UTD Unified Team Diving - any thoughts??

[stmichael2]

I have been diving a long time but no overhead or tech training. An old friend and experienced tech diver and instructor has moved over to UTD and recommends it highly. They don't have any cave specific classes I am aware of, but offer tech and overhead classes (wreck). Its a new orginization. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Best to all, Mike

[Slüdge]

They don't have any cave specific classes I am aware of

Sure they do, just look at their website. You can learn to cave dive from the comfort of your computer chair.

http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/group/cave1classroom

(Anybody that describes themselves as "holistic" loses me from the start.)

[sskasser]

That's a pretty cool site. I like the option of starting the classroom portion from home. It gives folks a chance to start learning the basic "book learnin'" before they get to class. It doesn't work for everyone, and obviously the instructor is still responsible for ensuring that everything is actually learned, but what a great way to get a jump-start on your class. That way, at least EVERYTHING isn't brand new knowledge when you arrive. Slower input over time = better absorption for me.

[masterof0]

Their approach definitely does not appear to be as hard core as most are accustom to with agencies such as GUE, which has made it a lot easier to take in some of their ideas/methodologies without becoming defensive. (The also are not a brand specific agency which helps) I am actually taking the Essentials class in the next couple of weeks. Although I am not totally sold on the "holistic" approach, there are definitely facets of the methodology that I do like that are not part of the tradition agency courses. Although I cannot speak directly about the cavern/cave courses, I can tell you that so far, it has been a very pleasant experience. It is not just an "online" class that you read through the material and answer some questions. As you take the online course, there is a community forum that you can post questions to. There is an open community similar to here where all members have access to, then there is a forum dedicated to the course you will be taking that have instructors and students that have signed up for the class within the last year. All of hte instructors seem to be very engaged and if you know who your course instructor will be, you have direct access to him/her as well, either through email or through PM.

[aainslie]

Go to a fill station at any cave in the world. Sit around and poll people as they come through and see how many got their training from UTD.

Be prepared for a looooooooong wait before you get your first hit.

Now do the same thing with.... well, pretty much anyone else. Even those GUE guys.

[Danseur]

I'd dive with a UTD guy before a PADI guy...

How many DSAT divers do you know? Doesn't mean they didn't have good training though. I KNOW PDIC has good training, but their divers are rare as well these days, but as an RSTC member they are recognized so you'll never get refused a fill/boat dive on that basis.

Man, this is so going to turn into another it's all about the instructor thing.... which it always is and will be when you get down to it.

Want recognition? There are higher profile agencies for sure, but UTD is legit.... Properly vet your instructor and don't worrry about it unless you are going to go %100 GUE.

Good luck and enjoy the class!

[FW]

I KNOW PDIC has good training, but ....
I don't know about that. I worked for a PDIC instructor once. His lectures consisted of him reading aloud from the PDIC manual. The saddest part was, he couldn't read very well. He told me that PDIC *required* their instructors to read aloud from the manual... :roll:

[cmalinowski]

I don't know about that. I worked for a PDIC instructor once. His lectures consisted of him reading aloud from the PDIC manual. The saddest part was, he couldn't read very well. He told me that PDIC *required* their instructors to read aloud from the manual... :roll:
My daughter just got OW cert'd through a PDIC instructor. It was a truly awsome class.* I was very happy with how well she ended up being. No reading straight out of the book. Decent trim and buoyancy control along with many other facets of good diving were learned.

Chris
*Note: To be fair, the PDIC instructor is also training director of a well-known agency. So maybe it does boil down to instructor vs agency :)

The picture is of her and me on a 30' stop right after her checkout dives.

[stmichael2]

Thanks for the comments. UTD is very new, but their materials seem ok so far. As far as the instructor, I have known him for a few years and he is very good and very high on this new org. He also gets high marks from serious tech guys that are professional law enforcement tech recovery divers I know, so I guess I will take the plunge and see how it goes. I'll provide any updates I can to the forum.

[Howard]

"professional law enforcement tech recovery divers..... "

OK where's the punchline?

[Scubastud16]

(The also are not a brand specific agency which helps)

:roll:

[WJH]

"professional law enforcement tech recovery divers..... "

OK where's the punchline?

Certainly that WAS the punchline! Start a thread with that title and pop the popcorn!

WJH

[Danseur]

Clearly they sucked. Instructor VS Agency.... I know 2 PDIC instructors (training directors) who wouldn't in a million years pull that ****. OK, actually like 8, which is all the PDIC instructors I know. ALL GOOD INSTRUCTORS!!!! I'd trust any one of them with a family member or a friend who I KNEW was going to go Tech down the way. I actually know many more people that I wouldn't trust than ones I do....


