SM Harness & Redundant Bouyancy

[MDS]

Folks: am cave training using the Farrworld s/m harness & using drysuit only for bouyancy control. The Farrworld Harness has no means of redundant bouyancy incorporated unless you use it with a jacket style BCD or wing etc......

If you chose to dive deep enough where your drysuit could provide insufficient lift alone but still need to sidemount what are good s/m alternatives available to provide redundant lift.

I was mulling over the DiveRite Nomad recently but am still undecided by the abundance of harness's available

any recommendations/suggestions warmly recieved........

best, Matt S

[phillip1]

I use the Armadillo and it works great, it has enough lift (35lbs) for most dives, I just got back from a dive with 4 al80's and it was fine.
I think the Nomad (new model) has way too much lift and is a bit bulky, but it also works fine.
The Armadillo is much more streamlined, but much more of a pain to set up.
You could also try this link, the wing seems pretty cool.
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?product=1332

[Kelly Jessop]

I use the Armadillo and it works great, it has enough lift (35lbs) for most dives, I just got back from a dive with 4 al80's and it was fine.
I think the Nomad (new model) has way too much lift and is a bit bulky, but it also works fine.
The Armadillo is much more streamlined, but much more of a pain to set up.
You could also try this link, the wing seems pretty cool.
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?product=1332

I guess the type of tank is key,because I have seen people in the Armadillo in heavy steel tanks,and couldn't stay off the bottom. I've used the Junior/Trek wing for years and have found that it has worked well with the 45lbs of lift,but I am sure the drysuit is helping.

[Ogof]

I've used an old DR classic wing with my Farr harness for years. Worn under the harness and with the lower corners of the wing attached with slides to the main belt, it has worked pretty well. Take the bungees off the back d-rings and just string them through one of the central grommets on the back - this helps keep the wing from taco'ing. It is slightly bulky but better than BCD and plenty of lift - I have had 4 steel tanks plus a tackle bag of gear and no problems yet. HTH.

[phillip1]

I have never dove with steel tanks I always use AL80, but the Armadillo would at some point lack enough lift, it is a small wing like 30lbs.

[NorthWoodsDiver]

SMB uses those "camelbak" style bags with the razor. thats a pretty low profile option.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

SMB uses those "camelbak" style bags with the razor. thats a pretty low profile option.

Wonder if they'd be ample for larger steels though?

[Arek Pers]

I use the Armadillo and it works great, it has enough lift (35lbs)
Perhaps it has 35lbs when lays flat on the table :) when you put it on lift is reduced to almost half, I can easily fully inflate it with only one and half breath

[phillip1]

Perhaps it has 35lbs when lays flat on the table :) when you put it on lift is reduced to almost half, I can easily fully inflate it with only one and half breath
You can loosen the bungies around the wing if you need more lift and it will expand a lot more. For me it has enough lift and is still very streamlined.

[Arek Pers]

You can loosen the bungies around the wing if you need more lift and it will expand a lot more. For me it has enough lift and is still very streamlined.

Don't get me wrong, after few modification I love my armadillo
but it is impossible to obtain 35lbs of lift. If you are skinny is hard to get 20lbs
Diving dry with 2x 85 steel + 2x 80 al that's more than enough

[aainslie]

I don't get this.

I have used a drysuit and a 15 lb wing many times with steel 108's and up to 5 stages. The drysuit is uncomfortably full at the beginning of the dive but as cylinders empty it becomes a non-issue. I always return with the wing completely empty.

One issue may be the tanks. I use LP 108s and LP 85's, both Faber. These are pretty buoyant relative to a lot of other tanks.

[phillip1]

Don't get me wrong, after few modification I love my armadillo
but it is impossible to obtain 35lbs of lift. If you are skinny is hard to get 20lbs
Diving dry with 2x 85 steel + 2x 80 al that's more than enough

That's what the manual says but in reality it is always different.
What modifications did you do?

[RN]

SMB uses those "camelbak" style bags with the razor. thats a pretty low profile option.

With aluminum tanks, I still need weight in my 8/6 wet suit to get neutral at depth. I can also dive that configuration without anything to control my buoyancy other than my lungs. I might even be able to get away with that with steel 72s. There is no way, however, that I could ever do that with larger steel tanks. A camelbak will provide just enough buoyancy change to fine tune things...maybe 2-4 lbs of lift...which is all you need with aluminum tanks. Steel is completely different.

