What happens when.....

[tflaris]

What happens when you hear of someone dying in a cave:

1. Do you analyze the cause of the incident?

a. Does the cause of the accident give you validation that it will not happen to you?

b. If the cause of the accident correlates to actions you perform on a regular basis on your average dive does it:
-challenge you to change your ways?
-reinforce that your a smarter, better, etc diver than the average guy and this would never happen to you?
-has no affect?
-rationale that your current level of safety are sufficient to avoid this from happening to you?

c. Are you comfortable in taking someone else's speculation as the cause of the accident?

d. Does not knowing what caused an accident cause you unrest or discomfort in your own diving?

e. Is this fear real or imagined. In other words are you compromising your safety through your diving actions or is it the fear of the unknown.

Just curious not only on how we start and end but what develops in the middle.

Tony Flaris
904-210-4550

[rox@ucf11]

What happens when you hear of someone dying in a cave:

1. Do you analyze the cause of the incident? Yes.


a. Does the cause of the accident give you validation that it will not happen to you? sometimes but not necessarily, more to the point it gives me an idea of what not to do to, or what to do, to stay alive.

b. If the cause of the accident correlates to actions you perform on a regular basis on your average dive does it:
-challenge you to change your ways?
-reinforce that your a smarter, better, etc diver than the average guy and this would never happen to you?
-has no affect?
-rationale that your current level of safety are sufficient to avoid this from happening to you? Challenges me to change my ways.


c. Are you comfortable in taking someone else's speculation as the cause of the accident? Not necessarily, but speculation does provoke thought so its never a bad thing.


d. Does not knowing what caused an accident cause you unrest or discomfort in your own diving? No not necessarily, though it does make me wonder of course.

e. Is this fear real or imagined. In other words are you compromising your safety through your diving actions or is it the fear of the unknown. no comment as I feel I do not completely understand the question.

Just curious not only on how we start and end but what develops in the middle.

Tony Flaris
904-210-4550
Ryan Fahey

[aainslie]

We all react differently in these situations.

I just couldn't get Mark Fyvie's death out of my head. I went to town on that one. I redid the passages he did, I taught myself how to make my rebreather removable, and I exactly replicated his dive by dropping my rebreather at the end of the gold line and swimming OC another 800 ft.

I learned a lot from all of that. An incredible amount. It has massively changed how I cave dive.

But of course, if I posted what I'd learned, Ken, FW and Kelly would be reminding me how irresponsible the scientific process is on our sport, and how imprtant it is not to mess with 30 year old rules.

Good grief.

[sea2summit]

What happens when you hear of someone dying in a cave:

1. Do you analyze the cause of the incident? Noob as they get so I'm big into analyzing everything I can and seeing all the other folks out there throw ideas around

a. Does the cause of the accident give you validation that it will not happen to you? Only if I don't do whatever it was, it brings up a lot of stuff to consider or reenforces why I/we do some things.

b. If the cause of the accident correlates to actions you perform on a regular basis on your average dive does it:
-challenge you to change your ways?Yes
-reinforce that your a smarter, better, etc diver than the average guy and this would never happen to you?
-has no affect?
-rationale that your current level of safety are sufficient to avoid this from happening to you?Maybe but I also learn from others mistakes and use that in my planning, perhaps even do a rehearsal based on the failure so I don't recreate the mistake in my dive

c. Are you comfortable in taking someone else's speculation as the cause of the accident?Yep, everyone has a lot of good ideas and theories but only one person really knows so I like the shear number of possibilities brought up where nearly every one can be learned from

d. Does not knowing what caused an accident cause you unrest or discomfort in your own diving? If it does I won't do that/type of diving or I'll quit, like the sign says nothing in there is worth dying for

e. Is this fear real or imagined. In other words are you compromising your safety through your diving actions or is it the fear of the unknown. The first time I had any fear in a cave was dropping a stage bottle knowing if somehow I seperated from my buddy and missed my bottle in a silt out I wouldn't make it out, I think that was real fear. Other incidents I don't fear I think they are learning points, especially if people make it through and can give all the details



Josh

[Ken Hill]

We all react differently in these situations.

I taught myself how to make my rebreather removable, and I exactly replicated his dive by dropping my rebreather at the end of the gold line and swimming OC another 800 ft.

I learned a lot from all of that.
Good grief.

