and diving to whatever depth "they" think they are ready for.
mpoucher
11-06-2009, 12:44 PM
Having been directly involved in re-opening Eagle's Nest, it concerns me that the knee-jerk reaction is to try and over regulate the site. One of the most refreshing things I saw from the Fish and Wildlife Commission was their realization that you can't protect people from their own stupidity. There is a sign warning potential divers of the dangers of cave diving and that they must be cave trained before diving. If people ignore that, they dive at their own risk.
The site has been open now for some time and their have only been two accidents. The first one, both divers were cave trained, and were qualified enough to access the site under any rules. The last one should have known better from what little I read. Given the accessibility of the site, the vast majority of divers are following the rules. Why punish the vast majority of those using the site for the few that aren't listening anyway?
Cave Diver
11-06-2009, 12:46 PM
This may be a stupid question, but I've never been afraid of those before.
Can signs be posted and enforced to the effect that anyone diving at EN without a cave certification is subject to prosecution for criminal trespass?
This would preclude instructors from being able to bring non-cave trained students there under punishment of law, even if they don't intend to dive the cave, while allowing access to cave trained divers.
The only cave students that would be training here would be for an advanced class (i.e. they already have full cave cert) so it wouldnt apply to them, but it would weed out all the others. If getting caught "sneak diving" beyond their certs posed criminal penalties that might be provide the deterrent that a lack of training doesnt.
mpoucher
11-06-2009, 12:51 PM
I like the previous suggestion to report the OW instructors taking student's to Eagle's Nest. That's responsibility in action.
Based on conversations some years ago, in my opinion, if FFW sees the need to take any action on diving it will be to prohibit it entirely. They don't have the time, budget, or inclination to try and police divers. They have enough to do with the hunter's on the site.
DA Aquamaster
11-06-2009, 01:18 PM
Now I'll play devil's advocate.
The same could be said for taking an OW student into the ocean or any deep lake for that matter...you can tell them untill you're blue in the face that they are trained for a maximum of 60ft or whatever but there is nothing stopping them from coming back on their own and diving to whatever depth "they" think they are ready for.That's a logic fallacy. Let me magnify it to illustrate it. You're making the argument that taking them anywhere in the ocean is the same as saying the pool is open on the whole thing.
The average OW student won't take the cognitive leap of thinking that just because they passed their OW checkout dive in the Atlantic that a deep dive like the Andrea Doria is now a do-able dive, because it's in the same ocean.
But what they will do is think that they are good to go on this particular site because they have been here before with an instructor. On their return, the temptation to go just a little farther or a little deeper/farther is seductive because the area is confined and it is just incrementally different than their previous experience.
The problem is not going a liitle deeper than their cert, as to be honest, that is not a major killer of OW divers in the open ocean as the conditions change at a fairly linear rate as do the risks, but rather the problem is that in a place like EN, they won't recognize the difference in where they are until it is too late as the differences and the risks do not increase in a linear fashion.
Line Squirrel
11-06-2009, 01:33 PM
That's a logic fallacy. Let me magnify it to illustrate it....
Yea...I gota agree with ya. My analogy wasn't the best.
neptune
11-06-2009, 01:37 PM
I agree with Mike P.
Report OW Instructors, and educate uncertified divers.
Education is the key.
We pay for access to Chaz. We don't pay the fee to dive.
Just my 2 cents.
sdenney
11-06-2009, 01:39 PM
The answer to that question is no! Chassahowitzka is a National Wildlife Refuge, meaning that the site is open for the public enjoyment.
This may be a stupid question, but I've never been afraid of those before.
Can signs be posted and enforced to the effect that anyone diving at EN without a cave certification is subject to prosecution for criminal trespass?
This would preclude instructors from being able to bring non-cave trained students there under punishment of law, even if they don't intend to dive the cave, while allowing access to cave trained divers.
The only cave students that would be training here would be for an advanced class (i.e. they already have full cave cert) so it wouldnt apply to them, but it would weed out all the others. If getting caught "sneak diving" beyond their certs posed criminal penalties that might be provide the deterrent that a lack of training doesnt.
