Additional Second Stage?

[Ogof]

Does anyone who uses a long hose on one of their SM tanks also have a separate second stage on that first stage?

I’m thinking of a scenario when your long hose is donated in an OOG situation and you then switch to the other tank. If that tank or reg you are now breathing from then has a problem, you’re left to feather the remaining tank since your buddy has the long hose firmly clamped between his teeth :(. An additional (octo) second stage on the long hose reg would also allow sharing off that tank.

I know this may seem an extreme case (maybe not?) but worth discussing. It underlines that SM solo diving has a lot of redundancy, but as soon as you dive with a buddy and gas sharing is identified as a possibility, one level of that redundancy is significantly reduced.

I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Thanks.

[Kelly Jessop]

Does anyone who uses a long hose on one of their SM tanks also have a separate second stage on that first stage?

I’m thinking of a scenario when your long hose is donated in an OOG situation and you then switch to the other tank. If that tank or reg you are now breathing from then has a problem, you’re left to feather the remaining tank since your buddy has the long hose firmly clamped between his teeth :(. An additional (octo) second stage on the long hose reg would also allow sharing off that tank.

I know this may seem an extreme case (maybe not?) but worth discussing. It underlines that SM solo diving has a lot of redundancy, but as soon as you dive with a buddy and gas sharing is identified as a possibility, one level of that redundancy is significantly reduced.

I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Thanks.


I have known people to do this,but it adds another failure point.

[Slüdge]

I know this may seem an extreme case

You're talking a double catastrophic failure? Your buddy has no air, and then you have a cylinder/reg failure?

If cave diving were that hazardous I'd take up something safer, like human cannonball or something.

[JahJahwarrior]

If cave diving were that hazardous I'd take up something safer, like human cannonball or something.


You would join the circus?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I’m thinking of a scenario when your long hose is donated in an OOG situation and you then switch to the other tank. If that tank or reg you are now breathing from then has a problem, you’re left to feather the remaining tank since your buddy has the long hose firmly clamped between his teeth :(. An additional (octo) second stage on the long hose reg would also allow sharing off that tank.


Did you run three second stages from a backmount setup? Hell, if you have to feather a tank valve, I'd much rather do it in a SM configuration.

[Scott]

maybe both sides should have a long and a short hose, just in case the donated long hose decides to quit working? :smt102

[Ogof]

You're talking a double catastrophic failure? Your buddy has no air, and then you have a cylinder/reg failure?

Well, not really. It doesn't have to be a double failure. There are several reports of folks having buddies come to them for air because of stress, fatigue, perception of a poorly-working reg etc. and not because there actually was a real problem with the reg/tank.

What I'm talking about here is one failure, after the long hose has been donated. Of course this can happen in BM as well, but that's why SM solo diving often feels safer to many since there's no-one else to worry about and you have control over both regs/valves. When you dive with a buddy and you've agreed that sharing is a possibility, you're accepting the possibility of losing one of those air sources, unless you have two regs on it.

I should have phrased the original post differently. I guess the main question is whether the added failure point of an additional second stage on the long hose reg is worth the risk? I know of one very prominent SM instructor who dives in this configuration. But I'd like to hear if many folk have experienced this scenario when diving with another buddy.

Thanks.

[DogDiver]

Well, at least in SM you can put your deco, or stage reg on the cylinder with the problem reg. But I think in reality, if you have 2 divers sharing air on a single cylinder (SM with the 7 footer) your both screwed. I've seen a few SM divers using an "H" valve on their cylinders. Again, another failure point. Seems most side mount divers buddy with another side mount diver. Just food for thought...Ken

[Rich]

Why would you have a long hose when diving sidemount? If your buddy's in SM there's no need, if they're in BM then you should be in BM also! If you put an H valve on your SM rig, you should work on your breath holding ability, after a while you'll figure out you don't need one..... :) This is where this mixed team crap gets irritating.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[DogDiver]

In theory you don't need a 7 footer if team members are SM. I have practiced passing off one of my cylinders and it just takes too long. I would rather pass the 7 footer to my buddy start for the exit then, When we get things under control, exchange cylinders if time allows. Besides, I haven't turned my son over to the "dark side" (SM) yet. Like Mike says if you look at 10 side mount divers, you'll see 11 configurations. LOL. Safe diving Ken

[Ogof]

Why would you have a long hose when diving sidemount? If your buddy's in SM there's no need This is where this mixed team crap gets irritating.....

Well, it seems there are quite a few folk on this forum who do have one , and several who have used one for gas sharing through a restriction in SM. But ultimately it doesn't matter whether it's a long hose, short hose or pink-with-white-spots hose. :smt081 Similarly it doesn't matter whether you're in SM or mixed team, I just wanted to know whether anyone had experienced a failure on their remaining reg in SM after donating a long hose/other SM tank etc?

Many SM sites are low passage, murky, gritty etc. There are several cases of divers saying that their Cyklon second stages gritted up and they had to switch to the other tank. This can happen to two divers on the same dive - I've seen double failures occur in team SM dives but the individuals concerned just switched to their other set/feathered the valve etc. They were all experienced and all the dives turned out fine. But what if you're with someone who opts for your long hose - you're not going to argue with them at 100' and say no, you're just going to give it to them. So what happens if your remaining valve has a problem. Yes, two divers sharing the same tank could be in a lot of trouble - but that does depend on where you are in the dive and how big the tank is.

