TecRec DSAT Cave Diver

[CaveBuddy95]

Hi all,
I was browsing around and found the Tec blog from PADI. They are finally making a move towards the tec arena. But the quote below is of most interest and would like to hear your thoughts on it.


TecRec Cave Diver
Posted in Cave, Training on August 26, 2009 by TekScep

You can now teach cave diving under the TecRec umbrella through the TecRec Distinctive Specialties process. If you’re a qualified cave diving instructor, you may submit a cave diver course outline for consideration and approval by your PADI Office. Contact a DSAT TDD Technical Consultant for more information about qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties.

It was taken from TecRecBlog (http://tecrec.wordpress.com/page/2/)



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[Jay]

The Tec stuff has been around for years. I think full Trimix was available in 2004. (DSAT/TEC)
Full cave is new, cavern is as old as any cave agency.

[FW]

.... I think full Trimix was available in 2004....
More like 1991.

[Jay]

More like 1991.


Not by PADI/DSAT. I edited my post to be clearer.

Yeah, I remember having discussions with Billy Deans and Gary Gentile about getting mix certified after telling them about some of the air dives we were doing about 90 or 91.
Gary was my hero back then. I still have one of my original Aladin Pro's I was using on the stupid deep air dives I was making. :oops: :smt045

[CaveBuddy95]

:smt102
2 moderators (and FW..??)and they both take the thread out of topic!!
Stick a fork in me!


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[argyris]

Hi all,
If you’re a qualified cave diving instructor, you may submit a cave diver course outline for consideration and approval by your PADI Office. Contact a DSAT TDD Technical Consultant for more information about qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties.


1. What are the "qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties"?

2. If someone is already a cave diver instructor whats the benefit for doing this?

[CaveBuddy95]

1. What are the "qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties"?

2. If someone is already a cave diver instructor whats the benefit for doing this?

Hi buddy,
see how you re-edited my post and make it looks like that I said :

"If you’re a qualified cave diving instructor, you may submit a cave diver course outline for consideration and approval by your PADI Office. Contact a DSAT TDD Technical Consultant for more information about qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties."

It is a quote, from the article in TecRec blog!
As far as I would like to get some guys job at DSAT, I did not write that.
I would say though, that the prerequisites are:(or could be)

1 - TecDeep + Cavern + Nitrox with +or- 50 dives, after its up to the certifying instructor to do his/her course accordingly.
2- Benefit is to offer a course in the continuity (spell??) of the client background. For a PADI divshop point of view its always better to keep the certifications flowing.
Its business! But training agencies are also companies!


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[Webmaster]

continuity (spell??) of the client background

I believe the benefit is that PADI gets some money out of it.

[TraceMalin]

Going back to the 1970's, PADI once had a short-lived cave program. Jim Wyatt was one of the instructors in that program.

In the past, some agencies, such as PDIC, would issue a cave certification through a certified cave instructor who was also a PDIC instructor if the student wanted. The draw for the student on these C-cards was that the diver would then have a photo C-card as well. PDIC had been putting photos on cards when most agencies were not.

What PADI is doing is nothing new. The benefit for the instructor is that it might increase his or her career within the PADI and its DSAT community if that were desirable.

Like others posted, it benefits PADI more than anything.

However, PADI's interest in technical diving may benefit technical divers in one way. With the majority of dive centers in resort areas being PADI, the less afraid these dive centers become of the technical and cave diving communities, the less hassle we'll get when we want to lug doubles on boats or do certain dives. Once that begins to happen, it might benefit SDI/TDI/ERDI. Shops will realize that they don't have to go with PADI and that the divers they are getting on charters with other certs have skill. The moment they begin to question PADI's dominance, SDI/TDI, will be there to pounce and show them how much easier their lives will be with SDI/TDI rather than PADI.

If that happens, that might benefit all of us because we could really have some fun on dive trips. Rather than just AL80's and a recreational mentality, we might have greater access to more toys, tanks, and tools.

[argyris]

Hi buddy,
see how you re-edited my post and make it looks like that I said :

"If you’re a qualified cave diving instructor, you may submit a cave diver course outline for consideration and approval by your PADI Office. Contact a DSAT TDD Technical Consultant for more information about qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties."

It is a quote, from the article in TecRec blog!
As far as I would like to get some guys job at DSAT, I did not write that.
I would say though, that the prerequisites are:(or could be)

1 - TecDeep + Cavern + Nitrox with +or- 50 dives, after its up to the certifying instructor to do his/her course accordingly.
2- Benefit is to offer a course in the continuity (spell??) of the client background. For a PADI divshop point of view its always better to keep the certifications flowing.
Its business! But training agencies are also companies!


:arrowgreen

Oopps!! Sorry Jason I did not mean to put words in you mouth. I just want to know what are the standards.

I still do not get the real benefit for the instructor. There is always tthe posibillity of dual configuration.

"Cave diving is deceptively simple", do not forget that.

[Slüdge]

"Cave diving is deceptively simple", do not forget that.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Cave diving is NOT simple. Why do you think people die every year doing it?