Slüdge
11-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Can signs be posted and enforced to the effect that anyone diving at EN without a cave certification is subject to prosecution for criminal trespass?
The answer to that question is no!
Actually, this seems like a pretty good idea. In graduate school (business law) we talked about signs that were effective although they had no legal standing. For example, ever see those signs on dump trucks that say to stay back 300 feet, that the truck isn't responsible for broken windshields? The fact is, they are. You have every right to follow the truck just as closely as any other vehicle, but if a rock falls off and breaks a windshield, most people think the truck is free from responsibility, so they don't bother contacting the company.
Although EN is public land, I think a sign warning divers that diving without cave training will subject them to criminal trespass charges (even though it really won't) might keep some people out.
Cave Diver
11-06-2009, 05:00 PM
The answer to that question is no! Chassahowitzka is a National Wildlife Refuge, meaning that the site is open for the public enjoyment.
So no national wildlife refuge has places on them that have restricted or limited access to the general public for safety reasons?
Cave Diver
11-06-2009, 05:16 PM
A case with charges for trespassing in a national park.
http://minneapolis.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel09/mp081409.htm
* Note: * I'm not a lawyer, or law enforcement official, but it would seem that there can be enforcement of trespass in parts of national parks. I have no idea if they can do this selectively based on being "qualified" for an activity or not. (i.e. diving, climbing, etc.) But it would seem to be one possible solution.
Edit: A little more info on this idea.
Authority: 16 U.S.C. 1, 3, 9a, 462(k).
Source: 48 FR 30282, June 30, 1983, unless otherwise noted.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is
prohibited:
<snip>
(5) Walking on, climbing, entering, ascending, descending, or
traversing an archeological or cultural resource, monument, or statue,
except in designated areas and under conditions established by the
superintendent.
Herbie
11-06-2009, 05:25 PM
Lost Sink aka Eagles Nest is not our property, we have no right to gate the place. Its open to everyone like hunters, fishermen, hikers, birdwatchers, divers, snorkelers, nature freaks , young and old etc...There are plenty of warning signs specific to cave diving there, some people have a need to feel close to the Reaper and sometimes get close enough for him to keep. Putting up a gate sucks , besides excluding other non diving park users I belive it will bring about the end of cave diving there once again. This discussion makes us all look bad , shut up and go dive, dive, dive...
ps. I voted for continuing educational outreach , most people listen a few will not , so be it.
As a public we do have the right to request our elected representatives to do just about anything we can think of, we have the right to contact authorities and inquire and suggest and to do so as individuals and as a group.
I am all in favor of public access at all times and of letting nature do the selecting. But in this case I voted in favor of gating with controlled access. The way it's set up a gate on the road before the parking area would be a major impediment to access. It would easily dissuade open water classes, but maybe not the determined team (who will always find a way).
-skip
sdenney
11-06-2009, 07:27 PM
Chassahowitzka is NOT a National Park. It is a National Wildlife Refuge. These areas are not under the auspices of the parks service and they never will be (Thank God).
A case with charges for trespassing in a national park.
http://minneapolis.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel09/mp081409.htm
* Note: * I'm not a lawyer, or law enforcement official, but it would seem that there can be enforcement of trespass in parts of national parks. I have no idea if they can do this selectively based on being "qualified" for an activity or not. (i.e. diving, climbing, etc.) But it would seem to be one possible solution.
Edit: A little more info on this idea.
timle
11-06-2009, 07:32 PM
This discussion makes us all look bad , shut up and go dive, dive, dive...
Couldn't agree more. I voted for status quo - I believe the education, outreach, and warning signs have been VERY effective. There are many more cave dives per year than in the 70s, yet there are few deaths per year. A death, while extremely tragic, should not blind us to those facts.
Cave Diver
11-06-2009, 09:38 PM
Chassahowitzka is NOT a National Park. It is a National Wildlife Refuge. These areas are not under the auspices of the parks service and they never will be (Thank God).
