Looking for info, books, websites on surveying u/w caves

[DiveBandit]

Looking for info, books, and websites on surveying u/w caves. Just picked up a yellow book put out by the NSS-CDS ( underwater cave surveying) which was a great read, but doesn't seem to have been updated since 1990. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Dave.

[Kelly Jessop]

Looking for info, books, and websites on surveying u/w caves. Just picked up a yellow book put out by the NSS-CDS ( underwater cave surveying) which was a great read, but doesn't seem to have been updated since 1990. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Dave.


Unlike other cave books that have halogen lights,and air tables,the book on cave surveying holds its age well. I'd recommend www.cavesurvey.com. One of the best ways to learn surveying is join up with someone who has experience at doing it. Then actually do some surveying,and see how you do when you close a loop.

[aainslie]

I spent a lot of time worrying about this stuff. But it turns out that it's mainly commonsense. It also helps to remember that you're really doing simple trig most of the time. I found it useful to first convert length and depth into horizontal and vertical components (horizontal = (length^2 - depth^2)^0.5,and of course vertical is just the differences in depth at each end) and then take that horizontal piece and convert it into north and west components (north = horizontal * cos(bearing), west = - horizontal * sin(bearing).) You can actually do this easily in Excel. If you're fussy remember mag dev, and don't EVER worry about great circle adjustments, our distances are just way too small. Unless you've just found a 20 mile long cave - in which case, spill the beans, buddy! :)

The actual taking of measurements just needs practice. One thing I didn't do that I really started regretting was setting up a few datum points so that if you start surveying a jump or T it's easy to locate relative to the datum. I had to resurvey sections sometimes because I sort of got lost... useful as it turned out as I improved the accuracy of some points.

That little yellow book is excellent btw. Apparently there's some free mapping software out there, perhaps someone can chime in and give its name.

[Kelly Jessop]

I spent a lot of time worrying about this stuff. But it turns out that it's mainly commonsense. It also helps to remember that you're really doing simple trig most of the time. I found it useful to first convert length and depth into horizontal and vertical components (horizontal = (length^2 - depth^2)^0.5,and of course vertical is just the differences in depth at each end) and then take that horizontal piece and convert it into north and west components (north = horizontal * cos(bearing), west = - horizontal * sin(bearing).) You can actually do this easily in Excel. If you're fussy remember mag dev, and don't EVER worry about great circle adjustments, our distances are just way too small. Unless you've just found a 20 mile long cave - in which case, spill the beans, buddy! :)

The actual taking of measurements just needs practice. One thing I didn't do that I really started regretting was setting up a few datum points so that if you start surveying a jump or T it's easy to locate relative to the datum. I had to resurvey sections sometimes because I sort of got lost... useful as it turned out as I improved the accuracy of some points.

That little yellow book is excellent btw. Apparently there's some free mapping software out there, perhaps someone can chime in and give its name.

I think sometimes people are too stingy with survey stations which result in having to back track for side tunnels

There is some great software out there,and some is more cave diving friendly. I like On station which is free

[FW]

Be sure to get a program that accepts depths. Some software only accepts inclination.

This is a link to what Kelly mentioned, On Station:
http://shatterthefog.googlepages.com/onstation

This is another useful program:
http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/Walls/tsswalls.htm

[rchrds]

Walls. Ack. That program is a HUGE pain in the ass, but it really does do some amazing things, none of which you will ever need starting out. I am currently RE-learning it, because I finally have found that I need some of its special features, namely round-tripping (allows you to shift and adjust drawings when you close a loop and the shape changes due to loop error without actually redrawing) NOT an easy program to roll into without help.

Some other options-

http://www.fountainware.com/compass/ Compass cave software- I have not personally used it, but many do- though not for diving, that I have heard. I am not aware it will accept dive depths out of the box.

http://www.survex.com/ Survex- yet another program I have not used, but the brits seem to like it- I hear a lot about it in dry caving circles.

http://www.europa.com/~gp/winkarst.html Winkarst- this is the one I have been using for some time- It also does not currently interpret dive depths, though Garry Petrie, the designer sent me a new version that does do depths. Unfortunately, it will not cross between elevation and depth, so a sump is a new survey, which is a little difficult to work out. Last I heard Garry was working on a Vista version, which should involve quite a few upgrades. The nice part about this program is that it can be exported to ArcGIS, which is how I plot things on topo maps accurately. Walls will also, BTW, and for that matter, so will Compass, according to the website, via a KML file, which ArcGIS will now read, as of the last version. Winkarst has its quirks, some which are quite annoying, but so far, it has worked the best for me.

If you have any programming background at all and like entering code, you would be well served to learn the details of Walls- it has done some amazing things with very large cave systems, and does integrate dive depths into the survey- and even mixes depths with elevations- so you can continue your dry survey into the water.

In addition to the yellow book, which is a pretty good primer, I would definately pick up On Station, and read and learn how the dry cavers do it. We have a long way to go with our underwater technique as far as increasing accuracy, and we are starting to get there with the digital compasses available (X1!!) that will work underwater, and other tools (sonar range finder) But good tools are only part of the package, and organization to your survey and sketching system is absolutely critical to a good survey. If you are measuring with tape for accuracy (required for Grade 3 or better) you will need a buddy who knows what is going on and can anticipate what needs to come next. If you are only counting knots, you can turn in a marginally accurate map and survey doing the whole thing solo.

What you do with the data after you gather it is a whole 'nother story.... For a good reference on using illustrator (becoming the defacto standard for cave maps) check this:

http://incavedigitalsurvey.com/board/YaBB.pl?num=1192498613

This is a link to Brandon's fantastic series of Tutorials on how to draw cave maps with Illustrator. I switched from hand drafting to Illustrator with these videos- they are awesome.


