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sskasser
06-02-2009, 07:53 AM
Ok, he was diving (free diving) and there is a cave ... but ...

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Local/newWEST01053109.htm

Blue Spring diver dies
By ANNE GEGGIS and JULIE MURPHY
Staff Writers


ORANGE CITY -- A diver at Blue Spring State Park was found floating unconscious in the water Saturday morning but could not be revived and was pronounced dead at Florida Hospital Fish Memorial, officials said.
This is the first cave-diving fatality at Blue Spring since 1994, according to statistics from the National Speleological Society, which began tracking the numbers that year.
Robert A. Jones, 38, of Zephyrhills had been solo "free diving" -- with a wetsuit but no tank -- when other divers discovered him at 10:22 a.m. floating face down under about 10 feet of water near the spring's boil.
Jones was not breathing and had no pulse, and might have been there up to 10 minutes, according to an EVAC ambulance spokesman and a Volusia County Sheriff's Office news release.
Rescuers from EVAC and the Orange City Fire Department had to enter the water to get Jones out. Park rangers and other divers assisted, EVAC spokesman Mark O'Keefe said.
"This was a rather complex, advanced life support rescue because the diver was in the area of the boil," O'Keefe said.
Jones, found to be in cardiac arrest, had to be hoisted onto a backboard, moved onto a rubber raft and floated downstream while responders worked to revive him, O'Keefe said.
"Truly an unusual call for this EVAC crew," O'Keefe said, adding that the crew had to get out of their wet clothes at the hospital.
The patient never regained consciousness, O'Keefe said. He was pronounced dead at 11:33, officials said.
An autopsy will be performed Monday, authorities said, but investigators don't suspect any foul play.
Cave diving deaths in Florida accounted for 42 of the 69 total recorded since 1994. The last 11 deaths have all occurred in Florida between 2006 and 2009 to the present date.
Though this was the first diving fatality at Blue Spring, there have been other close calls in which free divers -- who breathe deeply on the surface of the water to slow the heart rate and then use slow kicks to exert less energy while swimming downward -- nearly drowned there.
Like many free divers, a DeBary teenager sought out an underwater air pocket in 2006. The goal was to catch a breath so he could stay down longer, but it nearly killed him.
Instead of oxygen, what the teen took in was carbon dioxide. He suffered a seizure on his way to the surface, but was revived with CPR.
At least two other incidents occurred in which free divers nearly drowned in the Blue Spring cave in 2002.
Avid scuba divers say there is no safe air under water.
anne.geggis@news-jrnl.com (anne.geggis@news-jrnl.com)
julie.murphy@news-jrnl.com (julie.murphy@news-jrnl.com)
Cave Diving Fatalities 1994-2009 (to date)
The National Speleological Society tracks cave-diving accidents in the Americas. Its records are admittedly incomplete, so these numbers represent the minimum number of cave divers who have died. Sixty-nine deaths have been reported since 1994, of which 42 occurred in Florida. The last 10 fatalities, all since 2005, occurred in Florida.
Florida 42*
Mexico 9
Bahamas 4
Cuba 4
Brazil 2
California 2
Hawaii 2
Alabama 1
Belize 1
Missouri 1
New York 1
*-- Includes Saturday's death, which was the first in a Blue Spring cave.
SOURCE: American Caving Accidents

icestac
06-02-2009, 09:37 AM
I agree with the question mark. Will the NSS/CDS really count this?

While it doesn't help the family at all, I just don't know that it should be classified as a "cave diving death".

Jeff

mfascuba
06-02-2009, 01:27 PM
While tragic, the use of freediving techniques does not make a person swimming into the cave into a cave diver. The warning signs on the surface should be adequate to keep folks from thinking before they undertake acts of questionable safety.

Mark

BobK
06-02-2009, 02:12 PM
The warning signs on the surface should be adequate to keep folks from thinking before they undertake acts of questionable safety.

Mark

Mark,

I'm sure this was a typo, but I think it may really be the point. People sometimes spend a lot of energy bypassing obvious signs warning them not to do what they eventually manage to do. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they don't.

