A start for a Underwater Cave Conservation Booklet

[tj]

Cindy Butler gave me this idea... Let's start to make an underwater cave conservation booklet by posting your ideas, comments here.

For example, cave divers can help with conservation by:
- removing trash from caves
- not touching or damaging formations in caves
- perform the best buoyancy possible while diving

[FW]

- not touching or damaging formations in caves
- perform the best buoyancy possible while diving
Yes, and learning what can/can't be easily damaged, like Goethite. I have found a lot of cave divers that don't even know what it looks like.

[Cindy]

Not to mention proper management of our water sources..No prozac in the toilet, proper modern septic systems, preserving caves by not buying bottled spring water, Best management practices for homes, like how to landscape with native plants that don't require nitrate fertilizers...darn cave divers keep moving here.
Building steps to prevent soil wash that are made out of materials that do not damage the cave or critters.
Port potties at dive sites..hint hint...that keep the area cleaner. Alachua needs one.
Information booths at dive sites that inform about the caves and the environment. See the one at Cathedral..it needs to be at the rest of our caves. That's just a few.

[Cindy]

Yes, and learning what can/can't be easily damaged, like Goethite. I have found a lot of cave divers that don't even know what it looks like.

I have personally thought about some measures to preserve cave underwater using some dry caving techniques..
Why can't we put eye bolts in the ceiling at Cow or any other cave to keep the rope over in larger areas of the cave. Divers can use the pull rope off the floor that way.
everybody also needs to quit swimming over to look at the repairs..for crying out loud there are move finger and fin marks than ever!

[Kelly Jessop]

I have worked hard in this area in my tenure in the CDS by seeing some teaching standards ammended,and initiating the conservation phamplet,so I agree 100%. There are two areas that one would want to address,cave conservation and cave preservation. Conservation would be protecting the areas around the cave ie water quality etc. Preservation is reducing diver impact such as poor bouyancy,not identifying fragile structures etc. One thing that plagues me is I've read some of the teaching materials of some other agencies,and I see very little devoted to this subject. If the agency doesn't give it a strong emphasis,then what does that tell the student diver.

[FW]

...Why can't we put eye bolts in the ceiling at Cow or any other cave to keep the rope over in larger areas of the cave. Divers can use the pull rope off the floor that way....
We put bolts in Peacock, back in the '80s, to do just that. Some group decided that bolts were vandalism, so the practice was stopped.

...everybody also needs to quit swimming over to look at the repairs..for crying out loud there are move finger and fin marks than ever!..

I agree with that!

[Slüdge]

No prozac in the toilet

Somebody is going to have to explain this one to me...

[skip]

the fish get too lazy to eat or swim.

:yawinkle:

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/dec/fish-on-prozac1127

-skip

[Cindy]

Another good one is the hormones that are given to cows seeps into the cave systems from spray fields. I think Kelly told me this one. I read an article not long ago that stated it not only affected fish by causing deformities in their genitals. They think the milk we give our children is also making them mature sexually faster. It didn't say anything about Cave divers drinking the stuff.

[Cindy]

We put bolts in Peacock, back in the '80s, to do just that. Some group decided that bolts were vandalism, so the practice was stopped.

Like putting a big cement block in a clay floor isn't? Oh, not to mention the tie off on the goethite?
At least on the ceiling it will keep divers off the more delicate part of the floor in cow. There is a difference between surgery and mutilation. One way you heal the sick cave, the other you just allow it to die a slow death by diver.

Kelly and Gene Melton have both been outspoken, proactive and involved in what we have been talking about. They were able to help stop a huge new spray field over the Cathedral system. I'm just saying that 1/3 of the boards efforts needs to be in this area. If not more. I know they have spent more than that helping. I don't know about the rest of any of the BOD members. But as an organization it needs to be more in my opinion. I get to have one in this country,,,,,yeah for women's rights!!!

[skip]

We have a housing developer most likely buying state owned land with a sink on it (cow crap sink). The usual thing here is to fill them in, bulldoze the land as flat as possible, and build houses as if nothing was or is down there. What can be done to make some of these places protected? I think we all agree they should be. My emails to officials that are answered all basically say the same thing: that I don't have snowballs chance.

-skip

[JE]

We have a housing developer most likely buying state owned land with a sink on it (cow crap sink). The usual thing here is to fill them in, bulldoze the land as flat as possible, and build houses as if nothing was or is down there. What can be done to make some of these places protected? I think we all agree they should be. My emails to officials that are answered all basically say the same thing: that I don't have snowballs chance.