[BobK]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Cave diving is NOT simple. Why do you think people die every year doing it?

At first glance, cave diving is very simple. Put on a tank, grab a light, and go into the cave. What's the big deal ?

If you want to actually come back out of the cave under your own power, that is much more difficult.

What we have is a sport that really does look simple on the surface. After all, what's the big deal about following a line with a flashlight ? And I think that's why many people died doing it. They didn't get, or ignored, the many details of cave diving that are needed to return the diver safely to the surface.

Lots of things look simple at first. For instance, I'm sure many people think that racing a car is pretty simple. Just press the gas pedal and steer. I wonder how many would end up piled into turn one.

I think part of our obligation as cave divers is to dispel the idea that what we do is no big deal. It isn't mystical, doesn't require great intellect, or huge amounts of strength, but it does require some physical skills, specific knowledge, and attention to detail.

[argyris]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Cave diving is NOT simple. Why do you think people die every year doing it?

Hey sludge:
My comment was ironic. I do not want the commercialization of cave diving. And I will be very skeptical for someone presenting me such a card.

My personal opinion is that if PADI instructors want to earn more money, there are other more suitable resort opportunities. Cave diving is not a tecreational field of adventure.

[CaveBuddy95]

Hi guys,
I don't want to sound too weird but cave diving is a sort of recreational tec or tecreational activity. (thanks Argyris)
Before you jump up my throat, let me explain why I think that.
It comes from caving and cavers having to pass sumps decided that after some free diving attempt (???) to use scuba diving. In the field of exploration the guys and guals doing this activity were called cavers.
Today, most of the divers in the caves are taking a tour so to speak. Of course the training is preferable, the activity being 'so deceptively simple' (that means Not simple for the record!) more and more agencies are poping out of the ground to promote the sport. Of course, it is also to make a living therefore to make some $$. Would it be called, PDIC, PADI, IANTD or else.
And if you take the time to look closely the CEOs of this training agencies, for some are active explorers and get the founding through the courses they give. So as we say in France, 'lets not piss in the soup!' That mean...well, I'm sure you understand.
There are surely some CDF members still actively exploring, trying to find some new leads, and thats great. Guess what, a lot of them are now cave instructors and teach to be able to do what they love doing: exploring!
Do I need to go further???

So, to get back to my main post, DSAT is now backing their Instructor, already cave instructors to write a course outline and submit it to revision by the Training board. Once approuved, it becomes a Distinctive specialy that has the PADI certification card and t-shirt that goes with it.
And Sludge, don't tell me that you didn't keep some of your t-shirts in the early days of your cave career??


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[RN]

Actually, what I was told by a local CD is the instructors don't have to write their own outline. All they have to do is submit the outline from the agency they teach cave through and that will suffice for the distinctive specialty. Although, that does sound like a copyright violation...

[jj1987]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Cave diving is NOT simple. Why do you think people die every year doing it?
Perhaps trying to over complicate it with new gear/toys that aren't needed? Breaking some very simple rules? Complacency because it becomes stupid simple after a few times? Becoming overconfident and thinking a redundant brain is of no use?

Frankly I don't see cave diving as much more difficult than a OW dive with a few more rules attached to it. I can't think of many things in life that can be broken down into 5 basic rules....If it's not middle school algebra (sac rates, rock bottom, deco gas requirements, 1/3rds, dissimilar volumes, etc), we use vplanner or decoplanner to do the leg work. I'm not saying that you don't have to practice simple things, any one of us who played basketball has shot more practice free throws than we want to even think about, but I really don't see cave diving as an extremely complicated activity.

I think the simplicity is what kills people. It's far too easy to take things lightly, and looking back on recent deaths, I think there's support for my logic.

[CaveBuddy95]

Hi RN.
this my first post of this thread, have a look and tell me what u think!


Hi all,
I was browsing around and found the Tec blog from PADI.

TecRec Cave Diver
Posted in Cave, Training on August 26, 2009 by TekScep

You can now teach cave diving under the TecRec umbrella through the TecRec Distinctive Specialties process. If you’re a qualified cave diving instructor, you may submit a cave diver course outline for consideration and approval by your PADI Office. Contact a DSAT TDD Technical Consultant for more information about qualifications and the minimum requirements for TecRec Cave Diver Distinctive Specialties.

It was taken from TecRecBlog (http://tecrec.wordpress.com/page/2/)



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Follow the link :?


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[Mart]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Cave diving is NOT simple. Why do you think people die every year doing it?

Cave diving IS simple. Even dying in a cave is simple.

[RN]

Hi RN.
this my first post of this thread, have a look and tell me what u think!




Follow the link :?


:arrowgreen

What's your point?!?

[CaveBuddy95]

What's your point?!?

Simply that on DSAT blog it says that the instructor who wants to teach/certify in Cave has to write his own course outlines and submit them to PADI. If the outline come from CDS, NACD or IANTD that's infringement and I'm sure the guys at PADI will notice!
I think this blog belongs to PADI/DSAT and is administered by Mark Caney. So if the info is available there, must be right.
Thats my point.


