High tech survey equip?

[DaveP]

What type of high tech survey equipment has been used in the past?
I don't count a compass and knotted line as high tech. :?
I know sonar has been used, as well as equipment that will track the diver from walking above the cave etc....don't know what that is called (used at Peacock and other places).

The Wakulla 2 project used some type of "digital mapper" ?

Thanks for the info,
Dave

[FW]

That was a sidescan sonar, mounted on a scooter. Very high tech for it's day. Still not bad today either.

The little hand held sonars are nice, but limited in distance, and accuracy. The help a lot in low visibility.

[Squirrel Girl]

That was a sidescan sonar, mounted on a scooter. Very high tech for it's day. Still not bad today either.

It was not sidescan.

http://www.usdct.org/wakulla2-technology.php

[sdenney]

Bill Stone's 3D Mapper was a multi-dimensional sonar array. There is some work being done with submersible LiDAR (Light Detection and Ranging), which is essentially the same as sonar, but instead of sound it uses light. The advantage with LiDAR is an increase in accuracy and precision; the downside is that accuracy and precision drop with increased particulate matter in the water column (which doesn't affect sonar).

[DaveP]

Thats pretty much what I was thinking, unless there is something newer out there?

Thanks,
Dave

[FW]

Thats pretty much what I was thinking, unless there is something newer out there?

Thanks,
Dave
There is something in between knotted line, and sonar. Most of the good surveys today use fiberglass tape to measure distances, both along the line, and wall to wall. It is slower, but more accurate.

[sdenney]

A combination of GPS, radiolocation (magnetic induction), and electronic gyros could be employed. The drift of the gyro would negate long distances. Bill Stone was able to get a hold of a military grade gyro (from what I hear it was stripped out of a Cruise missile) which has very little drift, but I don't think you'll be able to get the military to do the same for anyone else (esp. post-9/11).

[Arnold Mesiser]

I filled some time in between drawings


some assorted current survey techniques and devices both above and below water


http://csg.bcra.org.uk/


http://bcra.org.uk/creg/jnl/index.html


http://melzer.ch/html/aurigaimport.html

http://www.speleo.qc.ca/Auriga/


http://melzer.ch/html/creg_journal.html



http://www.cave-exploration.com/papers.htm digital underwater compass

http://radiolocation.tripod.com/


http://www.chaos.org.uk/survex/cp/


http://www.cancaver.ca/bccr/radio.htm


http://www.cc.utah.edu/~nahaj/cave/survey/index.html



http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/Software/


http://survex.com/

http://www.chaos.org.uk/survex/cp/CP23/cp23.htm


http://www.cartotalk.com/lofiversion/index.php?t1250.html


http://www.mountaincartography.org/.../4_Beijing_Heller_Neumann.pdf


http://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/9/2/1108/pdf


http://incavedigitalsurvey.com/board/YaBB.pl?num=1205624025


http://www.incavedigitalsurvey.com/


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cavescomcavesurveying/



http://www.cavediggers.com/SurveySidebySideSummary.pdf


http://www.cavediggers.com/caving.html#Space


http://viy.com.ua/download/pub/60_fpl.pdf


http://www.rdinstruments.com/.../Development_of_Multi-AUV_SLAM_UofM.pdf


http://www.rebreatherpro.com/2008/06/expedition-files-whats-that-thing.html



http://www-geo.phys.ualberta.ca/~unsworth/UA-classes/.../223E4-2009.pdf


http://www.x-cd.com/sageep07CD/prof249.html


http://caveandkarst.wku.edu/microgravity.htm


http://www.ctbto.org/.../OSI-34B%20(Australia)%20-%20Matthew_Purss%20etal


http://www.maxweltongeosolutions.com/caseStudies/caseStudy_maxwelton.html


http://doi.ieeecomputersociety.org/10.1109/38.909011


http://www.usdct.org/past_expeditions.php


http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/depthx/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEPTHX

[Arnold Mesiser]

BTW in my area and the cave divers I know who actively survey-they use fiberglass tapes not knotted line

[FW]

A combination of GPS, radiolocation (magnetic induction), and electronic gyros could be employed. The drift of the gyro would negate long distances. Bill Stone was able to get a hold of a military grade gyro (from what I hear it was stripped out of a Cruise missile) which has very little drift, but I don't think you'll be able to get the military to do the same for anyone else (esp. post-9/11).
Hmmm, you gave me a great idea! There are now small solid state sensors that can take the place of gyros, with drift less, use less power, etc.

Here is one example, for airplanes. Look at the paragraph just below the picture (Advanced ADAHRS), and substitute "water" for "air"

http://dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html

[Squirrel Girl]

A combination of GPS, radiolocation (magnetic induction), and electronic gyros could be employed. The drift of the gyro would negate long distances. Bill Stone was able to get a hold of a military grade gyro (from what I hear it was stripped out of a Cruise missile) which has very little drift, but I don't think you'll be able to get the military to do the same for anyone else (esp. post-9/11).