-skip

There are forces within the NSS/CDS & other entities in the Florida establishment that will take this developer to task & may very well stop him dead in his tracks-! All it takes is putting a plan into action & contacting the right people. "Luck is not a factor"-!

:mad:
je

[Attchoum]

here in mexico we lost a cenote few week ago. cenote palomita dont exist anymore. They come whit truck and bulldozer and fill the cenote whit congret. In one day it was done...

A very huge problem is that execept diver, no one know how important it is to conserve those cave. in fact, people dont even know that there cave there...

publicity and education will help for sure

my opinion

[DeepSea]

We have a housing developer most likely buying state owned land with a sink on it (cow crap sink). The usual thing here is to fill them in, bulldoze the land as flat as possible, and build houses as if nothing was or is down there. What can be done to make some of these places protected? I think we all agree they should be. My emails to officials that are answered all basically say the same thing: that I don't have snowballs chance.

-skip

Skip...Are there state laws that prohibit cave vandalism? If so, you would need an attorney to sue the developer or state agency permitting the developer...

[DeepSea]

here in mexico we lost a cenote few week ago. cenote palomita dont exist anymore. They come whit truck and bulldozer and fill the cenote whit congret. In one day it was done...

A very huge problem is that execept diver, no one know how important it is to conserve those cave. in fact, people dont even know that there cave there...

publicity and education will help for sure

my opinion

There are some things being done in your area. However, looking up and down 307 (on both sides) money will speak the loudest.

Check out www.saverivieramaya.org Nancy De Rosa and Marti Johnston are doing as much as they can to help educate the government regarding the importance of the cenotes.

[DeepSea]

cenote palomita dont exist anymore.

Cenote Palomita (Chemuyil) collapsed on 2.4.2009.

The following is a press release sent out by S.A.V.E.


Cenote Palomita collapses
One of the beautiful works that nature has given to this particular zone, Cenote Palomita has been deformed for life and has become a beating threat. Thousands of years are necessary to create and garnish a cenote; but the wrong decision of an “engineer” caused destruction in a matter of minutes.

Yesterday, while CAPA was performing excavations to place water pipes on the road going behind Chemuyil, they began work over the cenote's dry chamber. A strike from the digging machine caused the roof to collapse bringing down the stalactites, crushing the stalagmites and destroying other formations.

It is quite important to remember that over the last 8 months the danger of collapse caused by the pass of machinery above the cenote was mentioned. Now that the collapse has begun, the road that passes above the cenote should be closed. Proper studies must be done to avoid further collapse to the road and completely assure no human's life will be lost.

The Cenote Palomita is a part of the system that connects Dos Ojos, y Nohoch Nachic with Casa Cenote that leads to the sea. These underground river systems are vast and complex. Let's remember that we have only recently learned that the underground river streams don’t necessarily flow towards the sea but web in a complex net that can flow in any direction.

We still don't know how this change will affect the system, what we do know is that diving in Cenote Palomita and its surroundings is now impossible due to the imminent risk of collapse. The community of Chemuyil is to be informed about the danger of driving on that road. We can't allow these environmental attacks to continue happening.

[skip]

Skip...Are there state laws that prohibit cave vandalism? If so, you would need an attorney to sue the developer or state agency permitting the developer...

sinkholes with submerged caves are not protected, but some dry caves are. frankly I do not know all the regulations and what they may or may not cover (although the majority of sinkholes around here are filled with junk, garbage, building debris, old cars, boulders, trees and anything else landowners can throw in them to fill them in). we have a state grant program to help fence them off so cattle and kids won't fall in - presumably to stop the contamination of ground water (fence instead of fill).

we do have some regulations concerning what needs to be done before landowners can get permission to "alter the course of a stream." i wonder if a sinkhole with spring and siphon vents would count? they stopped parts of a new highway near here, at least in the short term, but it's costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and a huge volunteer organizaton, hired attorneys, etc.

-skip

[FW]

... they stopped parts of a new highway near here, at least in the short term, but it's costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and a huge volunteer organizaton, hired attorneys, etc.

-skip
It might be worth it, just to make the point, and stop damage to other caves.

[Kelly Jessop]

There are some things being done in your area. However, looking up and down 307 (on both sides) money will speak the loudest.

Check out www.saverivieramaya.org Nancy De Rosa and Marti Johnston are doing as much as they can to help educate the government regarding the importance of the cenotes.

Sure need to. If you ever have seen the development plan for Playa Del Carmen region that was exhibited by Jim Coke,then you can plan on a lot of systems disappearing.

[Cindy]

We have a housing developer most likely buying state owned land with a sink on it (cow crap sink). The usual thing here is to fill them in, bulldoze the land as flat as possible, and build houses as if nothing was or is down there. What can be done to make some of these places protected? I think we all agree they should be. My emails to officials that are answered all basically say the same thing: that I don't have snowballs chance.