I'm pretty certain this is really uncommon but if it has happened, then it would be useful to know whether the folks concerned had wished for an additional second stage on the other reg which was donated. As I said, I know of a SM instructor who does this, and he has rationalised it out saying that in a teaching scenario it's work the risk of the additional failure point.

[sskasser]

Whoa! Wait a sec....you got a pink-with-white-spots hose? I WANT IT!!!!

[Serota]

Hey Rich,

I'm just wondering what your main concern(s) are with mixed team diving? Why do you feel that if one is BM all should be?

Thanks.


This is where this mixed team crap gets irritating.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[skip]

Why would you have a long hose when diving sidemount? If your buddy's in SM there's no need, if they're in BM then you should be in BM also! If you put an H valve on your SM rig, you should work on your breath holding ability, after a while you'll figure out you don't need one..... :) This is where this mixed team crap gets irritating.....

Safe diving,

Rich

Don't hold back, tell us how you feel about it....

-skip

[Rich]

Hey Rich,

I'm just wondering what your main concern(s) are with mixed team diving? Why do you feel that if one is BM all should be?

Thanks.

Hey Craig!

People are free to do what they want, it's just an opinion.......

IMHO sidemount is just another tool in your cave diving arsenal, kind of like scooters, stages or a rebreather and by eliminating something, eg backmount, from your arsenal or repertoire I think it makes you a less well rounded diver.

From a instructor point of view to try and teach a student who is in a different configuration from you is, in my opinion, somewhat idiotic, as it comes back down to that old fallacy, do as I say, not as I do........ I hold certain people in very high esteem and one of those who happens to be a former instructor teaches BM in BM, SM in SM and RB in RB 'cause they too feel that the team should be in the same configuration.

From a non-professional point of view, I don't think people shouldn't tie themselves down to one style of diving, for instance if I'm using sidemount, I'm either solo, or with another sidemounter going into sidemount cave! I'm not going to do it 'cause it's the new cool thing to do or whatever 'cause frankly I prefer backmounting due to the ease of setting up. However if a friend wants to dive sidemount for whatever reason, then I will also! Flexibility is the key here, I think..... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

[Rich]

Don't hold back, tell us how you feel about it....

-skip

Skip, have you ever known me not to....... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

[Serota]

Rich,

If there was a safety concern about mixed teams, I wanted to know what it was because I often dive with mixed teams. I can see how from an instructor's point of view being in a totally different (SM/BM) configuation would make things harder to explain. From a non-professional point of view, I'm happy to be one-dimensional. Thanks for the explanation.

[satchmo0016]

Since when is another 7' of hose so much of a risk?

If you add another second stage with equal probability of failure, the total risk is lessened. Why do you think we carry 3 lights instead of just 2? Why not 4? Risk/Encumbrance.

I'd prefer not to give away my whole bottle, and I keep 2 2nd stages on the right bottle for that emergency... they can be up to 7' away... not 22" face to face.. and the gas is still accessible.

[Rich]

Since when is another 7' of hose so much of a risk?

If you add another second stage with equal probability of failure, the total risk is lessened. Why do you think we carry 3 lights instead of just 2? Why not 4? Risk/Encumbrance.

I'd prefer not to give away my whole bottle, and I keep 2 2nd stages on the right bottle for that emergency... they can be up to 7' away... not 22" face to face.. and the gas is still accessible.

Well, it's not, apart from the encumbrance factor that you mentioned...... The question would be why would you need it? The whole point of sidemounting at least to me is to be SELF SUFFICIENT plus fit places backmounters can't...... :)

I'd imagine there's a reason that airsharing drills are not taught in sidemount classes, unlike some other specialties and a reason that they are taught if you're doing regular cave training in a sidemount configuration, where you're required to have a 7 ft hose!

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree! Now if we are using a longer hose so we can push bottles ahead of us easier then that's a little different but I like my LP18" hoses just fine. Again all of this is just an opinion, I remember when somebody asked me if I used a "buddy bottle" when I was sidemounting and I think I replied along the lines of "No, that's one of the reasons I sidemount when diving by myself"..... ;)

Safe diving,

Rich

[satchmo0016]

I do agree completely that a sidemount configuration is a tool with less failure points and goes well with solo diving.

I simply want to be able to help somebody no matter what configuration they're in.... Even if they're not part of the team.

:)

[stickydeco]

For 3 years I followed Jeffie Boy around while I was in Backmount. On each dive he took a long hose and ran it off an H Valve on his right side tank, all neatly tucked away, with the H-Valve in the off position. Man did I ever feel better about that.

So now that I'm doing this side mount mess...with one of Jeff's Gemini rigs no less, I too am diving with an H valve on the right side tank. None on the left. What a worthless no thinking copy cat...nothing original here....But I finally found a home for the 4 H Valves that I had laying around for years! And the others I dive with who are still killing their backs appreciate this arrangement too. 2 nice short hoses for me and a long hose for them!

Rich: Speaking of "short hoses"...I'll bet yours is real short....haha and ha. :rollguy

IDIOT Boy :smt081