Full Cave & Tec Training

[atedeschi]

It came up in discussion recently that there are alot of full cave divers that do not have tec training. I find that odd because I would think they would go hand in hand. I believe full cave divers should at least have deco procedures, but lets see what the poll says.

[Line Squirrel]

You didn't vote :)

[atedeschi]

whoops

[jeandiver]

Aha , there you did (SMILE)

It's interesting what goes into the "tec" category.
(meaning you talk to 6 people , you get er , 10 answers...!!!???) :D

Beano

[MORGAN]

Everything but trimix - so far I'm not doing dives that require it. If & when I do, I'll get trimix training. Until then, I'll spend the money I would have spent on trimix training and helium on cave diving trips!

Mike

[FW]

Does that mean before or after you took cave training? Some people take cave training first, then go on to other tech courses.

The *only* tech course when I started was cavediver! It was cavedivers that developed all of today's "tech" courses. Mixed gas came into recreational diving through cavedivers. Sheck Exley developed the first civilian gas tables.

[Jim Wyatt]

The *only* tech course when I started was cavediver!


Roger that, same here.

[atedeschi]

it means currently. ie: are you full cave diving with or without one of the levels marked above. Not what training you had at the completion of your course.

[bigken462]

I've been certified to AN/DP for a few years now and never considered myself to be tech trained, just recently I also finished Intro to cave up and still don't consider myself to be tech. However I think those that clawed their way to full cave and beyond have earned just as much right to be considered technical divers as those with a lil bit of Helium to their mix.

I can't imagine the pre-planning it would take to plan a deep and extended push requiring multiple stage drops and ceilings. Add in burn times for lights and scooters and I think if anything that could very well be more technically challenging that a simple deep dive alone. I've done neither so I can't say with certainty and with experience however.

Time will tell and I hope after a few years and many more dives later I can write such a post dive report with experience. Until then it's the gold line and 6th's. Nothing technical about that. Lol

Kenny

[Slüdge]

Yeah, I'm trained in technical diving. It's called cave diving.

In my day, the things you learn in "Advanced Nitrox" and "Decompression Procedures" were taught during cave training. Of course, I learned decompression diving in NASDS Open Water.

[skip]

I've always heard that cavern/cave IS technical diving. This came up at an NACD meeting awhile back when I suggested separating "recreational" cave diving from "technical" cave diving. I was roundly and soundly thrashed for entertaining the idea that any aspect of cavern/cave could be considered recreational.

I think the poll is not interested in such distinctions, rather simply wanting to know what tec training in addition to cave.

-skip

[atedeschi]

the reason is because if you are doing full cave types of dive, you should probably be at least deco trained or adv nitro.deco. Most caves if you are diving to 3rds you are going to run into deco, yes there are exceptions. it came up in discussion and was said that if you are full cave you should at least have deco procedures.

[MORGAN]

Yeah, I'm trained in technical diving. It's called cave diving.

This is my feeling as well, though I think this poll is interesting to see what other training people have in addition to full cave.

Every technical diving certification except cave can be gotten from some instructors without ever having to let go of the anchor line. :(

Well, maybe not DPV... :)

Mike

[JahJahwarrior]

Why don't instructors add AN/DP to full cave courses? Two birds with one stone.

[BabyDuck]

jah, you can. i did adv nit with full in jan.

[Slüdge]

Why don't instructors add AN/DP to full cave courses?

As my post mentioned, mine did. Only he didn't charge for it. His thinking is that decompression procedures are a part of cave diving.

[atedeschi]

I believe deco procedures should either be a prereq for full cave, or teach it with full cave, but use the apprentice course for how it was meant to be used (aka no zero to hero courses), make a diver show x number of dives before moving on, so they can gain experience. Just because you can demonstrate skills, without experience with diving they have not had a chance to handle issues. sorry alittle of topic.

[dogwatch]

The *only* tech course when I started was cavediver! It was cavedivers that developed all of today's "tech" courses. Mixed gas came into recreational diving through cavedivers.

same here

[argyris]

The *only* tech course when I started was cavediver! It was cavedivers that developed all of today's "tech" courses. Mixed gas came into recreational diving through cavedivers. Sheck Exley developed the first civilian gas tables.

Same here, I discover now that I am getting old!!!

However, cave diving IS technical diving. Technical diving is NOT necessarily cave diving.

Argyris

[StaceyS]

Why don't instructors add AN/DP to full cave courses? Two birds with one stone.