You taught yourself! What if he went over Niagara Falls in a barrel ? "Good grief" is about right! /Ken

[aainslie]

You taught yourself! What if he went over Niagara Falls in a barrel ? "Good grief" is about right! /Ken

Yep Ken, just like so many others taught themselves. I taught myself... by reading every single article written on the topic, watching videos, talking to people, looking at others' configurations, taking my unit to the pool for several sessions followed by several sessions at the entrance to Jackson Blue....

I taught myself. And now I have a rebreather that can be dumped in an emergency, and it makes me a safer diver. And I did NOT learn it on my own - i learned it through discussion with Corey and Joel, and by watching Brett's videos, and reading Jill's websites, and others who aren't sticking with 30 year old technologies, but instead are moving this sport forward.

If he went over Niagara in a barrel, something tells me I wouldn't have replicated that accident...

[Meister481]

Yep Ken, just like so many others taught themselves. I taught myself... by reading every single article written on the topic, watching videos, talking to people, looking at others' configurations, taking my unit to the pool for several sessions followed by several sessions at the entrance to Jackson Blue....

I taught myself. And now I have a rebreather that can be dumped in an emergency, and it makes me a safer diver. And I did NOT learn it on my own - i learned it through discussion with Corey and Joel, and by watching Brett's videos, and reading Jill's websites, and others who aren't sticking with 30 year old technologies, but instead are moving this sport forward.

If he went over Niagara in a barrel, something tells me I wouldn't have replicated that accident...

I am one to follow the big 5. With that being said, innovation can happen in this sport. Sheck taught himself and proposed it to others the same way because there was nobody else to do it. Andrew seems to follow along those lines as well. He applies his gas rules to allow more flexibility with his bottom time. I wouldn't follow that example myself, but it does have an impact on the sport if the diver that uses the rules has done it for how long now and been successful.

I do enjoy reading his posts with a cautious eye and try to think of scenarios that it would be fatal or get someone hurt. I consider it part of my development to prove that accepted rules apply in every scenario. His thinking and gas plan development not only augments the accepted rules, but also proves that sometimes the good old 1/3 penetration is dangerous.

I've never met him and only shared a cave with him once (recognized the deco bottle) but I do have a deep respect for someone who takes the time to lay out their survival and is willing to back it up with a record of successful dives. I'm only 3 years in to my cave diving career, so I'm in no way saying I'm a pro, I'm just an admirer of those who lead the charge with intellect and careful consideration.

To those who think they are ready to pick up that torch and do as he does: You are taking your life in your hands, and endangering those who might have to drag you out of that cold dark tomb. Be sure you are prepared for that and willing to die for a concept you may not fully understand.

[Ken Hill]

If he went over Niagara in a barrel, something tells me I wouldn't have replicated that accident...

So let’s recap highlights of what I’ve heard from you.

You monkey with your rebreather , but that’s is OK. Forrest (who built a twin engine airplane that flew over my house) builds a rebreather but that’s not OK.

You state you “recreated” the Fyvie accident . Yet others engaged in doing accident analysis are unreliable because they deal with too many hypothesis?

You state 2/3 exit reserve gas in Ginnie (I assume you mean Devils) is stupid. Yet, 09-04-09 indicates maybe not.

You say you never use guidelines unless way back in Ginnie (again Devils?) - ditto-

You say 1/6ths are to liberal for siphons. I can agree !

You say you won't go over the falls in a barrel. Neither would I but someone just may think they could!

So perhaps “your rules” need to be taken with a grain of salt. You may have learned some great things but share them in emails to a known audience or give a talk at a workshop. This has been beaten to death in a public forum. I urge you to be responsible and not the provocateur. /Ken

[Gary]

I seek out and read old incident reports. I intensely analyze every new accident. I read the different theories and seek to understand how each possibility can teach something even if that isn't what happened. I now have two friends who have died cave diving. One the accident investigation is still ongoing and the facts are still hidden from myself and the public.

I also seek out information from non-fatal accidents. I download DAN's annual Diving Report and take the PDE population numbers and cross reference them to the actual world diving accidents to try and extrapolate comparative risks for different dive activities, certification levels, equipment, mixes, etc. I read IRAP reports and diver experience stories of all types.