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[battles2a5]

It doesn't sound like they have any standards. They appear to be looking for instructors to send in the course outline for approval (and so they can develop their own). Seems silly to me. What incentive would an instructor have to write cards for PADI when they do not provide course materials, standards, or any sort of legal framework to protect an instructor that is teaching within those standards?

[Me]

I may be incorrect with my information, but a few years back my buddy was considering going the TDI Instructor route. He backed off because the shop we teach for had just become a PADI 5 Star. Being a PADI 5 Star shop they are not allowed to sanction any other courses or instructors. If PADI goes Cave, then my possibly misguided observation would be he could now go the TDI Instructor route, double it with PADI and grant both cards? This would open up many 5 Star shops to additional course offerings while using existing instructors who may not have wanted to jump through the tec/rec dsat hoops........

[RN]

Simply that on DSAT blog it says that the instructor who wants to teach/certify in Cave has to write his own course outlines and submit them to PADI. If the outline come from CDS, NACD or IANTD that's infringement and I'm sure the guys at PADI will notice!
I think this blog belongs to PADI/DSAT and is administered by Mark Caney. So if the info is available there, must be right.
Thats my point.


:arrowgreen

I understand that. Re-read my original post. I was merely stating was I was told by a PADI CD who is pretty involved in this process, but yet you seem to be attacking me like it's my opinion!



I may be incorrect with my information, but a few years back my buddy was considering going the TDI Instructor route. He backed off because the shop we teach for had just become a PADI 5 Star. Being a PADI 5 Star shop they are not allowed to sanction any other courses or instructors. If PADI goes Cave, then my possibly misguided observation would be he could now go the TDI Instructor route, double it with PADI and grant both cards? This would open up many 5 Star shops to additional course offerings while using existing instructors who may not have wanted to jump through the tec/rec dsat hoops........

A PADI 5 star facility cannot offer courses from other agencies if PADI or DSAT offers the same course. Your buddy should have continued the TDI route. PADI does not offer anything equivalent to Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures or any of the overhead courses. It sounds like the shop owner just didn't want your buddy teaching through TDI.

[CaveBuddy95]

I understand that. Re-read my original post. I was merely stating was I was told by a PADI CD who is pretty involved in this process, but yet you seem to be attacking me like it's my opinion!

:smt102 sorry, didn't ment to 'attack' you RN!

As for the PADI shops not allowed to teach other agencies, its true when they already teach the course in question.
And if the Training board aprouves the outlines, then it falls under PADI standards. When you write an outline, you have to include the standards you see for the course.


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[WEPIV]

I know it's the "in" thing to do to bash PADI and apparently too their DSAT program but as we have read here many times -- it's usually more about the instructor than the agency.
Years ago I asked about the various agencies and was told that the LA County program was first followed shortly after by the YMCA, (which we all know now is basically no longer in the scuba business).
Then NAUI came about followed by PADI -- which if I understood it right was founded by two guys who wanted to make a diving agency more business like. Kind of like NAUI being a .org while PADI is a .com, to use those terms.
Early on I had a number of PADI classes and learned a lot from my instructors. Later, after getting into technical diving, I decided to go with a combination of DSAT and TDI for Tec Rec deep air and advanced trimix -- and at that time the DSAT trimix book was being used by agencies other than DSAT as it was that thorough. (Also, it required more dives, which I also thought was good.)
Now, having said all of that, I sat in on my son's NAUI open water class (and later advanced open water class) and was very impressed with the amount of knowledge and information they pass on to their students. They definitely covered more things than my PADI open water class did.
And as someone mentioned before, PADI had a cave course 30 some years ago. I believe Jim Wyatt still has his instructor's card for that. So, they've been around for a bit.
Bottom line is that it seems that PADI is an easy mark to poke fun at sometimes for whatever reason but I know that I have learned from their instructors and courses.

[MDS]

I do not want the commercialization of cave diving. And I will be very skeptical for someone presenting me such a card.

My personal opinion is that if PADI instructors want to earn more money, there are other more suitable resort opportunities. Cave diving is not a tecreational field of adventure.

:D :cool:

[Meister481]

I understand that. Re-read my original post. I was merely stating was I was told by a PADI CD who is pretty involved in this process, but yet you seem to be attacking me like it's my opinion!




A PADI 5 star facility cannot offer courses from other agencies if PADI or DSAT offers the same course. Your buddy should have continued the TDI route. PADI does not offer anything equivalent to Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures or any of the overhead courses. It sounds like the shop owner just didn't want your buddy teaching through TDI.

As of Jan 1st they will be teaching a revised TecRec program that teaches in similar advancement fashion as Adv. Nitrox/Deco/Ext. Range. It's called Tec40/Tec45/Tec50. If you taught the class with another organization before PADI had the availability I think they give you a pass. Kind of a don't ask don't tell deal. PADI tried that with their nitrox program at the facility I work at and nothing ever came of it.

[RN]

However, the Tec programs don't exactly match up to any of the tech courses out there. I don't think PADI has addressed it yet. They're probably waiting to see how things pan out with the new Tec series courses before they do that.