It had a lot of drift. I spent 10 months of my life compensating for the drift. Trying to manually register the data from each data collection. But they make better IMS's. This isn't a problem for forever.

[Kelly Jessop]

It had a lot of drift. I spent 10 months of my life compensating for the drift. Trying to manually register the data from each data collection. But they make better IMS's. This isn't a problem for forever.

With fiberglass measuring tape the only time you have drift is when the tape gets caught in the current,but that is solved with a good hard tug :-)

[Squirrel Girl]

With fiberglass measuring tape the only time you have drift is when the tape gets caught in the current,but that is solved with a good hard tug :-)
Fair enough. But your survey techniques are subject to blunders. And you're more than welcome to go out and take the millions of data points with your fiberglass tape. I'd suggest getting a volume discount on gas.

[Kelly Jessop]

Fair enough. But your survey techniques are subject to blunders. And you're more than welcome to go out and take the millions of data points with your fiberglass tape. I'd suggest getting a volume discount on gas.


Millions?!

I guess that means if I am going to survey ie Wakulla then I would have to dive a lot,and take my friends.

[sskasser]

Millions?!

I guess that means if I am going to survey ie Wakulla then I would have to dive a lot,and take my friends.

I'll be your friend, Kelly!

[Squirrel Girl]

Millions?!

I guess that means if I am going to survey ie Wakulla then I would have to dive a lot,and take my friends.
I fully support your right to access to Wakulla, along with all your friends.

[rchrds]

I wonder of the original poster's intent- I think it is an interesting question- and Bill jumped over the moon with his scooter- that technology, between the software and the hardware required to make it happen just is not available to even the well funded cave mapping project- It did produce (after a bunch of software compilation, mostly thanks to barb, and a combination of other very evolved techniques like ULF radio location) a near perfect product- or as close as we can expect to see in the near future. But the rest of underwater survey is lagging behind in the technology department, in a big way.

Consider the evolution of dry cave survey, just in the last 2 years- we have gone from tape and compass and grade 5 survey, to single shot 3 in one instruments, where the tape can be (but usually isn't) completely removed by a DistoA3 and DistoX board, a Shetland Attack Pony (SAP) or other similar instruments that measure distance, azimuth, elevation all in one button push, capable of accuracy well within the limits of grade 5.

Taken one further, you can now have the above instruments download that data onto your palm device running Auriga, where it automatically plots your shots on a grid, so that you can draw in the details, in the cave! No paper at all! You get home, transfer the data into Walls or another program, and port it over to Illustrator, and all that is left is a lot of tracing, and some adding of text details. (OK, a bit of a simplification, perhaps.)

But look at the state of underwater survey- The vast majority of us are using the Suunto SK7, which on its own can barely manage +/- 3 degrees, and if you keep it on your arm and try to line it up with cave line, you are probably looking at more like +/-5-7 degrees. Some still just count the cave line knots, but if you are really surveying, you have a tape, which is task involving, and to do it efficiently takes two people. LRUDs are right out, as nobody in their right mind has time to actually measure LRUDs underwater except for at major intersections, but I cant name one person who does it as a matter of course. (Every station, which is what should be happening, along with cross-sections)

There have been some improvements- you can get an electronic compass on your X1- dont know about the accuracy yet, but I will let you know after I get one next month- but you are still stuck to a limit of accuracy based on your angle of error at the sighting location- not nearly as accurate as having a targeting laser. But there have been no improvements in ranging. I know that a hand held sonar ranger was used to survey Peacock some years ago, but I heard varying answers as to how useful it was- the general opinion I got was that it was not very useful, and was occasionally wildly inaccurate.

When are some of the cave diving EE students over at UF going to put together a small sonar (or lidar?) ranging device with integrated 3-axis magnetic field measurement that can change a one push command into a Distance, Azimuth, Elevation or Depth reading? (for under $500, cause that's what I would pay for it.)

Something to think about...

[Kelly Jessop]

- you can get an electronic compass on your X1- dont know about the accuracy yet, but I will let you know after I get one next month-...

I have been curious about the accuracy of these compasses.

[Arnold Mesiser]

Skilesonar!!! Get some of the movie props and bang-cave survey in one shot ;)

[Gene_Hobbs]

Kinkade posted his MatLab code for creating maps a long time ago as well (90's code).

http://research.gg.uwyo.edu/kincaid/3dcave.htm

[BobK]

When are some of the cave diving EE students over at UF going to put together a small sonar (or lidar?) ranging device with integrated 3-axis magnetic field measurement that can change a one push command into a Distance, Azimuth, Elevation or Depth reading? (for under $500, cause that's what I would pay for it.)

Something to think about...

Too complicated, having to push a button to make a measurement. The goal is to not push any buttons, just swim through the cave. We'll see how it turns out...