One of the privileged few

[Cindy]

I was given a copy of a letter sent out by one of the members of ----- cave diving organization who wants to be on the BOD for that particular organization. The letter was of course a slam on the existing status quo in that organization. What I personally took exception too was the part of his letter that stated dive sites and projects that are available too only the "privileged few". As you scroll down both the project page and the 'dive site' page you will frequently see some of the same names. I would like to make a public statement about that. First: I have been on several projects and now am one of three people running a project that is funded by the organization this man wants to lead. None of the projects that are listed are 'thought up by or ran' by cave diving organizations. These projects are independent groups that go to cave diving organizations for help on funding. In exchange they share data with the organization, put on talks and do articles. Our project is Karst Terrain Explorers and for those of you who know us know that we actively seek divers. The Old Bellamy project is actively seeking divers on this forum. The names like mine that you see again and again are there because those divers actually show up and work and not because they are some privileged few. I find that extremely demeaning to myself and all the divers who bust their butts to run these projects and provide knowledge and opportunity to their fellow divers.

Next in this letter he referred to dive sites managed by this organization that are only available to the privileged few and specifically sited Alachua Sink/Mill Creek sink. I am a guide at that site. It is NOT a dive site. It is a nature preserve that is owned by the National Speleological Society and is run by a group of divers belonging to the cave organization that this person wants to run. Those guides are the men who had the land donated, care for that land and the cave, have made their names and personal numbers public, as well as make themselves available to dive with people. I have NEVER turned away a diver who met the qualifications to dive that site. I don't know of any other diver who had problems other than with the schedules of the volunteer guides who provide this service. We went through a lot of trouble to provide guides from all styles and training to accommodate the needs of divers. We do this because we care about the cave and want the cave to stay open to as many qualified divers as possible.

Both of the above issues have been spoken to on many occasions on forums and the information that discloses what I have just talked about is readily available for viewing on the web site of this organization. The diver who wrote this letter not only shows an incredible lack of knowledge of an organization he wants to run but a great lack of respect for the hard work of his fellow divers. He will not receive my vote.

Thank you taking the time to read this, Cindy Butler

[Dan Thoms]

The Karst, that i read about, is that the same org. that is also involved with GUE's exploration? Or is GUE, doing the exploration and providing info to nsscds? For thier projects? If it is the same, how is it possible to allow the nsscds, divers help out? GUE has a set of standards all to thier own.
Im not busting your balls, it didnt make any sense. So i figured i would ask. Your name, does seem to be around a bit. Must be doing something right,.

[Cindy]

Hey, No ours is Karst Terrain Explorations. WKPP is Woodenville (?) Karst Plains Project is the group associated with GUE. We are not that group. There is also Karst Environmental Services and Karst Productions that are owned by Wes Skiles, Pete Butt and crew. Our group is independant of all the organizations but has received funds from the CDS and the Chris Henson fund. We have 'project status' with the NACD but have not received any funds from them yet. We have a permit for the Suwannee River and San Falasco State parks. We explore and document both underwater and air filled caves. We do quite a few articles as a result of being a 'project' and receiving funds from the cave diving groups, we also share our survey data, maps and photos with them as well as the DEP of the State of Florida. You see my name and many of my friends names a lot because we volunteer with the parks and do a lot of guiding.