Makes you wonder about Abe Davis. Was he really a great predecessor for cave divers, showing us the way, and having a safety award named after him, or was he just a luckier version of this poor soul ?

Jay
06-02-2009, 02:37 PM
A number of free divers use this system for practice.

WEPIV
06-03-2009, 12:10 AM
I was there last summer diving with my cousin and we were down around 90 feet and was surprised to see an older gentleman swimming down beneath us free-diving with only a wet suit, fins and mask.
He shot us a look and it seemed like he was trying to get deeper than we were with our tanks on.
He seemed to be doing just fine but we were surprised to see him down there.

metaldector
06-03-2009, 02:15 PM
So if a man attends the Daytona 500, he's parked on race track property and goes to his privately owned car and dies of a heart attack, will it listed as a NASCAR fatality, since it was on the grounds of the race course during a race? I think this free diver death is wrongly attributed as a cave dive.

skip
07-02-2009, 05:35 PM
if you die while attempting a cave dive, it's a cave dive fatality. doesn't matter what gear you wore or didn't wear, or what training you had or didn't have. If you die of a heart attack in your car in the parking lot after a cave dive, it's not a cave dive fatality.

-skip

Arnold Mesiser
07-02-2009, 08:30 PM
If a caver/sump diver is pushing a short sump breath holding ( a technique coming out of vogue I hope) and drowns- Is it a cave diving accident or a caving accident>?

MichaelAngelo
07-02-2009, 08:44 PM
if a diver dies in his car in a cave under a race track and no one is around to hear him die. Does he make a noise?

Slüdge
07-02-2009, 11:31 PM
If a chicken and a half lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how long would it take a blind grasshopper to kick all the seeds out of a dill pickle?

Mark Vlahos
07-02-2009, 11:35 PM
if a diver dies in his car in a cave under a race track and no one is around to hear him die. Does he make a noise?

No, but his wife will still say he is wrong. ;-)

MORGAN
07-03-2009, 07:41 AM
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Mike

sskasser
07-03-2009, 09:34 AM
If a chicken and a half lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how long would it take a blind grasshopper to kick all the seeds out of a dill pickle?

42

JahJahwarrior
07-03-2009, 03:00 PM
if you die while attempting a cave dive, it's a cave dive fatality. doesn't matter what gear you wore or didn't wear, or what training you had or didn't have. If you die of a heart attack in your car in the parking lot after a cave dive, it's not a cave dive fatality.

-skip

If I die on my way to a cave with an intent to dive the cave, is that a cave diving fatality? If I die in open water on my way into the cave, is that a cave diving fatality? If I die in open water after exiting the overhead environment, is that a cave dive?

I think it's tough to fully define what is and isn't a cave diving fatality without having room for margin. A heart attack underwater might have nothing to do with the fact that you were in an overhead environment, so why do we attribute that to a cave diving death? Why not simply call it a diving death? I think there is a difference between cause and location that is vitally important in assuring others that are our sport is not incredibly reckless: the number of deaths that were in a cave is much higher than the number of people whose life span was shortened by virtue of being underneath rocks.

In this case, I feel very comfortable saying "it was a death in an overhead environment" but I struggle to feel comfortable putting it in the same column of data as deaths such as those of Steve Berman.

skip
07-28-2009, 08:30 AM
I wasn't trying to define cave diving fatality or say that's what it should be. I was saying that's the most likely way of defining by the press. If one is in the cave, it's a cave diving fatality. If one is not in the cave it's not. The various nuances are too nuanced for a nonnuanced public.

It can also be that a stroke is the result of the cave dive (overexertion), so I don't see how to take all strokes and put them in a category of non-cave related. If the person had not been cave diving that day, the stroke would not have occurred. But was the stroke just waiting in the wings for an opportunity? And if so is that a cave diving fatality or just the grim reaper doing his job?

-skip

diveconjeff
07-28-2009, 12:09 PM
Did he cross the line in first?

diveconjeff
07-28-2009, 12:09 PM
But then I guess he would have crossed "under the line"...