Madison Blue

[jpdiver]

Does anyone know when Madison will open for the season on weekdays?

Good question. The operators had an employee working there for a while and allowed you to cave dive if you came with at least (4) cave divers. Their employee has quit and right now we are in Purgatory! I imagine you could try coordinating (4) divers and calling the operators to see if they will unlock the gates. Also maybe we should all plead for an "iron ranger" honor system. :cry:

Does anyone know when Madison will open for the season on weekdays?

They will open any weekday if your group is large enough... but give them a call and let us know when they plan to man the gate. The management's link: http://www.aca1.com/ (scroll down to the bottom of the page)

[PacerFan577]

Just as a warning... we tried to dive at Madison Blue twice a month or two ago, both times on a weekend, when they are scheduled to be open from 10-6. We have vowed never to go back.

The first weekend, their employee simply decided not to show up, so we were totally out of luck and had wasted several hours of our day. When we called and complained, the manager said the employee had to go to Jacksonville and he didn't have anyone else to open the gate. We were standing outside the locked gate next to a caravan of 20 or so canoers at the time, all of whom were quite upset. Note that we had called several times during the week to confirm that they would be open and to let them know we'd be coming.

The second weekend, since Madison doesn't open until 10, we decided to do a dive at Ginnie first, then drive to Madison Blue -- their employee decided to leave at noon. He had locked the gates and was preparing to leave as we drove up. He told us we were out of luck because he had already arranged to have someone pick him up. We called the manager and complained again, and were told their (unwritten, uncommunicated) policy was that if nobody has shown up by noon, they close the park.

So make sure they know that you're coming and make absolutely sure someone will be there before you drive all the way, just to find out nobody is there. I would love to dive Madison but we're not going to attempt it again until something has dramatically changed.

[jammer]

thats why they make bolt cutters :wink:

[Genesis]

The solution to this may be found in agitation to get the concessionare's contract revoked by the state. If there were policies set as part of it being turned over to them, and they're not being met, then that's a possible outcome if enough noise is made.

The parks are public resources and we should not sit still for abuses similar to these.

[Kelly Jessop]

The solution to this may be found in agitation to get the concessionare's contract revoked by the state. If there were policies set as part of it being turned over to them, and they're not being met, then that's a possible outcome if enough noise is made.

The parks are public resources and we should not sit still for abuses similar to these.
Wouldn't it better to have the people who worked very hard to get cave diving access to negotiate with these people. Having somebody's contract revoked would result in a prolonged period until they found somebody suitable to run the park,which would mean no access. Then the next group managing the park may not be amenable to cave diving at all. Just my $.02 worth.

[Genesis]

The solution to this may be found in agitation to get the concessionare's contract revoked by the state. If there were policies set as part of it being turned over to them, and they're not being met, then that's a possible outcome if enough noise is made.

The parks are public resources and we should not sit still for abuses similar to these.
Wouldn't it better to have the people who worked very hard to get cave diving access to negotiate with these people. Having somebody's contract revoked would result in a prolonged period until they found somebody suitable to run the park,which would mean no access. Then the next group managing the park may not be amenable to cave diving at all. Just my $.02 worth.

That depends.

Is there not a river run from which access can be gained?

This setup was botched - badly - when the current contract was let, and we all (myself including, since I'm an interested cavediver!) were not "on the ball" when this was put together.

Now we know better.

The "group managing the park" problem is one that we, as divers, need to address as a group for all state park lands where there are diveable caves - not on a piece-parts basis.

This is public land, paid for and maintained with our tax dollars - we have a right to insist that it be done so in a rational and fair manner.

[mswicord]

I must say my experience at Madison last weekend was very different. After a morning dive at PSSP we plan on diving Telford that afternoon. Considering the nice weather and high likely hood of the locals coming out in full force we changed our plans and thought we would give Madison a try. We called before driving up and found that the park had all ready closed though the guy at the ACA said he would see if he could get in touch with the guy that worked at Madison; he wanted me to call him back in a few minutes.