Hi Cindy,
I am "that man" that wrote that letter to all NSS-CDS members. Feel free to use my name. The letter specifically is regarding the performance of the CDS Board of Directors. It is not an attack on you and Al and your personal organization. The NSS-CDS is a non profit Florida corporation with just under 1000 members. I don't know the structure or membership of your "Karst Explorers". It is of no concern to me. What I do care about is CDS business and the fact is, if the CDS is going to give funds (which are generated by all membership) it has an obligation to apply the benefit of those funds in a way to benefit ALL members equally. Sorry you disagree.
The fact that the CDS does not have exclusivity in these projects is not relevant. If the CDS is involved in any way, that means the CDS does have exclusivity over how IT'S money will be spent. A membership organization is obligated to spend the majority of it's funds in a way to benefit the MAJORITY of it's members not a small minority. It appears you are part of the small minority. Sites like Cow Springs that allow any and all full cave rated members to dive should be pursued rather than sites where I repeat...A Privileged Few dive. The money belongs to the average majority not a small minority and MUST be spent for their benefit. You can do what you want in your organization..it is your personal group. The NSS-CDS, on the other hand, has approx. 1000 members that the BOD has to answer to. Thank God it's a free country. You can vote for any one you want to for the CDS BOD. You don't have to vote for me. Boo Hoo. But I promise if I am elected the average unspoken CDS Member will be represented by me and will profit from their involvement in the CDS.
By the way I am well aware of the management status of Mill Creek (or Alachua Sink as most know it by). I am also well aware of the status of the NSS-CDS politics and BOD as I am actively involved with the NSS-CDS and the NACD. I am not involved in "any" private cave projects. I am a CDS instructor and involved with the NSS-CDS. My politics are NSS-CDS politics and that is my only agenda. I have not seen you, on the other hand, at any CDS Board meetings lately.
Finally, please feel free to get involved in the CDS and if you are willing to work for the benefit of all members then please run for the Board and give us the opportunity to vote you in. Please feel free to contact me personally and we can talk about what we can do to make the cave diving world a better place...for everyone.

Ralph DiPanfilo

[Dan Thoms]

Hey, No ours is Karst Terrain Explorations. WKPP is Woodenville (?) Karst Plains Project is the group associated with GUE. We are not that group. There is also Karst Environmental Services and Karst Productions that are owned by Wes Skiles, Pete Butt and crew. Our group is independant of all the organizations but has received funds from the CDS and the Chris Henson fund. We have 'project status' with the NACD but have not received any funds from them yet. We have a permit for the Suwannee River and San Falasco State parks. We explore and document both underwater and air filled caves. We do quite a few articles as a result of being a 'project' and receiving funds from the cave diving groups, we also share our survey data, maps and photos with them as well as the DEP of the State of Florida. You see my name and many of my friends names a lot because we volunteer with the parks and do a lot of guiding.


oh,..Now it makes alot more sense. As you could see i wasnt trying to be funny. There are alot of Karst. Just a bit confused.
thanks, Cindy

[Genesis]

Its tough for me to take a position - or even join the ===== - when so much of the web site associated with it is broken, non-functional or severely out of date.

For example, the online form for membership comes back with a "file not found" error.

I'd be interested in joining if I would be able to vote as a member (some orgs seem to want me to have subscribed to a specific list of classes before granting me voting "privileges") and if I had faith that my membership would be promptly processed (broken links on the web page are not a good sign!)

FWIW, I believe that funds from membership orgs like this, especially 501c(3) ones, should inure to the benefit of all the members. The statements from the various candidates have, mostly, something to like in each case.

The "who promises the most good" problem would be, quite honestly, be difficult to figure out given what I've read from the position statement link here.

However, I can't vote, in no small part because I can't figure out how to successfully join! :D

[curtschu]

I too found the link broken on the web sit you mentioned but if you click on the "more pages" Link it takes you to the main page and that has a working link to the online membership page. I did notice something interesting about the domain that the links go to.... Hummmm.

[Cindy]

I am not running for the board. I don't have to go to the meetings. That's why we elect people. I do contact board members on a fairly regular basis to let them know how I feel about things. If I had mentioned a name my post would not have been allowed on this forum.
No one can make 100% of the divers happy. You have just proven my point by demeaning what I stated in my post. (boo hoo?) The people elected to boards represent all cave divers in the negotiations and contacts that need to be done to keep an organization running, contact new land owners and negotiate with the state. You are not on the board yet and have made quite a few people upset.
About our project. Both the Old Bellamy and our projects have very small member basis. The reason is the conditions of the caves we are diving. You mentioned in your letter opening up the caves that the projects are working to all the members. Opening them up would not be allowed by the state and would be dangerous for everyone involved. Management of divers is a challange at both sites. We have around 12 members but list only the three contact members, we actively seek new members but it takes a lot of time and effort to train and be on these teams and few divers are able to maintain the commitment. It's not just about diving, there is the tabulations of data, ridge walking, survey, mapping, meetings, giving talks and all the other work we do. The CDS voted for the project because they felt that the relationships we maintain with the DEP were worthy and the information that we provide to the organization benifits all the divers who belong. You can vote any way you want when if you get elected. I would hope your vote is not given out of ignorance or spite.