I think the 5 rules of accident analysis are just scratching the surface of the actual causes - especially in regards to trained cave divers who have died. The "5 rules" represent blank categories wiped clean of specifics in order to render the information useful to non-cave divers and those just learning the basics.

Cave diving is a demanding sport. One of the most rigid and serious activities known in terms of action and consequence. In many ways it is similar to the situation of an astronaut on the moon: totally dependent on life support equipment and cut off from aid from any outside source. The judgment of the diver in every action is key to his survival. To learn cave diving we have a limited number of sources: experience, training from courses, instructors, mentors, articles, discussions on the internet and the experiences of others.

Most differences on equipment, configuration, and training among trained cave divers comes down to inconsequential differences like where to wear your z-knife, run a hose, which regulator to use, which training organization is "right" on what subject. Even differences like whether manifolds or sidemount is better has seldom, if ever, made a difference in an actual life or death situation.

But every accident has.

Instead of seeking to learn from the details of these accidents - the actual causes and lessons - most discussions do their best to reduce these unique reports back to the bland re-hashed equation that was established decades ago to reinforce a lesson we already learned at the cavern level.


Instead of starting from the premise that each trained cave diver who died had the knowledge of the 5 rules of cave diving and for the most part followed the rules and died anyway. That possibly they died for reasons at least partly unrelated to a violation of those rules. And instead of examining the accident for possible lessons we don't yet know and can still learn from, we hide the facts, scrub the details and try to force the accident to fit the established model to ensure nothing new is learned and no one's view of the world is upset. :?


It is my goal to learn as much as I can from each accident and apply those lessons to improve the safety and enjoyment of my own dives.



Are you comfortable in taking someone else's speculation as the cause of the accident?

Someone else's speculations as the cause of the accident provides as good a learning opportunity as my own - as long as they are realistic possibilities. Whether or not they are the actual cause or even apply to the accident discussion at hand.



Does not knowing what caused an accident cause you unrest or discomfort in your own diving?

Not really. If someone dies driving down the road and there is no ready explanation I don't dwell on it. When it is a friend or acquaintance it is more compelling to know but not because it disturbs my diving.

There are dangers in all things. I accept that cave diving is a dangerous activity but in a lot of ways the dangers are something far more under my control than the dangers one faces out in the world in general.

One way or another we will all die. If I choose to spend my whole life sitting in front of the TV I'd die watching TV. If I was to spend 24 hours of every day cave diving my death would happen cave diving. I'd rather spend my life out having fun. (If it happened watching TV no one would say "watching TV killed him", or "if only he hadn't been watching TV solo it wouldn't have happened".)

If I do die in a cave I'd like to leave my body in a convenient place where it endangers no one and doesn't damage the cave. I'd hope the lesson to be learned from my death was as an example of how to enjoy one's life rather than that caves are dangerous, and used as an excuse to close access, or to justify some existing rule no one learns anything from. :smt051

[skip]

You taught yourself! What if he went over Niagara Falls in a barrel ? "Good grief" is about right! /Ken

I taught myself to cave dive. Strapped a couple of al 80's together (independent doubles), backmounted them on a jacket BC. Began exploring TN caves with 5-10 feet of viz and no flow. I thought gee if I go X psi in, I should have X psi to get out and X psi in reserve just in case. I thought kite string on a stick was a good idea too. There was no cave divers forum, I did know you were supposed to get training, but I had no idea where or how, had never heard of cave country florida. I have more cave dives before cavern, then since!

After several years I knew more and decided I'd check into getting some training and was totally surprised at how I'd followed the "rules" without every being told what they were! In fact, I can't see how I possibly survived! And today, "fully trained," I'm still teaching myself how to cave dive. I sincerely hope that all fully trained cave divers are actively engaged in training themselves beyond the classes. I've often heard (and tell students) that open water is a certificate to learn, a learner's permit. Full cave diver is also a permit to learn on your own. To continue training yourself.

-skip

[aainslie]

So let’s recap highlights of what I’ve heard from you.

You monkey with your rebreather , but that’s is OK. Forrest (who built a twin engine airplane that flew over my house) builds a rebreather but that’s not OK.

You state you “recreated” the Fyvie accident . Yet others engaged in doing accident analysis are unreliable because they deal with too many hypothesis?

You state 2/3 exit reserve gas in Ginnie (I assume you mean Devils) is stupid. Yet, 09-04-09 indicates maybe not.