I called back in about 10 minutes; he had not had not heard from the park guy yet. He asked for my phone number and said he would call me. At this point we were planning to do a 2nd dive at PSSP. In about 15-20 minutes my phone rang and it was the guy at ACA; he said he had gotten in touch with the Madison park guy and he was on the way back. I told him it would be 45-60 minutes before we could get there; he said no problem.

When we arrived at Madison the park was open and we dove after paying up (about $21.50 each). The park guy told us he would be gone before we completed our dive and left instructions on how to get out. (Note: there were only 3 in our group, this was communicated during the 1st phone call and seemed to be not problem.)

Mark

[J P Jones]

As an answer to the remark about bolt cutters that is what they make Jails for. The State has plans for the Park and even though things are not perfect they are better than they were. They cannot just put an iron ranger there without someone to man the park. Runnig off the existing contractor will only close it completely. Due to this years weather there have been so few divers there that it's hard to justify paying someone to just sit and wait. Give it time and when all the long term plans kick in it will be easier to get in because there will be a full time staff there.

Keep everything on a positive note because threats only hurt us and positive actions like what Kelly and crew have done at Peacock is what gets their attention.

[FW]

As an answer to the remark about bolt cutters that is what they make Jails for. The State has plans for the Park and even though things are not perfect they are better than they were. They cannot just put an iron ranger there without someone to man the park. Runnig off the existing contractor will only close it completely. Due to this years weather there have been so few divers there that it's hard to justify paying someone to just sit and wait. Give it time and when all the long term plans kick in it will be easier to get in because there will be a full time staff there.

Keep everything on a positive note because threats only hurt us and positive actions like what Kelly and crew have done at Peacock is what gets their attention.

John and several others have worked long and hard to get Madison open. Take his advice, and be patient. Call ahead to be sure there will be someone there.

[Genesis]

As an answer to the remark about bolt cutters that is what they make Jails for. The State has plans for the Park and even though things are not perfect they are better than they were. They cannot just put an iron ranger there without someone to man the park. Runnig off the existing contractor will only close it completely. Due to this years weather there have been so few divers there that it's hard to justify paying someone to just sit and wait. Give it time and when all the long term plans kick in it will be easier to get in because there will be a full time staff there.

Keep everything on a positive note because threats only hurt us and positive actions like what Kelly and crew have done at Peacock is what gets their attention.

OK, what are the "long term plans"?

If the state has 'em, they should be published. If they're a good thing, we can get behind them. However, we must first know what they are, no?

[PacerFan577]

Take his advice, and be patient. Call ahead to be sure there will be someone there.

FW - the advice is good advice, but my point was that we DID call ahead both times and were assured there would be someone there, but there wasn't either time. I understand it is pointless to pay someone to sit around all day if nobody is going to show up, but if it's just not profitable to do so, then maybe they should have "by arrangement only" on weekends in the winter too instead of published open hours.

I appreciate everything that everyone has done to open Madison, but I'm frustrated with the way it is currently being managed. However, the last thing I want to do is see the cave closed again. I'm glad to see there are plans in place, and I'm very glad to see that Mark's experience was much different than ours. Perhaps our ranting and raving at the owner of American Canoe Adventures over the phone after our second failed attempt did have some effect.

It's just frustrating that we wasted half a day of valuable dive time on two different weekends and we still haven't been able to dive the system. Even though it is technically open, it hasn't been very open to us. I hope progress is being made on the system and the management of the park; please keep us posted on changes, updates, and experiences with the park. Perhaps once things get busy with swimmers again this summer we'll try it again. Then again, maybe our two experiences were just a fluke.

[Jordan]

I too have fallen victim to a no show park guy, after driving..etc With due process in mind I did stamble onto yet anutha cave though and I must say 'twas AWESOME :P

[J P Jones]

OK, what are the "long term plans"?


Campng for one.