I don't know about that. I worked for a PDIC instructor once. His lectures consisted of him reading aloud from the PDIC manual. The saddest part was, he couldn't read very well. He told me that PDIC *required* their instructors to read aloud from the manual... :roll:

[jj1987]

Sure they do, just look at their website. You can learn to cave dive from the comfort of your computer chair.

http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/group/cave1classroom

(Anybody that describes themselves as "holistic" loses me from the start.)
FWIW those course materials are clearly meant to be nothing more than a supplement to a class, just as the NACD, GUE, and NSS-CDS books on cave diving are. Having seem some of the UTD training material, it's light years ahead of any other agencies training material that I've seen. To go along with it, they offer private discussion forums where you can interact with other students and instructors to discuss the material. Narrated slides make it easier to follow along than reading a training manual. Quizzes are provided to test and make sure you learned what you should have, along with the answer keys.

I really don't see a need for an instructor to present book knowledge during a class. If the instructor is going to simply repeat what the book says....why should the student buy the book? I'd rather spend the time going beyond that by asking questions and getting critiqued-- this is how my nacd and nss-cds courses were both taught, but the material wasn't as good as what I've seen from UTD (I haven't seen their cave classroom however). This seems like a way to maximize that time, and cut down on the time spent going over basics. If they migrate to the southeast, I wouldn't mind taking a class with them to formulate a better opinion, but it seems they have some new ideas on training that have potential.


The also are not a brand specific agency which helps
Which agency is brand specific? I've yet to hear of one, although I do know of manufactures who build their gear to agency requirements.

[FW]

"professional law enforcement tech recovery divers..... "

OK where's the punchline?
They *recover* tech divers? :roll:

[WJH]

They *recover* tech divers? :roll:

As in reupholster them?

WJH

[Me]

Isn't this the agency Andrew G, of former GUE fame, started?

[masterof0]

Isn't this the agency Andrew G, of former GUE fame, started?

You are correct

[stmichael2]

Thanks for all the good advice. I really appreciate it. I am just a new guy trying to learn.

Regarding the recovery tech guys I was referring to, maybe I used the wrong terms. What they do, however, isn't so funny. Among other things, they recover the bodies of imprudent "tech divers" that are too deep for local agencies to pull up.

[txdiver]

If you are taking the course in the Detroit Metro area, your UTD instructor is excellent. I know him personally.

You will have a great time learning in a 21st century way.

[WJH]

Thanks for all the good advice. I really appreciate it. I am just a new guy trying to learn.

Regarding the recovery tech guys I was referring to, maybe I used the wrong terms. What they do, however, isn't so funny. Among other things, they recover the bodies of imprudent "tech divers" that are too deep for local agencies to pull up.

No, what they do is not funny, and is much appreciated. And your description was pretty good, too.

What's funny, is many of us have been exposed to divers who would refer to themselves as "professional law enforcement tech recovery divers", and most are not professional, not law enforcement, definitely not tech, and have maybe recovered (located) an abandoned car in a local fishing hole. Still, what they do is usually valuable when they manage to accomplish it without injuring themselves.

So no disrespect meant to any of the well-meaning souls who are involved in recovery diving, and please get all the good training you can so you can serve in safety.

WJH

[stmichael2]

wow, didn't know I had it in me to pop such a big thread. thanks to all for the advice and comments. im just a sponge trying to soak it all up!

[fitnessdiver]

No, what they do is not funny, and is much appreciated. And your description was pretty good, too.

What's funny, is many of us have been exposed to divers who would refer to themselves as "professional law enforcement tech recovery divers", and most are not professional, not law enforcement, definitely not tech, and have maybe recovered (located) an abandoned car in a local fishing hole. Still, what they do is usually valuable when they manage to accomplish it without injuring themselves.

So no disrespect meant to any of the well-meaning souls who are involved in recovery diving, and please get all the good training you can so you can serve in safety.

WJHActually your initial assessment of the organization is more correct. The concept was a wonderful idea but the implementation has certainly fallen short of the mark. And to my knowledge they have NEVER done a recovery of a tech diver, rec diver diving beyond their training yes, but no tech divers.

[ae3753]

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

UTD is a new organization, but I have been very impressed with the caliber of materials and instruction.

I recently took UTD Tech 1 (Tech 1 class report (http://www.deepseasherpa.com/blog/training/utd-technical-diver-1-class-report/)) and it was a very well executed class.

Having the materials before hand in actual presentation form and the numerous videos allowed us to absorb the material and prepare for class. By the time we met with our instructor, we could ask more informed questions.

http://deepseasherpa.com/images/t1_materials.jpg

As expected, the class itself was rigorous and challenging. However, at the end, it made us more excited about our local diving.

Even after class, the forum proved helpful. I asked 2 questions recently and was answered the same day - sometimes within minutes. And what's more impressive to me was that the questions were answered by different instructors in the organization.