Thanks for the clarification
If instructors with OW classes are the main issue, report them all to the agencies.
Yes I saw the comments about money, but it worked at Ginnie. In 1978, I wrote to all the agencies that had instructors teaching at Ginnie. It prompted most of them to send out letters to all of their instructors, stating that there was to be no OW training in overhead environments. FWIW, that reduced the number of cave fatalities form over a dozen a year to almost none.
I don't get to Eagle's Nest very often, or I would do it myself. If you want to keep the Nest open, get the names of the instructors and their agencies, and report them. Also put in a description of the cave, and mention the fatalities there. If you have the attitude that "it won't do any good", then we all loose. Sure they might discount one report as insignificant, but if they get enough complaints, they will have to do something.
It's been done. The recreational agencies don't care. And some of them know what the sink/cave looks like. The training director from the largest recreational training agency in the world just did a dive there last weekend...
I haven't been to Eagle's Nest, but is there a way to place a gate far enough from the sink that it would make diving it too inconvenient without getting access to drive through. This way people could still walk to it, just not drive to it?
Benthic
11-07-2009, 11:01 AM
<snip>
I haven't been to Eagle's Nest, but is there a way to place a gate far enough from the sink that it would make diving it too inconvenient without getting access to drive through. This way people could still walk to it, just not drive to it?
Maybe, but probably not. Such a gate could certainly be put up. But I think that the hunters would probably not like it because it would limit their access to that area of the property, and there's a lot more of them then there are of us. Besides, the long walk to Buford Sink (which is also on the Chaz property) doesn't seem to deter the open water divers.
As they say, make it idiot proof and someone will build a better (or more determined) idiot.
Brian
Hunters use the parking area as much or more than divers. There are several places where the road is narrow and tree-lined and a gate could be put up, especially if an alternate parking area is cleared at the gate. A gate could also be put up at the stairs. It's pretty narrow there and there's really no other way to get into the water except the platform/stairs.
But so far, with all the concern about open water classes and such, it's been the experienced divers, cave trained and not, that are dying in there. It's hard to make the case that a gate is needed to keep out OW classes, when it's not them dying!
a gate would at least allow a check-in and check-out procedure for divers, even if all divers were allowed access. nice to have some data on usage.
-skip
I remember a gate there with a dive flag attached to it. I assume that was how it was restricted in the past.
I personally dont feel closing or placing a gate is the way to go though.
Kelly Jessop
11-12-2009, 09:49 PM
Oh well...this is the responsibility of the agencies and their instructors to enforce this.
Ken Hill
11-13-2009, 08:41 AM
Oh well...this is the responsibility of the agencies and their instructors to enforce this.
Kelly is absolutely right about this. I just caught this post and admit to having not read each thread so if I am redundant I APOLOGIZE.
Some history.
1. Eagles Nest was closed because the land it sits on went from private ownership to public ownership. At that time the State of Florida gave control of the land to the water management district. After some time SWFWMD turned the land over to Florida Fish and Wildlife as a hunting preserve.
2. Access was denied to all based on the poor roadway throughout the preserve. Once the road was repaired and biological and environmental studies were completed public access was granted.
3. Initial discussion for diving proposed stringent requirements and diving passes that would be issued upon proof of certification levels i.e. Cave, mixed gas and scooter training. This was a joint effort of the CDS and the NACD. Dive passes based on certification levels were ultimately rejected by the state.
4. Access is by day pass or by annual pass (I use my hunting license.) There is a gate to the site and that is the iron ranger. When you enter the area you are agreeing to following the rules of the preserve whether diving or hunting.
Ultimately the people diving the site shoulder the responsibility for their behavior. Hunters are not supposed to cross fences with a loaded weapon but some do. Tree stands shouldn't have a field of fire across a roadway but some do. Divers should not dive beyond their certification but some do.
Access rules only work for people willing to follow them.
/Ken
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