[Gregthecaver]

Any possibility with it being owned by the state of getting it run like Peacock springs? Maybe a drop honor box at entrance & a ranger or 2 to enforce fees & rules.The system the have at peacock works really well just wondered ifd anyone has tried lobbying for that.If it was better managed I am sure more people would come & in turn would be more profitable for the state.
greg

[FW]

Any possibility with it being owned by the state of getting it run like Peacock springs? Maybe a drop honor box at entrance & a ranger or 2 to enforce fees & rules.The system the have at peacock works really well just wondered ifd anyone has tried lobbying for that.If it was better managed I am sure more people would come & in turn would be more profitable for the state.
greg

True, but the state doesn't think that way.

They need to see the attendance in the winter go up a lot, before spending taxpayer dollars to keep it open for a handfull of divers.

[Gregthecaver]

Any possibility with it being owned by the state of getting it run like Peacock springs? Maybe a drop honor box at entrance & a ranger or 2 to enforce fees & rules.The system the have at peacock works really well just wondered ifd anyone has tried lobbying for that.If it was better managed I am sure more people would come & in turn would be more profitable for the state.
greg

True, but the state doesn't think that way.

They need to see the attendance in the winter go up a lot, before spending taxpayer dollars to keep it open for a handfull of divers.

"If you build it they will come" to quote a phrase from a certain movie.

The Bruic's proved that when they owned it. They did a great job.It was maintained well enough to rival Ginnie back then & I at least thought they did pretty good business.I may be wrong though.

I think the main problem now is that they were charging Ginnie type prices with no services like warm showers & on site air fills with no air station close by.I lokk at this way you get what you pay for .Ginnie you basically have a full service dive resort.You pay for it but it is as nice as can be expected with out them having an on site crane to winch you to and from the water with doubles on so you dont have to walk ;-) . Most people dont want to pay 21.00,have a long drive & no services.

Us cave divers(Ow also) are the ones that keep places going through the winters.I dont see many swimmers out at many of the springs during the winter months

[Ken Hill]

Greg,
The Madison property is managed by a private contractor who bid for the right to provide services there. His contract and primary obligation is to provide services in the summer for a recreational area for water sports, namely swimming. To that end he is providing excellent service and has the confidence and the support of the state. The contractor has no contractual obligation to open the park to cave divers in the winter months. Cave diving at the site was and is a favor to the cave diving community.

Since the site is operated by a contractor, it is not about tax dollars. The state has turned control of the site over to a concession who pays the state for the opportunity and in turn provides the services he is required by the state to perform. Again, cave diving is not one of those services. In order to allow cave diving the concessionaire put forth considerable effort last year with the help of the CDS to get cave diving permitted. The attorney helping the CDS at the time donated a good liability release, answers to insurance questions and spoke with state officials and their legal counsel. John Jones was CDS liaison and although not on the CDS BoD anylonger still does a tremendous job in maintaining the contractors confidence not only in the CDS, but for all cave diving agencies.

Reference cannot be made to the Bruic's who lived at and near the site and as owners had a lot more latitude on how to conduct business on the property. As John Jones said, the contractor is looking into camping as an element to help them justify the cost of hiring someone to stay on site. The by-product of that will be someone to be there in the swimming off season to assist in daily admissions for cave diving. Hopefully that will happen soon.

Forget the idea of an "iron ranger." The "honor fee" system is something used by the state but not normally done when the site is under lease to a contractor.
I personally am looking forward to seeing a CSO similar to the one Kelly Jessop has at Peacock and the ones that we are trying to get. So to all those out there that want to help get involved with the CDS and get ideas from people like Kelly and John on how to make the most impact for our sport.

/Ken

Hi Greg,
Patience is needed and diplomacy until the operator is able to justify staff. Like any business until he see's the value of an employee there all the time it won't happen. As soon as we all "befriend" land owners and operator's the more likely they will work with us.

By the way, the very nature of cave diving is that quite often you have to hike through the woods, trudge through the swamp or drive an hour or more to check the river level out to see if a cave is diveable. We waited (9) years for Hart to reopen...it was worth the wait. Cave diving isn't a "amusement park experience". Sometimes you have to work at it to get access. The benefit to that is when you get your shot at it you get a sweet memory because access is harder. The secondary benefit is because access is harder, less people dive the system, so the cave is more pristine! Just my thoughts.

Ralph D.