[NorthWoodsDiver]

With aluminum tanks, I still need weight in my 8/6 wet suit to get neutral at depth. I can also dive that configuration without anything to control my buoyancy other than my lungs. I might even be able to get away with that with steel 72s. There is no way, however, that I could ever do that with larger steel tanks. A camelbak will provide just enough buoyancy change to fine tune things...maybe 2-4 lbs of lift...which is all you need with aluminum tanks. Steel is completely different.

Read Steves "razor" threads here and on TDS. they make various sizes of those bags and apparently they have plenty of lift.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Read Steves "razor" threads here and on TDS. they make various sizes of those bags and apparently they have plenty of lift.

...but when does strapping a garbage bag sized camelback to a razor become more of a nuisance than just using a Nomad designed to lift heavier steel tanks in the first place?

Right tool for the right job.

[RN]

Read Steves "razor" threads here and on TDS. they make various sizes of those bags and apparently they have plenty of lift.

I have read Steve's threads and watched all the videos. I still haven't seen a video of anyone diving the Razor with a set of LP 108s. I have no problem using a small camelpak to dive 80s or small steel tanks. I can still swim those out of the cave off the bottom using my lungs if the camelpak fails. There's no way I'd be able to do that in 108s. And the camelpaks are not designed to be used as buoyancy compensators. They are designed to hold water not air. The risk of failure is way to great for me. I prefer to use a wing that is designed to withstand the type of diving I do. And some of the passages I've been through would have torn a camelpak to shreds.

I realize you're a big proponent of Steve's design. I like what I've seen, too. But it's not a good design for all applications. It's great for most of the caves in Mexico, which is where Steve dives. It's great for some of the caves in N. Florida. But it's not so good for most of the stuff I dive. Some of the dives I'm doing require lots of gas...LP108s or LP121s with a couple of stages. No camelpak is going to give me the buoyancy and be rugged enough for that.

[jackass]

I want to s.m. dive 2 al 80's. Would my drysuit alone be enough for buoyancy? I guess I could always carry a camelback for redundancy:?

Is diving sidemount 80's with a drysuit alone kosher? Or will I get the "what the **** are you doing" looks?

[350xfire]

Wonder if they'd be ample for larger steels though?

Probably not, he uses Al80s.

[350xfire]

I want to s.m. dive 2 al 80's. Would my drysuit alone be enough for buoyancy? I guess I could always carry a camelback for redundancy:?

Is diving sidemount 80's with a drysuit alone kosher? Or will I get the "what the **** are you doing" looks?


Your dry suit should be able to almost lift a car... Just like everything, some will say you are nuts and some live by it!!! Depends on the risk you wish to take and how comfortable you are with it.

[*Ag*]

I dive the Nomad and love it. It fits just about anywhere but on the other hand provides a decent amount of life when diving deep and carrying stages. It is comfy, ready to go and easy to use... saves a lot of fuffing trying to create your own SM rig.

[Brian Kakuk]

When Brett Hemphill designed the Armadillo, I believe he did so with a drysuit in mind for redundant buoyancy, or rather the drysuit for buoyancy and the Armadillo as redundancy.

In fresh water, the later model (A2) is at it's absolute limit with 2 steel 85s, and 3 aluminum 80 stages in an 7mm wetsuit. In Saltwater, the 3 AL stages can be handled more efficiently in the same configuration.

With a drysuit (DUI CF200), I find that I'm actually too buoyant unless I only use light undergarments with the same SM steels with 3 AL stages. My point being, if you are in a drysuit, the Armadillo is a perfect streamlined choice. I use the drysuit for buoyancy and the Armadillo for redundancy when diving dry.

Its a pretty basic concept: if you need more buoyancy, then you increase profile because the air has to be put somewhere, which usually equates out to larger shoulder bubbles in the drysuit shoulders or top of a wing such as the Nomad. Not a real problem if you dont mind dumping all your buoyancy gas prior to a snaggy squeeze, which I usually do anyway.

If you don't need the buoyancy, then the Armadillo and Razor are awesome choices. It's all about proper tool for the job.

If I need to haul more than 3 stages, I can use my Nomad, or use a drysuit. If I need to go skinny, then the Armadillo is my choice.

Safe diving,

Brian