In fact, I've been so impressed by the commitment of the organization that I'm looking to become a recreational instructor for UTD.

And since someone brought up PDIC, I did my OW with a PDIC instructor. Very solid foundation, and our instructor pushed us to be better divers.

-Don

[Randy Thornton]

UTD is a new organization, but I have been very impressed with the caliber of materials and instruction.

I recently took UTD Tech 1 (Tech 1 class report (http://www.deepseasherpa.com/blog/training/utd-technical-diver-1-class-report/)) and it was a very well executed class.

Having the materials before hand in actual presentation form and the numerous videos allowed us to absorb the material and prepare for class. By the time we met with our instructor, we could ask more informed questions.

http://deepseasherpa.com/images/t1_materials.jpg

As expected, the class itself was rigorous and challenging. However, at the end, it made us more excited about our local diving.

Even after class, the forum proved helpful. I asked 2 questions recently and was answered the same day - sometimes within minutes. And what's more impressive to me was that the questions were answered by different instructors in the organization.

In fact, I've been so impressed by the commitment of the organization that I'm looking to become a recreational instructor for UTD.

And since someone brought up PDIC, I did my OW with a PDIC instructor. Very solid foundation, and our instructor pushed us to be better divers.

-Don

Was this picture actually from you or from their marketing brochure? :)

[rjack]

Was this picture actually from you or from their marketing brochure? :)

That looks like ae3753's wife unit studying hard!

[ae3753]

That looks like ae3753's wife unit studying hard!

Yep, the wife is doing last minute review before the class.


Was this picture actually from you or from their marketing brochure?

I knew I was going to write a class report so I took pictures along the way. For me, it's nice to be able to cut up the text with images.

Glad that there weren't underwater photos though.

[stmichael2]

Actually your initial assessment of the organization is more correct. The concept was a wonderful idea but the implementation has certainly fallen short of the mark. And to my knowledge they have NEVER done a recovery of a tech diver, rec diver diving beyond their training yes, but no tech divers.

Wow, way off track. I wasn't referring to UTD. I was referring to a TOTALLY seperate group of public safety divers. Regarding UTD, I enrolled in a course and am very pleased with it.:rollguy

[fitnessdiver]

Wow, way off track. I wasn't referring to UTD. I was referring to a TOTALLY seperate group of public safety divers. Regarding UTD, I enrolled in a course and am very pleased with it.:rollguy

Yep I am also referring to mtrt. Well aware of that fact.

[OFG-1]

UTD? Isn't that short for urinary tract disorder?

[johnnyrichards]

UTD is a new organization, but I have been very impressed with the caliber of materials and instruction.-Don

And UTD is different from GUE in what manner?

Obviously different personnel, but from the material I've read the "better than" and club mentality attitudes persist. Not surprising considering the roots of the organization.

[Slüdge]

And UTD is different from GUE in what manner?

Different letters.

[battles2a5]

And UTD is different from GUE in what manner?

Obviously different personnel, but from the material I've read the "better than" and club mentality attitudes persist. Not surprising considering the roots of the organization.

I guess one material difference is that you do not have to "grow up" in UTD like you do in GUE. So a TDI Normoxic diver can take Tech 2 (or 3, whatever the corresponding level is) if I read the materials correctly. So I suppose that is a plus if you want to go "DIR" at a higher level of experience.

Another difference if that there are some distint PADI-esque courses. My favorite is "zero bouyancy diving" e.g. monkey diving. I think that anyone that buys a $4000 scooter and still needs lessons on how to do barrel rolls with a BP and a stage should have all of their dive equipment confiscated and be relegated to pup jackets and snorkels for the rest of their diving career. But that's just me.

[aainslie]

I think that its a bit harsh to describe UTD as being a GUE lookalike. They've taken a lot of the GUE mentality, but are far more open minded in many ways. And since theyre offering a mix of tech and recreational classes I don't really have a problem with a class like the monkey diving class... although God only knows what they teach there.

My only issue is their cave experience, combined with whether we really need yet another cave certifying agency. It just seems like too many agencies are trying to get cave certs, leading to dilution in efffort at creating consistent, good standards. There are more agencies offering cave certs (to a tiny minority of the community) than there are offering OC certs!! NSSCDS, NACD, IANTD, GUE, NAUI, UTD... and I'm sure I've missed out a few European ones. And about half the agencies are because someone got pissed off with someone else and started their own. It's overkill.

Anyway... that said, there's a group of UTD divers here in LA (I've only observed them in open water) who utterly have their **** together. So certainly they seem to produce capable divers from my limited experience. And they go on boats with us all the time... and even occasionally team up with us. They're a fun group to dive with. That's rare with GUE divers.