-skip

Does the cave go anywhere sensitive, say connect to a river that is protected, or near the water supply for a city. That worked for Alachua. How about endangered species?
In Florida there is a law that you cannot build within 50 feet of a water filled sink. It will soon be 100. If you have any law like that you should be OK. They can't fill it in. Buy part of the area when it's developed and protect access that way. Let me think on it. I may be able to come up with more. Cindy

[skip]

no, no endangered species (although I am working on the "in need of management" angle). No nearby water supply river rules or laws... and no laws about what you can or can not do with waterfilled sinks (filling them in is the standard practice for developers). but maybe it's time to launch an effort to get state legislation on that one....no building within 50 feet of a water filled sink....and no filling in before building either. instead of trying to stop this one hole from being filled in, it might be better to quietly work on state reps without them really paying much attention to the implications for developers...how building too near a sink is a bad thing for home buyers who then may have the ground fall out from under them.

that could be interesting. i do have a lawyer friend who works for environmental groups, but he charges a hefty fee and would not do anything pro bono - "friend" was a bit strong of a word! he might clue me in to current legislation, stuff he's been trying to get passed, and thus clues to how to go about it.

thanks for the ideas.

-skip

[FW]

Actually Skip, a nice clean subdivision might be better for that poor cave, than the dairy farm. That is, if they don't try to fill it in. There are a couple of solutions there as well. You could offer to buy the lot that the spring sits on, or convince them it would be a nice "green space" that would help them sell the rest of the lots. The bottom line is education. Educating the landowners works just as well as trying to educate the government. In the long run, educating the government would best for the whole state. A good letter writing campaign to the state couldn't hurt. Not just about Cow Crap Sink, but all groundwater issues.

[Arnold Mesiser]

If the subdivision is going to have wells for the houses then maybe the aquifer as a water supply might make them see the light-mind you the name "cow crap cave " might be counter productive but illustrate well one method of contamination.

If they can preserve the natural sink area and clean the infeeders=they preserve the water supply.

Is there no provision in the building code in that area to prevent building on unstable land? That is about the only protection for karst that we have here other than rare species.

I loved the video you shared of the system,beautiful to see!


good luck

BTW I can send reference to a report about the deaths in Walkerton ,Ontario caused by e coli getting into the aquifer/water supply due to karst if you think it might help.

ANY precedence set in an area can help ALL our karst areas have some ammunition to fight karst destruction.

[Cindy]

Sent to me by one of the groups I visit.
Dear Working Group Members,



Senate Bill 274 sponsored by Senator Constantine addresses several issues of concern associated with damage that has been documented at many the Florida’s 700 springs.



The bill would enact new regulations that would

• Upgrade septic systems

• Improve stormwater management

• Reduce fertilizer pollution



You can view the bill at: http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Mode=Bills&ElementID=JumpToBox&SubMenu=1&Year=2009&billnum=274



The Senate Community Affairs Committee is scheduled to vote on SB-274 on Monday April 6 at 9 am.

If you wish to have these elected officials know of your wishes associated with SB-274, you may contact the committee members. Here’s a link to the committee’s webpage with the member’s contact information.

http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/View_Page.pl?Tab=committees&Submenu=1&File=index.html&Directory=committees/senate/CA/



For information on other proposed bills that may have impacts springs, go to http://sfspringswg.blogspot.com/search/label/Legislation



Ondine



Ondine Wells

Facilitator, Santa Fe Springs Working Group



Communications Specialist

Pandion Systems, Inc.

102 NE 10th Avenue, 1st Floor

Gainesville, FL 32601



Phone: 352.372.4747 x3002

Fax: 352.372.4714

Email: owells@pandionsystems.com

Web: www.pandionsystems.com



The purpose of the Santa Fe Springs Basin Working Group (SFSWG) is to create a forum in which professionals, government agencies, and the public can learn about and discuss issues and activities that can affect the quality and quantity of water in Poe, Ginnie, Hornsby and Gilchrist Blue Springs and their contributing areas in Alachua, Gilchrist and Columbia Counties. For more information, please see http://santaferiversprings.com/

[Cindy]

no, no endangered species (although I am working on the "in need of management" angle). No nearby water supply river rules or laws... and no laws about what you can or can not do with waterfilled sinks (filling them in is the standard practice for developers). but maybe it's time to launch an effort to get state legislation on that one....no building within 50 feet of a water filled sink....and no filling in before building either. instead of trying to stop this one hole from being filled in, it might be better to quietly work on state reps without them really paying much attention to the implications for developers...how building too near a sink is a bad thing for home buyers who then may have the ground fall out from under them.

that could be interesting. i do have a lawyer friend who works for environmental groups, but he charges a hefty fee and would not do anything pro bono - "friend" was a bit strong of a word! he might clue me in to current legislation, stuff he's been trying to get passed, and thus clues to how to go about it.

thanks for the ideas.