This was covered in my Cave 2 and Tech 1 training:)

Stacey

[JahJahwarrior]

My instructor covered it enough that I feel safe doing the decompression dives I am currently doing--with a single gas, in the cave environment. I don't know if I asked specifically about combining full with AN/DP, but I do remember him tell me to wait to take AN/DP until after full cave because then, the class could be taught in the cave, whereas with apprentice or lower, AN/DP would be taught in open water. Atleast, that's my best recollection of what I was told. I think AN/DP is a three day course, generally, correct? Requiring more dives than full cave, and it's a pricey course from what I've seen. I simply don't have the time nor the money, but I would like to take it. As it is, I do feel I have learned enough about decompression procedures for the level of diving I am doing currently. I do know that my instructor used resources other than the cave agency textbooks to teach me, and I wish that the standard procedure was to teach AN/DP with full cave classes....just like I wish more was taught about karst/aquifer processes :D

My instructor did a great job of covering the topics that would be important for the diving I am doing, and that was great. I know I could get an AN/DP card from some fly by night instructor for a low price, but I honestly would rather be mentored by a good instructor and not get a card, then have a card but no clue what I'm doing. As it is, I don't have a card, but my instructor has taught me some of the things I need to know, and when I have questions he is always willing to answer them, or show me the tools to think through the problem myself.

[StaceyS]

just like I wish more was taught about karst/aquifer processes :D

I couldn't agree with you more!

[JahJahwarrior]

I couldn't agree with you more!

After completing an independent study with a geology professor here at UCF, focused on the geologic structure of Florida and her aquifers, I'm contemplating attempting to write an article to explain aquifer and karst processes in layman's terms, to submit to one of the journals. We'll see if I ever get around to it...

[jj1987]

Do standards even allow for instructors to teach adv nitrox and deco in the cave before a student has a full cave cert? I've been told they don't, but I've also seen basic cave combined with AN/DP.

I took apprentice and full cave through 2 different instructors, and both required a deco bottle for each course. I've heard of some full cave courses where you couldn't use o2 unless you were already deco trained. I made sure to find an instructor who covered this.

FWIW the full cave exam requires you to answer a few deco questions, and explain the method you used to calculate the deco plan. From my understanding, you can use ratio deco, software, tables, or other methods, as long as you answer the question.

[battles2a5]

I think another interesting poll would be to see how many people are doing OW decompression dives using the basic deco instruction gained during cave training (current cave training, anyway). I know of more than a few people doing offshore dives w/ considerable amounts of deco, even w/ helium, without taking the classes and instead relying on what they learned in cave class. Granted, a lot of the skills crossover but there are considerable gaps in what you do in a cave vs. handling these dives in open water.

[skip]

After completing an independent study with a geology professor here at UCF, focused on the geologic structure of Florida and her aquifers, I'm contemplating attempting to write an article to explain aquifer and karst processes in layman's terms, to submit to one of the journals. We'll see if I ever get around to it...

that would be great! hope you find the time and get it done.

I'd also like to see the training agencies offer some classes, maybe even a "speciality" in karst processes, cave conservation, etc. like the speciality in dpv, a karst/conservation speciality could be needed for parts of ginnie, certain guided dives, etc.

-skip

[aainslie]

that would be great! hope you find the time and get it done.

I'd also like to see the training agencies offer some classes, maybe even a "speciality" in karst processes, cave conservation, etc. like the speciality in dpv, a karst/conservation speciality could be needed for parts of ginnie, certain guided dives, etc.

-skip

Actually, I don't really see a need for this. The key thing with sensitive cave is keeping your mitts off it. That takes technique, not knowledge about karst development. Experience based rules are probably better - neither, of course, is perfect.

[LiteHedded]

it was included in my class (iantd technical cave)
I also have a normoxic trimix cert

[skip]

Actually, I don't really see a need for this. The key thing with sensitive cave is keeping your mitts off it. That takes technique, not knowledge about karst development. Experience based rules are probably better - neither, of course, is perfect.

no real need for a night diving speciality, scooter speciality, wreck speciality, or u/w photographer either, but they exist. I'm not saying a speciality in karst development should be a requirement for cave cert, but offering it as a speciality seems reasonable.

I think we've seen enough damage to caves in the last few years to realize that telling people to "keep[ing] your mitts off it," and experience based rules, are not doing the job.

Education can lead to increased awareness and concern. Good divers are always learning, and a lot of it is about the environments we dive in. People become more aware and more sensitive to the environment when they are educated about that environment.

-skip

[aainslie]

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea of a class in cave conservation, geology etc. I just don't think it'd be a useful prerequisite to diving sensitive cave.