There are lots and lots of details that will help you out that you wont get from a book, but that shouldn't stop you from trying everything out! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, or drop me a line,

Jason Richards
rchrds@charter.net

[Kelly Jessop]

(sonar range finder) ]



The only problem I found with these is if the walls are not relatively flat,then you don't get an accurate return signal,if at all. Also,I found using one to survey large passage like downstream Indian,if wouldn't get any return signal due to range. It is slow,but you can't beat pulling tape for accuracy.

[Slüdge]

Speaking of which, I loaned my sonar to someone a year or so ago. I haven't seen it since.

Does anybody on here have it?

[FW]

Speaking of which, I loaned my sonar to someone a year or so ago. I haven't seen it since.

Does anybody on here have it?
So now you want it back?

[DiveBandit]

Excellent information, thanks. I especially like the idea of drawing the maps in Illustrator, which I use now. Thanks again everybody.

[apitkin]

I didn't realize that some people still do this stuff the old (laborious) way! Excel files, trigonometry, forget it. There's loads of free software to do this which will reduce the chance of you making an error - and eventually you will if you do it all by hand.

I would put in a vote for Compass. It accepts depths in the form of change in depth for each survey shot. It is extremely versatile, good for both small and large survey projects, and keeps the data in a text file that can still be read if you don't have the original program.

It also exports dxf files that can be imported into Illustrator when you want to draw the final map.

The only downside is that it doesn't run on a Mac. Well, not when it's a Mac, anyway.

I'd also recommend you get a copy of On Station.

Andy

[Luxrok]

Dave welcome to the wonderful world of underwater cave survey. My feelings have ranged from pulling my hair out to unsurpassed elation and satisfaction.

To start with, I took two courses for survey and plan to take a third. The first course was with Stave Bogaerts. The course focused on solo knotted line survey resulting in hand drawn and Compass drawn stick maps. I learned the principles and techniques needed to collect accurate survey in the range of +-1 foot and +-2degrees. The course was three days, it was awesome. We built up my survey tools and took some survey together. Then we compared our results and I hand drew my maps. The maps were of the guide lines. Following that course, I went out a surveyed a bunch of cave. I started by resurveying existing line and closing loops. Eventually, I moved onto my own project, which I am still working on. So far I have collected just about 4000ft of survey in some very beautiful sidemount cave. The project has required the relinning of existing passage, which has slowed me down. Surveying line with improve your ability to lay line. Once you try to survey ugly line a couple of times, you will really think about what you are doing.

I store all my data in a note book in raw form and then converted form. I also have the data in Compass and I have imported it into Google Earth. All very exciting. It is awesome to see your work starting to result in something useful.

The second course I took was a one day workshop with Matt from Protec. I took the course to concentrate on turning my survey data into an artistic rendition of the cave. Instead of drawing the line, I wanted to learn how to he drew the cave from survey data and turned it into a production quality product. One of these days I will write about my experience with Matt. It was enlightening. I took the workshop with two other gentlemen who seriously struggled with the data collection phase. I have to admit that I greatly benefited from having mastered the data collection skills prior to trying to draw a map of the cave. My ability to focus on the artistic nature of the endeavor was the result of not being overly tasked by the data collection.

The third course I want to take is Cartography with Bil Philips in Tulum. Bil is responsible for a couple of the maps we use here in the Rivera Maya and I want to learn his techniques for sketching the cave underwater. My survey partner and I are planning on creating a cave map of our project cave over the next couple of years and I want to use the best possible techniques for sketching.

Caveat Emptor! Underwater survey is a DANGEROUS activity. You are most likely in a hostile environment and the act of collecting data with precise instruments underwater can be extremely tasking loading and result in significant perceptual narrowing. My survey partner and I have both suffered this sense of a bending of time while working on a survey. It feels like you have been in the water for 5 minutes and 50 minutes has passed. If you don't stop and look around and check your gauges every couple of stations you may find you run low on gas. I have gone in the water and emerged 3 hours later without batting an eye. Time is suspended when I am concentrating that hard.

You can read a little about cave survey here (http://www.quietdiver.com/371/surveying-while-cave-diving-is-difficult.html).

Our work is on going and I am learning all the time.

Hans

[Attchoum]

hans
you need to show me how it's work before I leave so I can do survey if I found some cave in quebec.
etienne

[Arnold Mesiser]

hans
you need to show me how it's work before I leave so I can do survey if I found some cave in quebec.
etienne


I am sure the QSS or members would have no problem showing you.You can even take the QSS survey course.


http://www.speleo.qc.ca/


or other groups

# Speleo Club de Quebec in Quebec region
Contact: Eric Hamel at bhamel@webnet.qu.ca
Web: http://www.multimania.com/scq/

# CASQUE (SE)
Contact: Alain Racicot at le.casque@videotron.ca

[mpoucher]

First, I wanted to mention that my website www.cavesurvey.com is down - I had a hard drive crash and the website was corrupted in the process.

As far as software, onstation is very intuitive and easy to use. You can get started very quickly getting data in and it accepts depths directly. If all you want is a line plot, it would be the way to go. If you want to include sidewalls amd more advanced functions, it has quirks which you can work around, but can be very confusing for a beginner.

Compass is more difficult to learn and is not as intuitive in creating and maintaining files. It works with the diference in depth from station to station so you have to calculate that. Using the difference has an advantage in that you don't have to be concerned with changes in the absolute depth due to tides or hydrostatic head. Compass also does a lot with sidewall modeling and being able to export to dxf or GIS formats. I plan to switch one of these days.

I draw my maps by hand and then scan them, import them to Corel or Autocad and add the lettering and clean them up. Any minor additions are added in Corel or Autocad.