-skip

Skip, another thought. Is the sale a done deal? In Florida there has to be a hearing prior to selling any state lands. They might now know about the cave at that level. You could present something to them. Include maps and photos. They love that stuff. Cindy

[DeepSea]

Senate Bill 274 sponsored by Senator Constantine addresses several issues of concern associated with damage that has been documented at many the Florida’s 700 springs.


All...

There are two springs bills in the Senate this year. Senate Bill 274 (Sen. Constantine’s bill) is the stronger of the two, this is the one we need to have passed. SB 274 is up for vote at 9AM on Monday, April 6. If you are going to do something, do it tonight. Developer lobbyists are desperately trying to kill this bill!

Here is who you need to contact (Senate Community Affairs Committee):

Sen. Thad Altman Melbourne (850) 487-5053 altman.thad.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Michael Bennett (Chair) Bradenton (850) 487-5078 bennett.mike.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Ted Deutch Delray Beach (850) 487-5091 deutch.ted.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Rudy Garcia Hialeah (850) 487-5106 garcia.rudy.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Andy Gardiner Orlando (850) 487-5047 gardiner.andy.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Anthony C. Hill Jacksonville (850) 487-5024 hill.tony.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Jeremy Ring Margate (850) 487-5094 ring.jeremy.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Gary Siplin (Vice-Chair) Orlando (850) 487-5190 siplin.gary.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Ronda Storms Brandon (850) 487-5072 storms.ronda.web@flsenate.gov
Sen. Stephen R. Wise Jacksonville (850) 487-5027 wise.stephen.web@flsenate.gov

Also, this is a very good flyer (http://audubonoffloridanews.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/springs-flyer.pdf) put out by Audubon Florida.

[skip]

Lots of good ideas here to keep me busy investigating possibilities!

Cindy, I don't know if they will have a public hearing or not. The land is for sale, at least it has been decided to sell it, and everyone knows about it. I don't know if they had a hearing or found a buyer. Partly it's my own lack of awareness - where do you find out these things? So far, the land is still under university control (a dairy farm), until money is available to move the cows. But they could have sold it already with the understanding that owners can't take over until cows are moved. However, I don't think so.

The chair of the ag dept and director of experimental farms have been talking to me quite a bit the last month or so and as far as they know, it's not been sold or turned over to the state for selling. I will for sure attend and address any meetings or hearings concerning the property if I know when and where and take video's/pictures, etc.

I still like the idea of springs protection act here in Tennessee, so am also checking into the links you posted and have found some other things that florida has been doing and some that tennessee has on paper too.

I gave a talk to the ag dept last week about the sink on the dairy farm (about 30 students and faculty attended), with video and powerpoint, and they were all amazed that the little cow drinking hole had so much going on underground. So you are right - most people have no clue and get real interested when you show them!

But man is it a time-consuming process....educating the public is a full time job!

-skip

[rjack]

I definitely agree that outright destruction (filling, collapse, etc) are really huge problems.

Fortunately, there are plenty of resources about water quality degradation of aquifers in karst. They do need to be translated into persuasive english tho. I am wondering if a more formal "Kleen Karst" (my copyright lol) type of brochure might be helpful. Something that all the training/conservation agencies could get behind and then distribute to both the public, landowners and lawmakers when things like this TN dairy farm sale come up.

A one page brochure discussing all the ways karst aquifers are valuable and all the ways they can be degraded (with pictures) would be a great addition to our collective educational efforts.

Do we have any public outreach / graphic design people here?

[skip]

Cindy Butler gave me this idea... Let's start to make an underwater cave conservation booklet by posting your ideas, comments here.

For example, cave divers can help with conservation by:
- removing trash from caves
- not touching or damaging formations in caves
- perform the best buoyancy possible while diving

I think maybe this thread was highjacked. The CDS and the NACD both have conservation brochures - is another one needed? or is the idea to create something more than a brochure (a booklet)?

Given the three items above - what needs to be added to them in terms of details? what needs to be added as more items?

Maybe

- removing trash from the parking areas, boardwalks, and paths?
- not collecting rock or fossil samples?
- a sign-in book (and sign-out)? the book at each dive site, to include space for comments like (i lost it and made a handprint, or i did a pull and glide and broke a chunk, my tank valves hit the ceiling three times).
- cleaning gear of resident flora before leaving the site? or before going to another site?