[jj1987]

Obviously different personnel, but from the material I've read the "better than" and club mentality attitudes persist. Not surprising considering the roots of the organization.
Not sure what you mean here? I've had no issues diving with GUE trained divers-- even though I've had no GUE training at all...they've been some of the most helpful actually...from what I've seen, they produce divers who make great buddies and are typically willing to help with / answer any questions I've had on why they do things the way they do? :smt102

[aainslie]

Not sure what you mean here? I've had no issues diving with GUE trained divers-- even though I've had no GUE training at all...they've been some of the most helpful actually...from what I've seen, they produce divers who make great buddies and are typically willing to help with / answer any questions I've had on why they do things the way they do? :smt102

I'm afraid that I haven't found the same to be true. Quite the opposite in fact.

[rjack]

All of my cave training has been with GUE (multiple instructors) and all of my technical training with AndrewG (via the various agencies he's been with). I think I have gotten the best of each has to offer, so if I had to do it all over I wouldn't change a thing.

In particular, UTD's online "book" (powerpoints, videos, voiceover lectures, greasepencil diagrams, etc) is really outstanding, vastly superior to any other agency's course support materials I have seen. You can still order the Intro to Tech and Technical diver DVDs if you want to see these earlier incarnations. The current online materials built on those.

I like to think I have my **** together, although somedays I just can't tell :)

[jj1987]

I'm afraid that I haven't found the same to be true. Quite the opposite in fact.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some bad apples, but I hate seeing all the people trained by an agency stereotyped based off of a select few. Especially when the WKPP is such a great example of how cave diving can be pulled off safely, and the environmental benefits of allowing cave divers in systems. Also, don't forget that as recent as the very last NSS-CDS social, JJ participated as a speaker.

Not pointing fingers-- I know this isn't the case with you.

[Me]

Yeah, I'm sure there's some bad apples, but I hate seeing all the people trained by an agency stereotyped based off of a select few. Especially when the WKPP is such a great example of how cave diving can be pulled off safely, and the environmental benefits of allowing cave divers in systems. Also, don't forget that as recent as the very last NSS-CDS social, JJ participated as a speaker.

Not pointing fingers-- I know this isn't the case with you.

Not pointing fingers here either, but your age is listed as 21. There is A LOT of muddy water under the bridge from before you were on the scene. I've had good experiences with GUE folks, and I've had some really bad ones like AA references. It has gotten much better in recent years, but there was a time in GUE's infancy that they were just as militant and superior as GI3 was in his hey-day.

I saw a diver who was GUE trained not do a very simple, shallow ocean boat dive because there was no one on the boat to buddy with trained in the same manner he was, nor did they have exactly the same gear config. He paid for the dives, and didn't get a refund. He sat on the deck with the captain while the rest of the divers went diving. His choice, but it made him look like an elitest.

[jj1987]

Not pointing fingers here either, but your age is listed as 21. There is A LOT of muddy water under the bridge from before you were on the scene. I've had good experiences with GUE folks, and I've had some really bad ones like AA references. It has gotten much better in recent years, but there was a time in GUE's infancy that they were just as militant and superior as GI3 was in his hey-day.
Oh, I'm sure there's a lot I haven't been exposed to-- but maybe that's a good thing, us younger guys can set an example for you old farts :rollguy

[aainslie]

Oh, I'm sure there's a lot I haven't been exposed to-- but maybe that's a good thing, us younger guys can set an example for you old farts :rollguy

Yep, it always amazes me what a wonderful experimental dataset the young produce for us old farts as they retry all the dumbass stuff we tried when we were young... and confirm how dumb it was.

[Randy Thornton]

I have decided to start a new certification agency. It will only be available to people 50 years and older. Instead of adopting the "DIR" philosophy, we are going with "DIL" (Done it Longer)

Now excepting applications!

Regards,
Randy

[stmichael2]

Cyberspace never ceases to amaze me. Nerds grow muscles here and say whatever rude things they please without fear of getting the sh-t slapped out of them like they would if they made such comments in person.

Still, shouldn't such behavior be more fun while playing Wwarcraft or Dungeons & Dragons than dogging other divers and public servants? Go ahead, send your nasty-gram back. I know you cant resist!


Actually your initial assessment of the organization is more correct. The concept was a wonderful idea but the implementation has certainly fallen short of the mark. And to my knowledge they have NEVER done a recovery of a tech diver, rec diver diving beyond their training yes, but no tech divers.

[aainslie]

Cyberspace never ceases to amaze me. Nerds grow muscles here and say whatever rude things they please without fear of getting the sh-t slapped out of them like they would if they made such comments in person.

Still, shouldn't such behavior be more fun while playing Wwarcraft or Dungeons & Dragons than dogging other divers and public servants? Go ahead, send your nasty-gram back. I know you cant resist!

Is your post self-referential or am I missing something... ?