[rjack]

This was covered in my Cave 2 and Tech 1 training:)

Stacey

My Cave2 covered rudimentary deco too. Although we were in mexico (shallow hard to have much obligation) and both tech1 already anyway so it got glossed over since we already knew what we were doing. Cave deco is pretty damn esay compared to mid-water in the ocean tho.

[John Long]

Yeah, I'm trained in technical diving. It's called cave diving.

In my day, the things you learn in "Advanced Nitrox" and "Decompression Procedures" were taught during cave training. Of course, I learned decompression diving in NASDS Open Water.

Absolutely, Basic classes were taught differently in years past.

[skip]

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea of a class in cave conservation, geology etc. I just don't think it'd be a useful prerequisite to diving sensitive cave.

ah, well there we agree.

-skip

[Arnold Mesiser]

I believe it would becuase there may be things students don't even know are sensitive (like many post's Forrest has made on Geothite and people tying off ).

What I don't understand is if people are interested in diving caves-why they have not already taken it upon themselves to gain knowledge of karst.ANY karst education is a good thing I I fully believe it should be mandatory.

[mattmexico]

yo

There are areas such as in Mexico where the caves are quite shallow and the procedures and techniques of technical diving in terms of deep diving do not apply at most of the diving is done here.

During training lectures and discussion is included in the area of decompression diving but actual decompression dives are not done, or seldom done.

The technical diver program is used to either develope technical diver skill (vertical diving) in the cave or bring existing technical diving skill into the cave (horizontal) environment.

greetings
Matt

[SMB]

Hi Matt,
Sorry mate I do not agree with you.


There are areas such as in Mexico where the caves are quite shallow and the procedures and techniques of technical diving in terms of deep diving do not apply at most of the diving is done here.

Yes for the most part the coastal caves of Quintana Roo are relatively shallow but long dive times still incurr deco penalties.
I personally do many dives here that require deco and so do many others.

As for the rest of Mexico I think there may be one or 2 deep caves that may require a little bit of deco to dive :yawinkle:


During training lectures and discussion is included in the area of decompression diving but actual decompression dives are not done, or seldom done.

I include a decompression dive in all my full cave classes
I also know that other Instructors do as well
In my personal opinion as well as the lecture / discussion you actually have to get in the water and put the theory into practice
In fact I am going to Naharon tomorrow to complete the Deco dive for the cave class I am currently teaching

[DA Aquamaster]

I believe deco procedures should either be a prereq for full cave, or teach it with full cave, but use the apprentice course for how it was meant to be used (aka no zero to hero courses), make a diver show x number of dives before moving on, so they can gain experience. Just because you can demonstrate skills, without experience with diving they have not had a chance to handle issues. sorry alittle of topic.I agree. Training is essential, but you need experience to really apply and learn that training before you run off and get more training.


As my post mentioned, mine did. Only he didn't charge for it. His thinking is that decompression procedures are a part of cave diving.I completely agree, and learning deco procedures in a cave environment adds an important dimension in terms of having to plan for and work with the cave profile you have on a dive and in terms of gas selection.


Cave deco is pretty damn esay compared to mid-water in the ocean tho.Yes and no. Doing deco offshore in a ripping current and or with the boat heaving in 6 ft swells has its own challenges, but you have a lot more control over the dive profile and more flexibility in terms of deco gasses. Doing deco in a cave is potentially very easy - but only if you do the planning properly.

[rjack]

Yes and no. Doing deco offshore in a ripping current and or with the boat heaving in 6 ft swells has its own challenges, but you have a lot more control over the dive profile and more flexibility in terms of deco gasses. Doing deco in a cave is potentially very easy - but only if you do the planning properly.

To me its easy because my cave profile is so predictable hence the latter half of the dive is a natural continuation of the deeper portion. And there aren't cold hangs at 20ft on a SMB.

[Arnold Mesiser]

Alpine cave diving /diving through multiple sumps /and caves in other parts of the world may present deco problems that make wreck diving deco look simple.

Cave diving through ice must present some cold hangs/more adversity ;) I believe a nice video on such a subject was posted not long ago.

[rchrds]

I've always heard that cavern/cave IS technical diving. This came up at an NACD meeting awhile back when I suggested separating "recreational" cave diving from "technical" cave diving. I was roundly and soundly thrashed for entertaining the idea that any aspect of cavern/cave could be considered recreational.

I think the poll is not interested in such distinctions, rather simply wanting to know what tec training in addition to cave.

-skip

I have deleted my own post- I got into a rant about recreational cave divers vs non-recreational cave divers, which had not much to do with "technical" as it is being discussed in this thread. Read on.

:)

Jason

[imdown]

Did anybody else have trouble doing their "fin pivot" skill on trimix? hehe