-skip

[skip]

Looks like me and rjack were putting this thread back on track at the same time!

-skip

[Cindy]

Please excuse if I repeat myself.
Things that can be done.
1 Educational signs at dive sites. Educational kiosk at parks near or part of dive sites. More public education.
2 The agencies can put on outreach workshops. (We put a one day public outreach here in Alachua. It cost $100 for the room. We did handouts around the city. We had some great speakers who were thrilled to get to talk ie the State Geologist. Pete Butt talking about dye tracings. Annette Long talking about parking lot run off. Local activist and friend talking about the local laws. The state environmental public outreach director who wrote most of the best management practice laws. So many of those people are just excited to share their information.
We ignore those great resources so much.)
3 Increase Public awareness at state parks and our dive sites. We have been part of a joint partnership with these clean ups. Brain Williams has and is doing a great job on teaching people. All you have to do to find out who some of these people are is look at the state agency website. Each state has an EPA, Public information department. Florida has a state Springs education group. Wes and Jim Stevenson are a part of it.
4. A team or group that is knowledgeable in cave repairs and management who can be contacted when a cave is damaged and either fix it or give information on how it should be done.
5 build a bridge or cross educations to groups like Save our Suannee, the Nature Conservancy, Alachua forever, Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, etc. The Sierra club people showed up with experts in Nitrates and the health affect on people when we were working to protect Alachua Sink. Too often these organizations forget we cave divers are here. We can be a great resource for each other.


Skip, on cow crap cave,
To find out who really owns land. All you have to do is get on the site for land taxes and it will tell you. If it's the state then get online and find out who is the man in charge of the sales and management of that area. Set up a meeting. If it's a developer just do the same. Your lucky if it's a developer because he has to pull several permits before he can develop the area. Each step will have notifications and meeting where the public can object and give testimony why a permit should not be allowed. Most of them buy land with the option that if one permit can't go through the sale doesn't go through. Lots of wiggle room there. Water management, county permits, city permits, DEP permits. All kinds of ways to have a go at stopping or at the very least raising the awareness that a valuable resource is about to be lost. If you get the word out and they still want the development then at least you have given people the information so they can make an informed decision.

[Arnold Mesiser]

Are pamphlets like this freely available to people in Florida and Tennessee ?

http://www.caveconservancyofvirginia.org/livingonkarst/living_on_karst_ccv_1997_booklet.pdf

[Cindy]

Are pamphlets like this freely available to people in Florida and Tennessee ?

http://www.caveconservancyofvirginia.org/livingonkarst/living_on_karst_ccv_1997_booklet.pdf

Actually they do. It is available here. And it's online and pretty:
http://www.floridasprings.org/
You can also go to:http://www.dep.state.fl.us/secretary/ed/
or http://www.dep.state.fl.us/geology/default.htm
I can bet that Tenn. has a page like it also. They have one or two caves up there. :)

We have plenty of info, it's just getting people to get into it, use it and help get the community vested in seeing caves and sinks as an opportunity instead of a hazard.

[skip]

Cindy, MTSU is the official property owner as of now. Usually how it works around here is someone offers to buy it, gets all the permit stuff out of the way, or agrees to buy it pending no problems with planned use. Sale to X developer announced, but there is no meetings about use or what is going to happen to the land, no more than if I bought a house. The land has already been designated prime housing/apartment real estate - it's where all the major stores have recently built a huge new shopping, where the future of building in the city is headed, where it's already built up around it leaving the small dairy farm like an oasis in housing and mall desert. I'm pretty sure that if and when it's sold there will be a hearing or two, but this is not some country acreage, it's already been zoned by the city and it's right in town and "they" already know exactly what will become of it. They just haven't told anyone yet.

And although Tennessee has many organizations, state and private, doing water quality work, conservation, etc., there are no brochures about springs, groundwater, aquifers, what farmers, landowners can do, etc. If it's your land, you do what you want. We are still in the dark ages here.

-skip

[Cindy]

Skip: start here. http://www.tennessee.gov/environment/
Housing developments are just like stores. They have a ruling body. Either at the county or City level. It's probably agricultural land now. They will have to change the zoneing. It takes a lot of work to find out about meeting and community legal boards but it will be worth it if you can at least protect the cave. You will not be able to stop development but you might either get the developer to donate the sink or at least stay away from it. Sometimes being a squeaky wheel get you farther than anything. Calling the local papers will help..This isn't the type of thing you can just say Oh Well..There isn't going to be one person you can contact. Get someone to help you.