Hi Cindy,
Thank you again for your input. No, you are right, when you represent a majority you can not make everyone happy. My letter to NSS-CDS members which you paraphrased to start this thread was mailed and is being e mailed to CDS members was closed by me by asking anyone who wanted to personally contact me to please do so. I then included my personal e mail and home phone number. You chose not to do so but to post your indignation on this public forum. That's OK. I will say out loud what many, many members think. But I can not mention their names because of the rules. You can, however, contact me personally for more specific information about what I know. I will be glad to talk to you.
For the record:
...I don't make decisions "out of spite or ignorance" as that's simply bad business.
...The majority of members must be represented.
...Your statements on your previous post saying that these project sites should not be opened to the majority is contrary to the wishes of the majority for the following reasons...
.................If a site is owned by the county or by the state and supported by public funds than access should be made available to the majority. It is, of course, understandable that entry criteria be established requiring "attainable" training levels. For example, if it is a deeper cave then mixed gas certification in conjunction to Full Cave certification is required or if it is more of a "sidemount" type system then sidemount specialty certification is required. If you state that it is an ongoing research or science project then perhaps a "science or research" cave diver certification can be developed (like the CDS specialty currently awaiting approval). Of course..it would mean EVERY participant must have at least that rating. To simply imply that it would be unsafe to allow a more public access is insulting and demeaning to the majority of membership as it implies that approx. 1000 members are not as skilled as the minority. That is the exact same argument that the 100 or so members of the WKPP use and that is exactly my point.
..................Nothing says that some sights would not benefit, also, from establishing a "guide" system again with established criteria. Most members do not have an issue with that as long as an old boy system and not established criteria is used in establishing the guides.
..................By the way, Please,please don't insult the intelligence of the CDS membership and the NACD membership and the cave diving community by trying to say, with a straight face, that all the dives done in these special access sites and projects is done for science. That is simply not the truth. Quite often these sites become the "private exploration" of a limited group. Again if publicly owned property is involved a private group can not have the luxury of private control.
...Finally, please feel free to contact me personally for more specific information. Thanks again for your input.

Ralph DiPanfilo

[Genesis]

What's ignorant about believing that a 501c(3)s money, collected from membership dues, should be spent solely to benefit the entire membership?

If that upsets people, well, perhaps they need to be upset.

I'd argue that before an organization should be expending resources on projects that provide diving opportunity for a dozen people they should insure that key public outreach matters - like their web page - are working at 100% and that the content therein is both relavent and current.

When you see an "Updated 14 August 2001" banner on a page, large numbers of links are broken (including the membership "join up" page!), there are no 2004 BOD meeting minutes posted, and its early in 2005.....

I'd further argue that the next priority would be projects that benefits access rights for all members, with that being a specific requirement to obtain project status - and resources of the section.

And finally, if the entire gamut of those projects has been run, and there are funds left, then - and only then - can other activities be entertained with member's money.

To consider a BOD candidate's views as "spiteful" because they align with the interests of all those who do - or would - join is, I believe, a major problem.

Wanna know why I'm not a member (yet)? Now you do. Where would my money (assuming I could figure out how to join and where to send it!) be spent? It appears that at present it would not go to things I believe it should.....

I'm locking this topic. It is bordering on, maybe violating our rules #4 & #6.

Even though I am interested in this matter and all nominees are registered on this forum, and three are even moderators, it doesn't belong here.

Now the following statement is my personal opinion and I can see some holes in it, but the NSS CDS has a 'podium' for this kind of thing... (their own forum). If the nominees want to interact with their constituents, seems to me it would most appropriate to do it there.