You say you never use guidelines unless way back in Ginnie (again Devils?) - ditto-

You say 1/6ths are to liberal for siphons. I can agree !

You say you won't go over the falls in a barrel. Neither would I but someone just may think they could!

So perhaps “your rules” need to be taken with a grain of salt. You may have learned some great things but share them in emails to a known audience or give a talk at a workshop. This has been beaten to death in a public forum. I urge you to be responsible and not the provocateur. /Ken

On 1) - that's right. I'm consistent, FW is inconsistent. I monkey with stuff, and suggest that others do too.

On 2) Hmmm... I didn't just say "diving beyond training" and move on. And actually I don't really care how someone died. i care about learning from that death. They're different. Saying "He broke Rule 2. let's move on" is counterproductive IMHO. I have NEVER stated that "others engaged in doing accident analysis are unreliable because they deal with too many hypothesis" (that's hypotheses btw).

On 3) maybe not, maybe yes. Remember, some have said that Bruce "clearly" died because he broke rule 2. I'm glad we're discussing it.

On 4) Well, make up your mind. Which rule was the issue?

On 5) OK... so what IS the right number? I can give you one. How about you? Have you EVER sat down and tried to work out the RIGHT number? I'll bet the answer is "no" - because I guarantee you, I plan these dives more carefully than most. By a long way. My siphon dive (which turned out to be a non-issue), I probably put 50 hours into planning the gas issue alone.

On your last point - this is probably my most contentious point. I don't believe in "rules". Well, let me qualify. I think the 5 rules are a good starting point - but as ssikp (sp?) pointed out elsewhere, Sheck meant these as guidelines, not rules. that's how I view them.

[skip]

i did call them guidelines, but upon a rereading Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival, I see that sheck exley called them the "Ten Recommendations for Safe Cave Diving." There are ten; the first five are now rules, the other five are too in a different way.

-ssikp :roll:

[aainslie]

i did call them guidelines, but upon a rereading Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival, I see that sheck exley called them the "Ten Recommendations for Safe Cave Diving." There are ten; the first five are now rules, the other five are too in a different way.

-ssikp :roll:

Thanks for clarifying, skip :)

[Pelagic]

The thing that really gets me about fatalities is that we all look at them (and I do include myself in this bigtime), we rationalise them and work out where the poor guy went wrong, sure in the knowledge that the same thing could never happen to us, that we would never commit the same school boy error.

And yet he did exactly the same thing with all the fatalities he read about...

[LCF]

1. Do you analyze the cause of the incident? Absolutely. Every accident leaves me desperately looking for all the information that ever becomes available. Accidents like Bruce's terrify me, because there's so much that isn't known.

a. Does the cause of the accident give you validation that it will not happen to you? To the contrary. Even accidents where people did things I'm sure I would never do (like the Wayne's World tragedy) make me worry hard about what the path is that leads people who one would assume are normally rational, to do things that seem obviously stupid. They didn't get up in the morning and say, "Let's go kill ourselves in a cave." So how did they get there, and how do I avoid following them?

b. If the cause of the accident correlates to actions you perform on a regular basis on your average dive does it:
-challenge you to change your ways?
-reinforce that your a smarter, better, etc diver than the average guy and this would never happen to you?
-has no affect?
-rationale that your current level of safety are sufficient to avoid this from happening to you? I haven't yet seen a report of a non-medical fatal accident where somebody didn't do something I won't do (except the oxtox at 1.4). But I worry a lot about whether I might someday do those things.

c. Are you comfortable in taking someone else's speculation as the cause of the accident? I think people's speculations lead to very productive discussions of what reasonable practices are. It's nice if we eventually KNOW what happened, but even the hypotheticals are valuable.

d. Does not knowing what caused an accident cause you unrest or discomfort in your own diving? Yes. This last one in particular. I don't understand what happened, so I don't really know what the most important lesson to be learned from the fatality is. I worry a lot about what it is that I don't know I don't know.

e. Is this fear real or imagined. In other words are you compromising your safety through your diving actions or is it the fear of the unknown. I don't know if it's real or imagined, but if staying a little frightened keeps me conservative and careful, it's more of a positive than a negative force. Because of where I live, and my age, I will probably never accumulate enough time in caves to feel as though I should be analyzing which rules I can safely break and where and when, so staying scared and respectful is a good thing.